Conflicting serial numbers on a NOS datejust, 36mm from 1993

[Rolex320]

I purchased a 36 mm and 26 mm, new old stock, datejust watches, 18k/steel. Years are 1993 and 1991. I received all paperwork and boxes along with both watches, and purchased from a reputable seller. I’m someone who does a lot of research on things so I took them both to an authorized Rolex dealer and showed them to an on-site Watchmaker in their service center. An initial inspection, he said everything seems to check out and looks good and then he brought them in back to do some further research. He checked the serial numbers against his system and the 36 mm was initially sold with a steel Roman dial, and the 26 mm was originally sold with with the diamond dial. The 36 mm that I purchased instead had the diamond dial in Champaign and the 26 mm had just the regular champagne dial with hash marks. He said it wasn’t odd back in those years for dealers to switch out the dial for customers.
At this point, I left the store, satisfied enough, that I had an authentic set of watches.
I still wanted to make sure that the guts of the watch was authentic, do I went back and he removed the back cover, and again on first inspection everything looked fine, but when he checked the casing cover serial number, and it did not match to what was listed in the system for this particular watch….this was on the 36mm. So basically, it looks like the movement inside of the watch is from a different watch and he stated that it’s possible that when they were changing out the dial, they just moved everything over from one watch to another. Of course he can’t guarantee this, and he did not dismantle the watch to see all the other parts inside, but like he said, from what he saw, visually everything seem to be OK.
Now my question is, would you return these watches, knowing that the internal serial number is different from the serial number that it originally came with? He stated that if I ever wanted to do service on the swatch, they wouldn’t be able to do it on site and would have to send it out to Rolex because of the conflicting serial numbers. These are beautiful watches, and they are in new condition and I’m torn between keeping them, or returning them…which the Jeweler is offering me a return if I’m not satisfied. The Jeweler said he would even go so far as to refund me $500 of the cost. Basically, I just need some advice as to whether I’ll be able to ever turn this around and sell it due to the discrepancy. I also am wondering if this decreases the value of these watches. Or should I just wear them and enjoy them? Give me all your pros and cons to keeping or returning. And will Rolex service them with the conflicting serial numbers?? The Watchmaker couldn’t give me a definitive answer on that because he told me he has not come across anything like this.

[bondtoys]

In the 1990s it was common practice to do dial swaps at ADs, which meant that the movement including the dial was swapped.
Much faster, easier and no damage to dial and hands.

Noone could forsee that 3 decades later, those movement numbers would be researched on something called the internet and Rolex never made problems in terms of warranty.

I don‘t understand why your AD has a problem servicing such a watch while Rolex SC would accept to do it.

[GGGMT]

Oh 100% I’d return these. 100%. . They’ve been big time jacked around with and anyone telling you “it was common” for all of that to be switched around is wrong. My suggestion: Get your money back and get some watches with some integrity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rootbeer7]

I wasn’t aware that Rolex made public the movement serial numbers. Dials were swapped out from time to time as were bracelets. Do you mean the serial numbers between the lugs when your watchmaker removed the bracelets?

[oysterfisher]

Originally Posted by Rolex320

I purchased a 36 mm and 26 mm, new old stock, datejust watches, 18k/steel. Years are 1993 and 1991. I received all paperwork and boxes along with both watches, and purchased from a reputable seller. I’m someone who does a lot of research on things so I took them both to an authorized Rolex dealer and showed them to an on-site Watchmaker in their service center. An initial inspection, he said everything seems to check out and looks good and then he brought them in back to do some further research. He checked the serial numbers against his system and the 36 mm was initially sold with a steel Roman dial, and the 26 mm was originally sold with with the diamond dial. The 36 mm that I purchased instead had the diamond dial in Champaign and the 26 mm had just the regular champagne dial with hash marks. He said it wasn’t odd back in those years for dealers to switch out the dial for customers.
At this point, I left the store, satisfied enough, that I had an authentic set of watches.
I still wanted to make sure that the guts of the watch was authentic, do I went back and he removed the back cover, and again on first inspection everything looked fine, but when he checked the casing cover serial number, and it did not match to what was listed in the system for this particular watch….this was on the 36mm. So basically, it looks like the movement inside of the watch is from a different watch and he stated that it’s possible that when they were changing out the dial, they just moved everything over from one watch to another. Of course he can’t guarantee this, and he did not dismantle the watch to see all the other parts inside, but like he said, from what he saw, visually everything seem to be OK.
Now my question is, would you return these watches, knowing that the internal serial number is different from the serial number that it originally came with? He stated that if I ever wanted to do service on the swatch, they wouldn’t be able to do it on site and would have to send it out to Rolex because of the conflicting serial numbers. These are beautiful watches, and they are in new condition and I’m torn between keeping them, or returning them…which the Jeweler is offering me a return if I’m not satisfied. The Jeweler said he would even go so far as to refund me $500 of the cost. Basically, I just need some advice as to whether I’ll be able to ever turn this around and sell it due to the discrepancy. I also am wondering if this decreases the value of these watches. Or should I just wear them and enjoy them? Give me all your pros and cons to keeping or returning. And will Rolex service them with the conflicting serial numbers?? The Watchmaker couldn’t give me a definitive answer on that because he told me he has not come across anything like this.

I have never heard that a AD can check the "original delivered from factory" dial or movement serial -- case serial of a watch that old.
As far as I know the whole "factory specs"-stuff started in the early 2000s where Rolex began to write on the paperwork in the last line the dial combination (in the line under "Serial No.".
Please don't forget to consider that many of the "highly trained AD watchmakers" have no experience whatsoever, especially in the vintage and neo-vintage sector. Most people are no longer familiar with the industry since the introduction of the Ceramic Rolex models. I've had some sadly stupid experiences myself and I'm sure some other forum members will agree. Until the 2010s, it was completely normal to install the dial that the customer wanted. ADs still have large stocks of old parts (including dials, hands, straps).
It is precisely the background to the purchase you made from the “competition” that often leads to making such a statement.

In Europe no AD can give you such a statement without sending the object to the manufacturer's HQ. This takes months and in NO case that I know of does it contain such precise information about the "first delivery condition".

I conclude that the Datejust 36 you own is a sapphire crystal watch with reference 16233? The caseback you mentioned then has the inside engraving 2080 or 16200. This is the case with EVERY 16233. The "highly trained specialist" probably assumed it was a cover from a 16200 Datejust (stainless steel with stainless steel bezel ring).

Regarding the information about the movement, a caliber 3135 should be installed in the 16233 (36mm) and a caliber 2135 should be installed in the ladies Datejust (probably a 69173).

An overhaul of both movements is easy for any “half-way trained” watchmaker. - A service from the manufacturer is completely pointless. Especially since unnecessary things (e.g. bezel rings, solid gold crowns (instead of the previous version with gold plating) are often charged for in bicolor models.


I advise you to stay calm and not take everything that an AD tells you at face value.

[illiguy]

Dial swaps on DJs and DDs were common practice in the early 90s. I wouldn’t worry, to be honest. They’re authentic watches.

If it troubles you, and only you will know, return them if possible to get an all original pair.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

I wasn’t aware that Rolex made public the movement serial numbers. Dials were swapped out from time to time as were bracelets. Do you mean the serial numbers between the lugs when your watchmaker removed the bracelets?

Exactly only Rolex keeps documents related to the movement serial.

[Pepperjack]

Every repair that is done in-house, we are supposed to put the serial number into a system. That will often bring up movement serial, model number, bracelet number, warranty end date, and the dial. Older watches won't have this info, but most estimates that I do make use of it. After we complete work, we can change the dial and warranty info. Recently we have been allowed to change the movement serial. It is uncommon, but the movement serial is occasionally incorrect. I don't have a definitive answer as to "why," but it could be the movement was switched, the main plate was replaced, or the info was just put in improperly. The latter of those does happen every so often. It's far from a perfect system, but it can provide good insight into the watch.

With the serial numbers and dial not correlating on your watch, I'm confident that an RSC would service it and just change the info in the system, since that's what I, as an AD watchmaker, am allowed to do. Rolex's communication leaves a lot to be desired, so it's possible the watchmaker you visited has received different information than I have, or it could be that they saw more that needs to be addressed. Either way, what you are describing doesn't seem too concerning to me.

[KY..]

As long as the two watches are 100% authentic and the parts are period correct to the case SN I would not worry.
If they were sports models then added scrutiny would apply more IMO.

[Rolex320]

Thank you for the explanation. The watchmaker, in my case, also made a guess that when they changed out the dial, they may have just swapped that and the movement from another watch. He has not come across this before, but that was his only explanation on why the serial on the component case didn’t match what was in the system. So as far as you’re concerned, I should have no problems getting it serviced?

[Pepperjack]

Originally Posted by Rolex320

Thank you for the explanation. The watchmaker, in my case, also made a guess that when they changed out the dial, they may have just swapped that and the movement from another watch. He has not come across this before, but that was his only explanation on why the serial on the component case didn’t match what was in the system. So as far as you’re concerned, I should have no problems getting it serviced?

I don't think you will have a problem getting it serviced by an RSC. Before this post I would have added "or an AD," but I guess that isn't true across the board yet.

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by oysterfisher

I have never heard that a AD can check the "original delivered from factory" dial or movement serial -- case serial of a watch that old.
As far as I know the whole "factory specs"-stuff started in the early 2000s where Rolex began to write on the paperwork in the last line the dial combination (in the line under "Serial No.".
Please don't forget to consider that many of the "highly trained AD watchmakers" have no experience whatsoever, especially in the vintage and neo-vintage sector. Most people are no longer familiar with the industry since the introduction of the Ceramic Rolex models. I've had some sadly stupid experiences myself and I'm sure some other forum members will agree. Until the 2010s, it was completely normal to install the dial that the customer wanted. ADs still have large stocks of old parts (including dials, hands, straps).
It is precisely the background to the purchase you made from the “competition” that often leads to making such a statement.

In Europe no AD can give you such a statement without sending the object to the manufacturer's HQ. This takes months and in NO case that I know of does it contain such precise information about the "first delivery condition".

I conclude that the Datejust 36 you own is a sapphire crystal watch with reference 16233? The caseback you mentioned then has the inside engraving 2080 or 16200. This is the case with EVERY 16233. The "highly trained specialist" probably assumed it was a cover from a 16200 Datejust (stainless steel with stainless steel bezel ring).

Regarding the information about the movement, a caliber 3135 should be installed in the 16233 (36mm) and a caliber 2135 should be installed in the ladies Datejust (probably a 69173).

An overhaul of both movements is easy for any “half-way trained” watchmaker. - A service from the manufacturer is completely pointless. Especially since unnecessary things (e.g. bezel rings, solid gold crowns (instead of the previous version with gold plating) are often charged for in bicolor models.


I advise you to stay calm and not take everything that an AD tells you at face value.

It’s an18k/steel, with 18k fluted bezel. He absolutely gave me specs on what dial it was originally sold as, which would have been a steel Roman. Instead when I purchased, it was a champagne diamond dial. He also gave me the exact serial number of the component case that it should have had, and also what it currently has in it.

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

I wasn’t aware that Rolex made public the movement serial numbers. Dials were swapped out from time to time as were bracelets. Do you mean the serial numbers between the lugs when your watchmaker removed the bracelets?

The component cover serial number. Once the watchmaker takes off the case back, the cover within the operating system of the watch. And yes, this watchmaker went so far as to give me the serial number of this cover that should have been in the watch, that it was originally sold as. The serial number that he observed, was different.

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by padi56

Exactly only Rolex keeps documents related to the movement serial.

This watchmaker gave me this information because he knew I needed some kind of authentication in case I needed to return it.

[Rolex320]

[QUOTE=Rolex320;13107859]This watchmaker gave me this information because he knew I needed some kind of authentication in case I needed to return it.[/

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

In the 1990s it was common practice to do dial swaps at ADs, which meant that the movement including the dial was swapped.
Much faster, easier and no damage to dial and hands.

Noone could forsee that 3 decades later, those movement numbers would be researched on something called the internet and Rolex never made problems in terms of warranty.

I don‘t understand why your AD has a problem servicing such a watch while Rolex SC would accept to do it.

He told me since the serial number is different than what’s in the system, he would have to send it out. Maybe he was hesitant working on it because of my concern of authenticity. The reason I came in was to make sure the watches checked out.

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

In the 1990s it was common practice to do dial swaps at ADs, which meant that the movement including the dial was swapped.
Much faster, easier and no damage to dial and hands.

Noone could forsee that 3 decades later, those movement numbers would be researched on something called the internet and Rolex never made problems in terms of warranty.

I don‘t understand why your AD has a problem servicing such a watch while Rolex SC would accept to do it.

He did say what you just stated. That it’s possible they swapped out the dial and movement, because it was easier as a whole. In his opinion, everything looks good. It was just differing serial numbers and dials.

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by KY..

As long as the two watches are 100% authentic and the parts are period correct to the case SN I would not worry.
If they were sports models then added scrutiny would apply more IMO.

Ok. I may just keep them then, because they are beautiful pieces. Thanks

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Rolex320

The component cover serial number. Once the watchmaker takes off the case back, the cover within the operating system of the watch.

A watch does not have an operating system, and if you are referring to the movement, it's not clear what the "cover" of the movement refers to. It's quite difficult to understand your writing.

So just to be crystal clear. There is a number between the lugs on the outside of the case, that is the conventional serial number, or case number. There is another number on a plate in the movement. Are you saying that your AD claims that those two numbers don't belong to the same watch? Or are you referring to a different identifier?

It's surprising to me that Rolex would service a watch with mismatched numbers, but an AD could not service it. Are you sure that you understood that correctly? If that's really true, I might be tempted to return the watches.

[1William]

I would send them back and get a refund and start over. Too many issues and unknowns for me to keep them. My concern would be future value, service and how do you even explain this to a potential buyer in the future?

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by Dan S

A watch does not have an operating system, and if you are referring to the movement, it's not clear what the "cover" of the movement refers to. It's quite difficult to understand your writing.

So just to be crystal clear. There is a number between the lugs on the outside of the case, that is the conventional serial number, or case number. There is another number on a plate in the movement. Are you saying that your AD claims that those two numbers don't belong to the same watch? Or are you referring to a different identifier?

It's surprising to me that Rolex would service a watch with mismatched numbers, but an AD could not service it. Are you sure that you understood that correctly? If that's really true, I might be tempted to return the watches.

The serial number on the plate of the movement is different than what the original watch had.

[oysterfisher]

Also I am pretty sure that the referred "roman numeral steel (silver) dial" not even existed in the frame of 1991 to 1993.
The silver dials came up mid 90s

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by oysterfisher

Also I am pretty sure that the referred "roman numeral steel (silver) dial" not even existed in the frame of 1991 to 1993.
The silver dials came up mid 90s

That’s interesting. So what is your verdict in regards to the authenticity of this watch then? The Watchmaker said everything checked out in regards to genuine Rolex parts, but it just seems like a mixture of parts. Would you hold onto them or would you return them?

[oysterfisher]

As mentioned above, I would not believe what a "highly trained AD watchmaker" tells me. Do your own research by yourself here in forum or books.

If you are referring to this kind of dial, i would not believe what he says. As mentioned in my previous post I havent heard about a archive or software / intranet / system where
1. a AD has access
2. a watch that age is listed with original delivery specs

just my 2 cents.

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by oysterfisher

As mentioned above, I would not believe what a "highly trained AD watchmaker" tells me. Do your own research by yourself here in forum or books.

If you are referring to this kind of dial, i would not believe what he says. As mentioned in my previous post I havent heard about a archive or software / intranet / system where
1. a AD has access
2. a watch that age is listed with original delivery specs

just my 2 cents.

I can’t imagine the Watchmaker would give me false information, let alone make up what he saw in his database. If there was no record, I’m sure he would tell me there was nothing in the system.

[KY..]

Originally Posted by Rolex320

I can’t imagine the Watchmaker would give me false information, let alone make up what he saw in his database. If there was no record, I’m sure he would tell me there was nothing in the system.

Why don’t you just take clear photos of the watches and post them here to clear up all the questions?

[Rolex320]

Originally Posted by KY..

Why don’t you just take clear photos of the watches and post them here to clear up all the questions?

I tried to, but I have no idea how to post photos on this forum. Any advice on how to do that?

[Dan S]

If only there were some way to search for answers to common questions...

[KY..]

Originally Posted by Rolex320

I tried to, but I have no idea how to post photos on this forum. Any advice on how to do that?

Review the link:
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=309522
Also set up a photo hosting location with any of the many sites like imgur or photobucket or tapatalk or whoever you prefer.
And use the directions in the link above to post direct links to your clear photos.

[Pepperjack]

Originally Posted by oysterfisher

As mentioned in my previous post I havent heard about a archive or software / intranet / system where
1. a AD has access
2. a watch that age is listed with original delivery specs

I am a watchmaker at an AD. We have access to a Rolex site that will give us the movement serial number and last-known configuration of that watch. This information is available for, in my experience, all modern models. If something is different or it is a classic model, we are supposed to update that watch in the system. We are supposed to input every Rolex repair we do.