Incoming DRSD! Did I get burned?

[1665fan]

Just did a quick search on red subs...found 4 with papers, all punched like Rolex does.....not like yours....and one was 3.2 mill serial....that watch is junk

[alwayshere]

sad to see someone get taken but boy did you part with your money like a fool....

no due diligence at all. The dial you gotta get 100000% correct. Any glimmer of fake, any glimmer, you walk.

cases can easily have serials re-engraved and papers faked...

I hope you can convince him to refund you your money.

[interestedwatcher]

I have some Tudors Subs from around the same ilk, in the next day or so I'll take some macro shots of the serials and brevet, and compare. But the scratch on the serial looks a bit manufactured. The stuff they pump out of Vietnam isn't just shitty fakes...

[Zz101]

Originally Posted by alwayshere

sad to see someone get taken but boy did you part with your money like a fool....

no due diligence at all. The dial you gotta get 100000% correct. Any glimmer of fake, any glimmer, you walk.

cases can easily have serials re-engraved and papers faked...

I hope you can convince him to refund you your money.

I sure did get taken. My naivety got the best of me on this one. Hopefully others learn from this.

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by Zz101

I sure did get taken. My naivety got the best of me on this one. Hopefully others learn from this.

If it was a real mark2 DRSD full set it would have been 60k or more....I’m guessing you probably lost about half that....so the old saying goes if it’s too good to be true it probably is......

[Toronto Soup King]

Can't say I haven't lost more in investments here and there over the years, you gamble, sometimes you lose. But if counterfeit this fraud involves quite a cast of characters, what's the personal history of your old seller? If you see his name on police blotters going back to the seventies then you'll have your answer. But if he's just some guy with no criminal connections or history of trips to Vietnam, it'd be a mystery.

[scooba]

Originally Posted by Zz101

At this point I can see that there are some definite issues with this watch but I’d like to share as much details as possible so that others may learn and not end up in my shoes. There’s enough money in genuine parts that worst case scenario I get some money back from those and the remaining losses go to learning.

For this to be an entire scam it would have had to have been very well coordinated...someone with knowledge of the plausible years.

First let’s start with the paperwork, box booklet. The paperwork seems 100% legit. It has watermarks and age to it. The age would be the hardest to replicate. There is however a convenient scratch over the year.






The dial and hands seems to be generally agreed that they are not genuine. After careful looking I see some of the issues others have stated. I’ll leave the exacts out cause we don’t want them to get any better.

Bracelet seems to be genuine 1997 93150.

Movement genuine 1570 movement.

The case is the tricky part however. For the case to not be genuine this is where some trickery would have come in. First the papers would have had to been acquired. Then the serial would have had to have been engraved onto the case back and case. I’ll include some macros below of the engraving but you can see that the bracelet scratches are over the engraving which would show that this isn’t new engraving.




Now the case back year 1.72 also is very plausible on a 3.1 million serial. There is also a service engraving for 98 which is different than the serial, writing. Not to say that would be very difficult but it would be a further action to push the agenda. Patent pending does not make sense here though.

Insert also seems genuine but haven’t heard any comments on that and not 100%.

I am no expert but a Patent Pending back is too late for 3 million serial number , Also every PP Back I have seen the e in pending on the knurled edge has a tiny pin hole in the teeth , Some one will be along to help I’m sure

[scooba]

I have just visited DB Vintage web site and Daniel has suggested Patent Pending cases were in three distinct small known batches and this doesn’t mention any 3m case numbers ,I would say the back is wrong as well

[Handey0465]

So let's ask the real question...

How much did you pay for an unverified vintage DRSD?

I'm curious to know how much money some people are willing to part with, without DYODD....

That's the intriguing question to me...

[Walts]

Could the OP tell us how he purchased the watch. Was this from local classifieds ebay etc. ? Is the seller a scam artist ? He says he purchased it many years ago . Did it pay to put together such an elaborate fake twenty or thirty years ago?
Should the lume plot on the hour marker be longer and have a point ? Is this considered a well done fake . I found it very difficult to see the difference when comparing it to the DRSD site. Other than whats been mentioned is there anything else that makes this bad?

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Zz101

I sure did get taken. My naivety got the best of me on this one. Hopefully others learn from this.

Originally Posted by Zz101

There’s enough money in genuine parts that worst case scenario I get some money back from those

Others? I'm not sure there are any others who would dive blindfolded and head-first into a $50,000+ watch without doing ANY vetting of the seller, the watch itself, or, at least, take the many, many, many hours to learn all they could about these references.

And the idea of there being "enough money in genuine parts" (there isn't) and hanging on to it and finding a replacement dial (good luck with that) and hands, justifying that the movement is real, and maybe the case is real, with a much-later standard 93150 bracelet that is worth a fraction of the cost of the watch, is just absurd.

Get every penny back. Threaten the seller with fraud if it comes to that. But, please, stop this madness in trying to justify keeping it as a learning experience.

[psv]

First of all, sorry that you have fallen victim to a fake/altered/Franken-watch/scam. It sucks. The dial is definitely fugazzi. I would venture to say that the paper as well - you would be amazed for professionals can do.

Secondly, thank you for having the balls to share your story with us. We will all learn from it and it increases everyone's knowledge. Ignore the "how could you?"-comments - no point in dwelling on the past.

I hope the old man gives you all the money back. He may or may not know that he was dealing with a fake product, it doesn't matter, that is on him. Whatever he bought it for "way back when" (if that is really the case) it would have been a lot less than what he made you pay. Get all your money back and say that you'll involve policy and prosecutor asap. Don't let the poor-old-guy situation make you soft, there is a good chance that this guy knows exactly what he is doing.

May we ask how much you ended up paying for this product?

[scooba]

Originally Posted by Zz101

How so?

Michael Morgan is a expert and also very very busy if he says its fake rest assured it will be , Please accept its a lemon and unfortunately it looks like you have been left holding it

[R44]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Others? I'm not sure there are any others who would dive blindfolded and head-first into a $50,000+ watch without doing ANY vetting of the seller, the watch itself, or, at least, take the many, many, many hours to learn all they could about these references.

And the idea of there being "enough money in genuine parts" (there isn't) and hanging on to it and finding a replacement dial (good luck with that) and hands, justifying that the movement is real, and maybe the case is real, with a much-later standard 93150 bracelet that is worth a fraction of the cost of the watch, is just absurd.

Get every penny back. Threaten the seller with fraud if it comes to that. But, please, stop this madness in trying to justify keeping it as a learning experience.

Not sure I believe the OP on this. He isn't trying anything like hard enough to get a return and none of this makes sense. Private seller or not this is fraud unless it was so cheap that you couldn't expect anything else. Of course a fraudulent seller is going to say it was purchased years ago and I haven't touched it etc ..... if you ever had the misfortune to meet a professional con man they are very very good (Especially the ones who operate in high end markets).

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by R44

Not sure I believe the OP on this. He isn't trying anything like hard enough to get a return and none of this makes sense. Private seller or not this is fraud unless it was so cheap that you couldn't expect anything else. Of course a fraudulent seller is going to say it was purchased years ago and I haven't touched it etc ..... if you ever had the misfortune to meet a professional con man they are very very good (Especially the ones who operate in high end markets).

Yea dude doesn’t seem mad about losing 50k, maybe he’s on here fishing for a buyer...

[linesiders]

Return it, get lawyers involved. PAY prominent Vintage Seller to authenticated it (if they'll even bother)

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Others? I'm not sure there are any others who would dive blindfolded and head-first into a $50,000+ watch without doing ANY vetting of the seller, the watch itself, or, at least, take the many, many, many hours to learn all they could about these references.

And the idea of there being "enough money in genuine parts" (there isn't) and hanging on to it and finding a replacement dial (good luck with that) and hands, justifying that the movement is real, and maybe the case is real, with a much-later standard 93150 bracelet that is worth a fraction of the cost of the watch, is just absurd.

Get every penny back. Threaten the seller with fraud if it comes to that. But, please, stop this madness in trying to justify keeping it as a learning experience.

^^^^ This

Originally Posted by scooba

Michael Morgan is a expert and also very very busy if he says its fake rest assured it will be , Please accept its a lemon and unfortunately it looks like you have been left holding it

^^^^ This

[Zz101]

I’ll try to reply to these without quoting everyone. Please if you have useful information to help in this situation I’d definitely appreciate it but telling me what I coulda, shoulda done already doesn’t help me now.

First I did chat with Michael last night through DM. Figured it was better he tell me there than in public.

I am out a good chunk of money but it’s not 50k. Of course getting my money back is ideal situation but in a scam situation that is highly unlikely. I’m just trying to think of ways to recoup some of my losses. I’ll make another reply to try to explain how the scam went down.

[Zz101]

Ok so one could tell by browsing my previous posts I’ve bought a few watches on Craigslist. This one was the same which is why I feel I may be out of luck. Coronavirus has really helped them with the scam too.

This watch was listed on CL and I quickly replied to it. Received a call back shortly after from what appeared (could be faking voice) an elderly gentleman. We spent some time on the phone speaking and we decided a bank was the safest place to meet. He was decently knowledgeable about Rolex and claims to have several others. I’ve dealt many CL transactions both buying and selling and this didn’t seem unusual or to be a problem.

With the whole Coronavirus issue and him being an elderly guy he said he’d have to send his daughter to the bank because he was quarantining. He said he’d speak with her and let me know when she was available to meet up. He spoke again later and he said she’d be available the following afternoon.

The following day I met with the “daughter” at the bank did what I thought was my due diligence (yes I know know I screwed up bad). Checked the paperwork, serials and movement and all seemed correct. Also inspected the dial too but obviously I’m not skilled enough. I paid the money cash and she proceeded to the teller. She possibly counted all the cash there or made some misc. transaction to give the appearance. I received a receipt and we parted ways. Once I got home I started looking at it closer and posted the pics here for opinions.

As previous stated higher in the thread I called him last night and he answered the phone but is absolute denial that the watch is fake. He said to take it to someone in person and have them look at it. Called him back this morning stated that the watchmaker confirmed authenticity issue and that I want to come up for a full refund.

He’s still adamant the watch is genuine and is accusing me of trying to pull a switch. He says he’ll do the refund but he still doesn’t want to go out now due to Coronavirus and that he’ll meet me at a watchmaker once the “social distance” orders are over. Pushed back that it needs to be done today and that selling a fake watch under false pretenses is a crime and it will be reported. Little bit of arguing back and fourth and and the conversation was going nowhere.

After call filed a report with local police but as I already know there is little the are willing to do.

Phone number is likely a burner and names are likely fake.

With what was done with the watch and this selling style there’s either two situations. The old man got scammed long ago and didn’t know or they setup the scam. Likely the latter.

Yes in hind sight there are many things I could have done better but this was very well orchestrated. I also scan and get notifications on CL and this watch or anything similar hasn’t been posted before in this area. For the entire scam to go down it would take multiple knowledgeable people.

Pros for him being scammed long ago are little details such as 1997 bracelet and 1998 service mark on caseback. Also even when I said it was going to a watchmaker he had concern in his voice for them to be careful with the watch.

Pros for him being the scammer...there’s many. Signature on receipt seems fake plus other things listed.

[jimly]

Congratulations.

[1665fan]

Yea they will stop answering the phone shortly I’m sure....that sucks and sorry for the loss

[-dustin]

This is fascinating. From the detail shown by the alleged counterfeit to some of the rather juvenile comments. I think this is my favorite thread so far, in the short time I've been around. Thanks, OP, for sharing your story/ concern and not just tucking tail and running away.

[brandrea]

Really sorry to see this happen. I hope you can recoup your losses on this one.

[BigBlue1]

Originally Posted by Zz101

Ok so one could tell by browsing my previous posts I’ve bought a few watches on Craigslist. This one was the same which is why I feel I may be out of luck. Coronavirus has really helped them with the scam too.

This watch was listed on CL and I quickly replied to it. Received a call back shortly after from what appeared (could be faking voice) an elderly gentleman. We spent some time on the phone speaking and we decided a bank was the safest place to meet. He was decently knowledgeable about Rolex and claims to have several others. I’ve dealt many CL transactions both buying and selling and this didn’t seem unusual or to be a problem.

With the whole Coronavirus issue and him being an elderly guy he said he’d have to send his daughter to the bank because he was quarantining. He said he’d speak with her and let me know when she was available to meet up. He spoke again later and he said she’d be available the following afternoon.

The following day I met with the “daughter” at the bank did what I thought was my due diligence (yes I know know I screwed up bad). Checked the paperwork, serials and movement and all seemed correct. Also inspected the dial too but obviously I’m not skilled enough. I paid the money cash and she proceeded to the teller. She possibly counted all the cash there or made some misc. transaction to give the appearance. I received a receipt and we parted ways. Once I got home I started looking at it closer and posted the pics here for opinions.

As previous stated higher in the thread I called him last night and he answered the phone but is absolute denial that the watch is fake. He said to take it to someone in person and have them look at it. Called him back this morning stated that the watchmaker confirmed authenticity issue and that I want to come up for a full refund.

He’s still adamant the watch is genuine and is accusing me of trying to pull a switch. He says he’ll do the refund but he still doesn’t want to go out now due to Coronavirus and that he’ll meet me at a watchmaker once the “social distance” orders are over. Pushed back that it needs to be done today and that selling a fake watch under false pretenses is a crime and it will be reported. Little bit of arguing back and fourth and and the conversation was going nowhere.

After call filed a report with local police but as I already know there is little the are willing to do.

Phone number is likely a burner and names are likely fake.

With what was done with the watch and this selling style there’s either two situations. The old man got scammed long ago and didn’t know or they setup the scam. Likely the latter.

Yes in hind sight there are many things I could have done better but this was very well orchestrated. I also scan and get notifications on CL and this watch or anything similar hasn’t been posted before in this area. For the entire scam to go down it would take multiple knowledgeable people.

Pros for him being scammed long ago are little details such as 1997 bracelet and 1998 service mark on caseback. Also even when I said it was going to a watchmaker he had concern in his voice for them to be careful with the watch.

Pros for him being the scammer...there’s many. Signature on receipt seems fake plus other things listed.

I commend you for telling it how it is and as said not running away from the keyboard. Very valuable lessons to be learned for sure. Lots of people will sure learn from this thread. Also as with any Rolex piece Vintage, especially Double Red, which is faked very often, please, please, please do your homework. Even when you think you're sure, look again. I definitely feel your pain. I was stiffed by a high end dealer and was taken for a ride, but no where near what you must of shelled out, it sucks though. Karma will prevail in the end.

[swish77]

Sorry to hear this sad tale.

OP, you said you didn't get a second opinion before buying and took the "riskier route?" Why is that? What was the rush? Don't mean to rub salt in the wound, but there are so many experts available who could have immediately seen the red flags here.

[Handey0465]

1. Craigslist
2. “I can’t leave the house, meet my daughter”

Scam.....

[Zz101]

Originally Posted by swish77

Sorry to hear this sad tale.

OP, you said you didn't get a second opinion before buying and took the "riskier route?" Why is that? What was the rush? Don't mean to rub salt in the wound, but there are so many experts available who could have immediately seen the red flags here.

I don’t want to make excuses for it so it basically comes down to I made a poor decision, got scammed and learned a valuable and expensive lesson.

The rational for my decision is I’ve made many purchases on CL. See the thread in my history of CL find. All of my CL purchases have been well under market value. One thing about buying on CL is the good deals go quick, this is why I acted quick.

The price I paid for this was well under market value as well and my thought at the time was even if there was a swapped/refinished (worthless) dial I’d still be able to break even. The other issues were not calculated. When I bought the watch I told one of my buddies the watch is worth somewhere between $10-$100k. I gambled and lost but went into it with eyes open however I did miscalculate.

Life is a gamble. Everyday I take calculated risk whether it stocks, my business. If I never took risk I wouldn’t have ever been in a situation of purchasing high end watches to begin with.

It’s not really rubbing salt on the wound. This situation sucks, it hurts but it’s not the end of the world(maybe it is but not because of this deal haha). My kids will still be fed my mortgage will get paid, life goes on.

The other thing to note is that if I add up all my CL watch purchases including this one and compare cost to market value I’d be net positive.

[dhknola]

[QUOTE=Zz101;10609504]I don’t want to make excuses for it so it basically comes down to I made a poor decision, got scammed and learned a valuable and expensive lesson.

I have gotten some good to great CL scores over the years, so I am sure this jumped out as a possible 'grand slam' and turned in to a grand POS.

I really respect your attitude in this, it seems you have gambled and won enough that this is a humbling reminder of fallibility to you and congrats for taking it in stride.

I do you wish you the best getting something back out of the whole mess.

[zapokee]

Sad to hear. Hope it works out.

This is why it's good to pay a little extra to buy from trusted dealers whose livelihoods depend on a solid worldwide reputation within the watch community. Vintage Rolex isn't the place to try to score bargains.

[Zz101]

Originally Posted by R44

Not sure I believe the OP on this. He isn't trying anything like hard enough to get a return and none of this makes sense. Private seller or not this is fraud unless it was so cheap that you couldn't expect anything else. Of course a fraudulent seller is going to say it was purchased years ago and I haven't touched it etc ..... if you ever had the misfortune to meet a professional con man they are very very good (Especially the ones who operate in high end markets).

I have no reason to lie about any of this. Maybe I handled the transaction so poorly it appears that no one could but that dumb but I was.

When it comes to Rolex I’ve actually dodged many more scams than purchases I’ve made and had never been taken to this point. This was a good setup they had going much better than any other Rolex scam I’ve come across but there were still enough red flags that I should have done better.

[Zz101]

[QUOTE=dhknola;10609547]

Originally Posted by Zz101

....so I am sure this jumped out as a possible 'grand slam' and turned in to a grand POS.

.....a humbling reminder of fallibility to you and congrats for taking it in stride.

I do you wish you the best getting something back out of the whole mess.

Hit the nail on the head.