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Old 28 May 2020, 03:48 AM   #61
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Again, I didn’t see that anyone made such a comment. If I did hear it, again, I'd agree with you. Of course they don’t deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Absolutely not. Not even with an “asterisk.” I don’t know if this is against forum rules or not, but I’ll put it out here and mods can decide: I am a black man, and as such, I DEPLORE Barry Bonds for cheating Henry Aaron out of his title in the record books. Aaron defied death threats and went on to achieve what he did, simply to be topped by a cheat. Supreme disrespect. Like I said, those who cheated should not even have their names uttered in Cooperstown.
Maybe not here but I have heard the remark about the Hall of Fame come up from time to time. How about the once MVP for the Brewers that no longer plays up to the stats he was once able to using drugs? But that all kind of goes toward my argument as to what kind of S*** Show sports in general have become.

Regardless of what Aaron had to put up with and I don't by any means wish to be little his struggle Bond's route to getting there just isn't deserving because he cheated to get there. It's just too bad that record which now unfortunately exists in the Hall of Fame. That's bad enough, but he certainly isn.t deserving to have his bust there as well. Frankly I think they should take the record from him as well.
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Old 29 May 2020, 02:47 AM   #62
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There seems to be some pretty knowledgeable people here with respect to bicycle racing. Just out of curiosity, what do you think LA's legacy would be if he never doped, assuming nothing else changed during his career? What would his legacy be if neither he, nor anyone else, doped during his career?
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Old 29 May 2020, 05:22 AM   #63
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There seems to be some pretty knowledgeable people here with respect to bicycle racing. Just out of curiosity, what do you think LA's legacy would be if he never doped, assuming nothing else changed during his career? What would his legacy be if neither he, nor anyone else, doped during his career?
He was once engaged to Sheryl Crow.
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Old 30 May 2020, 01:16 AM   #64
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He was once engaged to Sheryl Crow.
He was WAAAAY over-chicked
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Old 30 May 2020, 01:52 AM   #65
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He was once engaged to Sheryl Crow.
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Old 30 May 2020, 01:52 AM   #66
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He was WAAAAY over-chicked


I think I get the point.

But without the doping, would he ever have been engaged to Sheryl Crow, or have been over-chicked?
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Old 30 May 2020, 03:04 AM   #67
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He was once engaged to Sheryl Crow.
He also dated one of the Olsen twins. That's like a 20 year age gap.
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Old 30 May 2020, 03:53 AM   #68
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You can not ascertain what cycling or Armstrong’s career would look like if he and his teammates were not involved in doping. Without question, he would not have been nearly as successful; that is not in doubt. Armstrong never possessed the horsepower, in terms of VO2 max, of say, Greg LeMond or Bernard Hinult.
My point would focus on Armstrong’s megalomaniac personality that bordered on sociopathology. He used and abused many of those he befriended or those that threatened his world. I personally know a cyclist that Armstrong threatened with revealing a childhood tragedy. I have yet to see an attempt at redemption or and honest apology without blaming others for his choices in life.
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Old 30 May 2020, 05:10 AM   #69
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You can not ascertain what cycling or Armstrong’s career would look like if he and his teammates were not involved in doping. Without question, he would not have been nearly as successful; that is not in doubt. Armstrong never possessed the horsepower, in terms of VO2 max, of say, Greg LeMond or Bernard Hinult.
My point would focus on Armstrong’s megalomaniac personality that bordered on sociopathology. He used and abused many of those he befriended or those that threatened his world. I personally know a cyclist that Armstrong threatened with revealing a childhood tragedy. I have yet to see an attempt at redemption or and honest apology without blaming others for his choices in life.
Though I agree that Armstrong was not as physically talented as the guys you named (and scores more), there is something to be said for the personality type. I’m not talking about the sociopathic personality, but rather, the must win personality. The determination to win. There’s a reason we don’t measure VO2 max, chart it, then hand out medals based on that. It doesn’t work that way. You’ve still got to compete. As a cyclist, you know how bad that shit hurts. You also know some guys shut it down when it starts to hurt like that, and some guys soldier through the pain. That’s why we show up in the start line, to see who’s got the best combination of fitness and determination. So I agree, not as successful as he was, but then again, if everyone were clean, who would’ve beat him?
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Old 31 May 2020, 12:18 AM   #70
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It wasn’t about one athlete’s enhanced ability; it was an entire systematic team of cheaters with the sole purpose of an Armstrong victory. Without question, modern teams are dependent on all members to contribute to the leaders success. Armstrong had an iron hand in the team members complete dedication to him with threats and manipulation; from the team doctors to the masseuse. There were also many indicators that officials helped the team with advanced notices for drug testing and potential drug manipulations.
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Old 31 May 2020, 01:37 AM   #71
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It wasn’t about one athlete’s enhanced ability; it was an entire systematic team of cheaters with the sole purpose of an Armstrong victory. Without question, modern teams are dependent on all members to contribute to the leaders success. Armstrong had an iron hand in the team members complete dedication to him with threats and manipulation; from the team doctors to the masseuse. There were also many indicators that officials helped the team with advanced notices for drug testing and potential drug manipulations.
From the sounds of it wasn't just the team or even just the competitors but the sport or at least that particular venue that saw great value in an American winning which in turn would generate immense revenue.
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Old 31 May 2020, 11:50 AM   #72
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Just to be clear, Greg LeMond didn’t dope.
I’m sorry. You cannot really believe this, can you?

Nobody has won the Tour or the Giro or Vuelta in the 35+ years that I’ve been watching cycling without some level of assistance.

Lemond’s whiter than white nonsense is just ridiculous.
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Old 1 June 2020, 10:15 AM   #73
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Greg LeMond was an incredibly talented cyclist. He was winning races at every stage of his career. I believe he would have won four or five Tours if he was not shot. On the other hand, Armstrong was much less regarded as a cyclist, even during his Tour run, he did not participate on the full pro cycling circuit; instead riding only the premier events. Lastly, Lemond’s physical abilities were off the chart, with a lung capacity that could utilize oxygen almost 10% better than Armstrong. I raced with LeMond and never saw any evidence of doping.
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Old 1 June 2020, 12:51 PM   #74
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I’m sorry. You cannot really believe this, can you?

Nobody has won the Tour or the Giro or Vuelta in the 35+ years that I’ve been watching cycling without some level of assistance.

Lemond’s whiter than white nonsense is just ridiculous.
There's never been a shred of evidence that LeMond ever doped nor any credible accusation that's supportable, yet his consistent career arc and measurable physical attributes like lung capacity support his winning talent. Watching cycling for 35+ years and holding a cynic's view that automatically casts shade at any winner including a generational talent isn't evidence.

I personally know a few pro (multiple NHL hockey, 1 NFL, 2 MLB) and Olympic (hockey, XC skiing) athletes, and the notion that ALL athletes at the highest levels resort to doping isn't reality.

The Olympic XC skier, in a sport that mostly relies on pure physical capacity/strength and technique in a combination of sprinting, hill climbing, endurance (sort of like pro cycling), who helped represented the US Team at 3 Winter Olympics, was a natural talent that allowed his training and relentless hard work to enhance his natural ability on an arc and level well past the usual plateaus that normally limit the "pretty talented" or "very good" no matter hard they train. My friend didn't even get on a pair of XC skies until he was a teenager, but from the outset needed very little coaching on the finer points of technique and his weight and cardio training regimen returned performance rewards that far exceeded the rest of us "very good" athletic types who trained right alongside him. To look at him, you'd never believe he was a world class athlete unless you measured his body fat or watched this "skinny" guy outlift the bulked-up football player/bodybuilder types in a weight room.

Some people are just born to excel if a sport they choose matches their particular potential and forte'. He didn't win any gold medals, but does this mean the Norwegians who usually did were involved in a massive doping regimen just because around the same time sprinters in the Summer Olympics were? I think not.
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Old 1 June 2020, 01:18 PM   #75
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Anyone watching 30 for 30 on Lance?

Armstrong ruined cycling for me

But the ultimate truth is, if he would have stopped at 6 Tour de France wins he would have gotten away with it

As much as he is a scum bag, they destroyed him because he had the audacity to win 7 tours

The jealousy and hatred he got from the French and the Europeans for winning their precious race is almost as despicable as his cheating

I think cyclist cheat just as much now but they make sure they do not win to many tours, the concentrate on cashing in and making money instead

Armstrong fatal flaw was not the he was a cheater but that he HAD TO WIN at any cost, he had to win 7 instead of just cashing in



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Old 1 June 2020, 01:20 PM   #76
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Watching tonight, there was an incident in the family kitchen where Lance cut his finger, and for all the world, he acted as though it had never happened to him before. At one point, after a calling a doctor friend who advised him to just wrap it up, he was using electrical tape.

Odd.
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Old 1 June 2020, 02:47 PM   #77
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I watched part one and two tonight. Armstrong came across as a narcissistic sociopath and just an all around bad person. It’s one thing to get caught then lie and try and being people down with you is pathetic.
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Old 1 June 2020, 02:56 PM   #78
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Near the end, he included himself in a list of “cycling victims” of the doping drama.

Until he deals with that deficit of self-awareness, he is lost to the ash heap of cheaters who are unrepentant.

I believe he thinks others ruined him - particularly Floyd Landis. No true remorse for the damage he did to others including teammates, staff and his own family.

The story was compelling overall, but he won’t sell the public despite the PR effort throughout the 4 hours of screen time.


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Old 1 June 2020, 03:19 PM   #79
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Man, I wish I still believed the top .75% of elite athletes were clean.
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Old 2 June 2020, 05:10 AM   #80
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This doesn't have anything to do with anything but I thought it was funny.
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Old 2 June 2020, 05:28 AM   #81
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Near the end, he included himself in a list of “cycling victims” of the doping drama.

Until he deals with that deficit of self-awareness, he is lost to the ash heap of cheaters who are unrepentant.

I believe he thinks others ruined him - particularly Floyd Landis. No true remorse for the damage he did to others including teammates, staff and his own family.

The story was compelling overall, but he won’t sell the public despite the PR effort throughout the 4 hours of screen time.


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Well said, Paul.
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Old 2 June 2020, 02:36 PM   #82
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Seen enough of this guy already. He might wish to rewrite history but I'm not buying it. I really don't care if he cries real crocodile tears, the dude has made his bed and he can rot in it.
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Old 3 June 2020, 06:10 AM   #83
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Near the end, he included himself in a list of “cycling victims” of the doping drama.

Until he deals with that deficit of self-awareness, he is lost to the ash heap of cheaters who are unrepentant.

I believe he thinks others ruined him - particularly Floyd Landis. No true remorse for the damage he did to others including teammates, staff and his own family.

The story was compelling overall, but he won’t sell the public despite the PR effort throughout the 4 hours of screen time.


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X2

While I felt some of the documentary was empathetic, especially with his Cancer foundation, mostly the show just reinforced my belief that he’s still a major pr*ck.

No thanks, he’s still toxic.


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Old 3 June 2020, 06:15 AM   #84
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Tour de Pharmacy is better.
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Old 3 June 2020, 06:28 AM   #85
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He was misunderstood.
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Old 3 June 2020, 06:48 AM   #86
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Near the end, he included himself in a list of “cycling victims” of the doping drama.

Until he deals with that deficit of self-awareness, he is lost to the ash heap of cheaters who are unrepentant.

I believe he thinks others ruined him - particularly Floyd Landis. No true remorse for the damage he did to others including teammates, staff and his own family.

The story was compelling overall, but he won’t sell the public despite the PR effort throughout the 4 hours of screen time.


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Haven’t finished it yet but i do get the sense that he’s still not exactly taking the blame for what happened. I’m not sure where the foundation is now but i would imagine his foundation did some real good in the past. If you click on the foundation link something pops up about cheating and how cancer isn’t a choice. It’s interesting.
I believe that he thought he couldn’t win without doping, and i can understand that from an athlete perspective. If everyone else around you is doing it, you need to do it to win. But you can’t do it then complain and cry about it when you get caught. He does give off a strange vibe though. For a guy that has to deal with people constantly calling him a cheater and hating him, it doesn’t seem to have humbled him at all.


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Old 3 June 2020, 08:07 AM   #87
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Haven’t finished it yet but i do get the sense that he’s still not exactly taking the blame for what happened. I’m not sure where the foundation is now but i would imagine his foundation did some real good in the past. If you click on the foundation link something pops up about cheating and how cancer isn’t a choice. It’s interesting.
I believe that he thought he couldn’t win without doping, and i can understand that from an athlete perspective. If everyone else around you is doing it, you need to do it to win. But you can’t do it then complain and cry about it when you get caught. He does give off a strange vibe though. For a guy that has to deal with people constantly calling him a cheater and hating him, it doesn’t seem to have humbled him at all.


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He’s never cried about it. Everyone else was crying about it and fingering him. That’s why my position is this. The guy is and always has been a prick. I make no excuses for him. I’m just sick of people crediting his accusers as if they were some kind of saints that just wanted to clean up the sport. Which one of them came out and confessed BEFORE they were caught? Landis is the biggest dick of them all. Armstrong lies to all of his fans, but Landis lied, then solicited (not to be confused with just accepted) donations from his fans to fund his own defense when he knew he was guilty.
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Old 3 June 2020, 06:05 PM   #88
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Like many, I was devastated when it was certain that Lance was a cheat. I used to stay up watching this guy flying up the mountains. Having watched a number of documentaries about this and TdF in general, I’ve gained so much respect for Greg LeMond, especially the greatest race of them all, the 1986 TdF. I’d highly recommend spending the hour or so watching Slaying The Badger instead of Lance.
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Old 3 June 2020, 07:15 PM   #89
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Who is going to give me back the time I am going to spend on Armstrong?
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Old 3 June 2020, 11:12 PM   #90
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Who is going to give me back the time I am going to spend on Armstrong?


The guy who twisted your arm into spending that time.


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