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Old 30 May 2019, 03:03 AM   #31
ocwatching
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this is about sums it up...good post...
never understood why Panerai don't have a basic lineup with all the DNA...then add the rest bells and whistles...
I have only kept the 190 from my panerai days...

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Originally Posted by Ravager135 View Post
I'll qualify my remarks by saying I own three Panerai. They are all regular production, base models (more or less). Panerai screwed up badly many years ago and from what I have seen recently, they haven't learned their lesson. They have continually doubled down on the Submersible line with new materials, dials, and now experiences that have completely diluted the brand. Browse through the website. There is a smattering of base models but most lack the DNA of what people really want in a Panerai: gold hands, sandwich dials, reliable hand wound movements, etc. Then you have a bunch of overpriced complications that do not sell well. At the price point of some of the chronographs and other flyback models, you can afford brand icons from AP, Rolex, JLC. Instead of Panerai promoting what people like about their brand (large, basic models in steel), they over-innovate. There is nothing wrong with Carbotech, BMG, or other new complications, but they need to fortify their regular production Luminor and Radiomir models.

There should be a basic line up of Luminors and Radiomirs that have minimal complications, 44-47mm diameters, quality dials/hands/screw on case backs, etc. I think there's something wrong where we can't get a time only (or with seconds hand) Radiomir 1940 in 47mm with a black dial, hand wound movement, sandwich dial, in steel. There was a special release for Russian Paneristi and I think there's one with a Minerva movement from years ago. Everything now has "8 Days" on the dial, is automatic, or has a complication people don't want. Look at the models people adore: 372, 422, even the older 000, 005, 111, and 112. That should be the refined focus of the brand.
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Old 30 May 2019, 04:38 AM   #32
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this is about sums it up...good post...
never understood why Panerai don't have a basic lineup with all the DNA...then add the rest bells and whistles...
I have only kept the 190 from my panerai days...
It just makes no sense... They will offer something perfect like the 372. It's a top seller, then there's nothing like this in the rest of catalog for the remainder of the cases. I can completely understand that they don't want to make the same thing in every size and case, but I think they could easily come up with a work around. Taking the Luminor 1950 cases as an example, we have the 372. Perfect. Now offer a more modern Luminor 1950 at 44mm but make it hand wound, get rid of the date, use the modern (non-gold hands), get rid of the faux patina. Now you have a Luminor 1950 that looks closely like the original and a more modest sized modern version that's still different enough to command its own audience. Keep the 322 as it is a fan favorite. We don't really need the exact same thing with a 10 day power reserve (even though it is a great watch for all the reasons we like the 322). We don't need one with the GMT but no power reserve. It's just redundant.

A few years back they offered the PAM 448 and 449. Both great historical references. But then they offered the same thing with an OP logo on the California dial and the pig on the SLC dial as regular production models. Why? There was no need. The 448 and 449 should have just been regular production. Offer what is now the 720 as a regular production model (all at 47mm) and then offer the modern sandwich "Black Seal" models with sandwich dials at 45mm (like they used to). That should be the bulk of the Radiomir line. Throw in a few others with some complications at the higher end price point. End of story.

The regular Luminor line... They should all be 44mm. Painted dials with logos like the 000, 005. Sandwich dials with 3 day movements like the 111, 112. Make a couple white dial variations. Get rid of all the different OP logo variations. Get rid of faux patina. This is a "modern" line. Offer 1, maybe 2 titanium variations for fun. Offer one automatic reference with a date. Offer a DLC version. End of work.

I just fixed three case lines.
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Old 30 May 2019, 07:52 AM   #33
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I don't see how people get past the Brooklyn Bridge LE fiasco. That was a huge slap in the face to ALL of their customers. The way they handled it after being exposed was even worse. Considering the parent company (Richemont), I guess it's no surprise that they have no respect for their customers. There's only one PAM reference I want now and that's the 5218-301/A Mare Nostrum but I'll wait until prices drop even more. I think the only way Panerai survives long term to get out from under Richemont's control. Imagine if Rolex bought them, trashed the entire line of junk they currently make and went back to basics with Rolex manual wind movements....
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Old 30 May 2019, 09:08 AM   #34
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Why compare a regular Royal Oak? Itís not a dive watch, doesnít look like a dive watch, and has no business being referenced.

The AP ROO Diver actually -is- a true diver at 300m resistance and has nihs 92-11 and ISO 6425 certifications.


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I didn't say it was a diver, none of the ones mentioned are, so it's fair game to reference. Why even bring up the offshore? A 30k+ timepiece has no comparison to entry level panerai, which is where the driven casebacks are found.

I brought it up because it's just another watch that people hold in high esteem, similar to the explorer and a ton of other quality watches in the price point of the entry level panerai's. It goes to show that people think the new caseback makes it a lesser watch, and I was pointing out that it doesn't make any sacrifice where it actually matters (water resistance). Other watches of higher price points and "superior" casebacks can often have the same WR, which is impressive on panerai's part.
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Old 30 May 2019, 10:03 AM   #35
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While Panerai revamp their submersible line in 42 and 47mm,they sort of bastardized their 44mm submersible line,only one model with Valjoux movement

Personally I have 10+ pams in my collection,but Iím not interested in anything with pam 500+ number...
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Old 2 June 2019, 12:58 PM   #36
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I don't see how people get past the Brooklyn Bridge LE fiasco. That was a huge slap in the face to ALL of their customers. The way they handled it after being exposed was even worse. Considering the parent company (Richemont), I guess it's no surprise that they have no respect for their customers. There's only one PAM reference I want now and that's the 5218-301/A Mare Nostrum but I'll wait until prices drop even more. I think the only way Panerai survives long term to get out from under Richemont's control. Imagine if Rolex bought them, trashed the entire line of junk they currently make and went back to basics with Rolex manual wind movements....
Buy a 716 and call it a day.
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Old 3 June 2019, 02:12 PM   #37
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Buy a 716 and call it a day.
Nah, I don't want anything built under Richemont's control.
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Old 7 June 2019, 02:42 AM   #38
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I used to own 7 or 8 PAMs years ago. I only have the 662 now. I like wearing it a lot even though my wrist is fairly small. I thought about trading it in for something else but it is such a nice watch. Trade value is only about 5k and nothing in that range is as nice as the 662. So I am keeping it in my collection.
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Old 7 June 2019, 02:23 PM   #39
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Interesting discussion. I love my 111 but Iím also digging the new 683 submersible. I donít mind a company evolving.
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Old 8 June 2019, 11:48 PM   #40
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I used to own 7 or 8 PAMs years ago. I only have the 662 now. I like wearing it a lot even though my wrist is fairly small. I thought about trading it in for something else but it is such a nice watch. Trade value is only about 5k and nothing in that range is as nice as the 662. So I am keeping it in my collection.
I'm a big fan of the 662 as well. Lately, it has been my go to watch.
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Old 9 June 2019, 12:04 AM   #41
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I love the fact you can get a nice used pam for a nice discount.


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Old 9 June 2019, 12:32 AM   #42
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The problem with the SnapBack case and springbars is that it is blatant cost cutting without a reduction in consumer cost. Itís something you would expect to see happen to toasters or other cheap stuff
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Old 9 June 2019, 02:08 PM   #43
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They need endorsements. Shouldve pinned Dwayne ďThe RockĒ Johnson years ago to carry on tradition of roided up muscle men. If he was rocking a PAM in his movies or Ballers...
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Old 21 June 2019, 05:57 AM   #44
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Don't call it a comeback 😂

For my money, I am a vintage rolex guy....but....I own and have owned panerai also. Lately in the uk panerai are strong. They are still cool and everyone wears rolex or another hip watch but panerai are always there, in the background. People buy panerai because they like them and want them and don't worry about resale. If you wanna be different buy panerai. If you are a resale kid it's rolex but keep an eye out, people are not willing to wait on lists forever.....panerai is mopping them up. I have a 26 that I can't ever sell and I've sold a lot of other brands. PANERAI people always seem a bit more "off the wall" I like that
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Old 21 June 2019, 11:33 AM   #45
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I used to own 7 or 8 PAMs years ago. I only have the 662 now. I like wearing it a lot even though my wrist is fairly small. I thought about trading it in for something else but it is such a nice watch. Trade value is only about 5k and nothing in that range is as nice as the 662. So I am keeping it in my collection.
Keep your 662, itís a pure collectors Pam and will go up in value.
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Old 21 June 2019, 06:02 PM   #46
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It has a strong dna and has produced some fantastic references and imo will always have a die hard fan base, it just needs to listen to these ppl more and pare things down a little.



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Old 21 June 2019, 09:08 PM   #47
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Panerai is a brand that is actually doing something progressive in watch making I am excited with.
I am very interested in the direction Panerai is going with a industry leading materials and construction like the LAB-iD. I have enough traditionalist brands. The new Panerai exclusive material like BMG-tech and Carbotech is exciting to me and a aggressive/ballsy move in watch making. I like this new aggressive move on the traditional and unique Panerai design. The new thinner P9010 movement has a twin fixed balance bridge now with 31 jewels and a dual barrel mainspring 72 hour power reserve. If you are a movement snob, what’s not to like??? Rolex is still using their old 3135 48hr power reserve movement in the Sub. Ugh.
I love Rolex and the new 3285 movement is fitting to today’s standards but milking the old 3135 movement another year is beyond conservative for even Rolex.

The Panerai Duo snap back case is rubbish but the new high end stuff is where my money will go. Panerai has always had a lot of haters because of their success and devoted followers. It’s become fashionable to pile on Panerai for making a few mistakes in typical fan boy style.
Panerai isn’t going anywhere as the core enthusiast are strong and Panerai is investing and developing the future cutting edge watch making materials.
The quick flippers have moved on to pick at Rolex bones and thats just great for us Paneristis.

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Old 21 June 2019, 10:29 PM   #48
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Panerai has the most un-understandable prices of any brand. I love the new Carbotechs but 15-20k!?!? I’m not doing that. Does Panerai know how far away they set themselves at those prices? I don’t get them. I will most definitely will buy another PAM, heck I’d buy 2. But they are out of touch right now.
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Old 21 June 2019, 11:20 PM   #49
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Panerai has the most un-understandable prices of any brand. I love the new Carbotechs but 15-20k!?!? Iím not doing that. Does Panerai know how far away they set themselves at those prices? I donít get them. I will most definitely will buy another PAM, heck Iíd buy 2. But they are out of touch right now.
This is what luxury brands do. AP did a similar outrageous price hike years ago even for AP standards. New exotic materials are the new hidden X factor on what the market will bare in such a luxury watch. The exotic "big black watch" is on fire the last year and only getting more popular. Styles and trends have come together on the look creating a perfect storm. The Carbotech watches are one of the few Panerai models that are in high demand and holding excellent resale on the secondary market. I have been following them since their introduction. Panerai is also keeping production down with these models. Panerai is keeping the Carbotech a proper 300m WR unlike other high end exotic material dive watches. The AP rooc CE is on fire now at well above $30k so the market doesnt need any precious metal in the watch for big money.

My other Pam models that I purchased years ago from our trusted sellers are worth about exactly what I paid then. Like AP, Panerai are watches you must buy after they take that first depreciated hit if you can. I am looking at 2 "like new" recent released AP rooc models that have taken a significant depreciation in only 2 years. I may jump on one of them just because it may be the optimal time. Thank god I own all the new Rolex models I want because I wouldnt touch any Rolex at current market price. Its a buyers market on other fantastic luxury watch brands.

Check out the Panerai Lab-ID. 50 years no maintenance concept. I will pay big money for this kind of engineering in a watch.
https://youtu.be/c9CviI-qUdc

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Old 22 June 2019, 12:19 AM   #50
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Something weird has happened this year - I've become much more loyal to my Panerai. Not sure when or how it happened, but many Rolex have come and gone from my world while I now have a core group of Panerai that I wear all the time and that I have zero desire to sell.
Here's the latest:
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Old 22 June 2019, 12:41 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mystro View Post
Panerai is a brand that is actually doing something progressive in watch making I am excited with.
I am very interested in the direction Panerai is going with a industry leading materials and construction like the LAB-iD. I have enough traditionalist brands. The new Panerai exclusive material like BMG-tech and Carbotech is exciting to me and a aggressive/ballsy move in watch making. I like this new aggressive move on the traditional and unique Panerai design. The new thinner P9010 movement has a twin fixed balance bridge now with 31 jewels and a dual barrel mainspring 72 hour power reserve. If you are a movement snob, whatís not to like??? Rolex is still using their old 3135 48hr power reserve movement in the Sub. Ugh.
I love Rolex and the new 3285 movement is fitting to todayís standards but milking the old 3135 movement another year is beyond conservative for even Rolex.

The Panerai Duo snap back case is rubbish but the new high end stuff is where my money will go. Panerai has always had a lot of haters because of their success and devoted followers. Itís become fashionable to pile on Panerai for making a few mistakes in typical fan boy style.
Panerai isnít going anywhere as the core enthusiast are strong and Panerai is investing and developing the future cutting edge watch making materials.
The quick flippers have moved on to pick at Rolex bones and thats just great for us Paneristis.

Great perspective and man that 661 looks good on black rubber!
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Old 22 June 2019, 04:05 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mystro View Post
Panerai is a brand that is actually doing something progressive in watch making I am excited with.
I am very interested in the direction Panerai is going with a industry leading materials and construction like the LAB-iD. I have enough traditionalist brands. The new Panerai exclusive material like BMG-tech and Carbotech is exciting to me and a aggressive/ballsy move in watch making. I like this new aggressive move on the traditional and unique Panerai design. The new thinner P9010 movement has a twin fixed balance bridge now with 31 jewels and a dual barrel mainspring 72 hour power reserve. If you are a movement snob, what’s not to like??? Rolex is still using their old 3135 48hr power reserve movement in the Sub. Ugh.
I love Rolex and the new 3285 movement is fitting to today’s standards but milking the old 3135 movement another year is beyond conservative for even Rolex.

The Panerai Duo snap back case is rubbish but the new high end stuff is where my money will go. Panerai has always had a lot of haters because of their success and devoted followers. It’s become fashionable to pile on Panerai for making a few mistakes in typical fan boy style.
Panerai isn’t going anywhere as the core enthusiast are strong and Panerai is investing and developing the future cutting edge watch making materials.
The quick flippers have moved on to pick at Rolex bones and thats just great for us Paneristis.



Great post, great watch! Yes, Panerai has made a bunch of mistakes, but it also is capable of some really hot watches.

I have been wearing an all black watch all week for the first time....granted, it’s a Swatch, but it was picked by my kids for Father’s Day, was a total surprise and I love it.... if I get serious with a black watch, the 661 is at the top of my list.

Thanks for the great photos, Mystro. Keep ‘em coming. I’d love to see different strap combos, too.
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Old 22 June 2019, 05:28 AM   #53
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great pics!

after selling all my pams many years ago, carbotech is what brought me back to the brand.

love the weight and the look. much lighter than ceramic and even titanium

durability of the material seems to be closer to APs forged carbon than RMs NTPT
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Old 22 June 2019, 05:30 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Mystro View Post
Panerai is a brand that is actually doing something progressive in watch making I am excited with.
I am very interested in the direction Panerai is going with a industry leading materials and construction like the LAB-iD. I have enough traditionalist brands. The new Panerai exclusive material like BMG-tech and Carbotech is exciting to me and a aggressive/ballsy move in watch making. I like this new aggressive move on the traditional and unique Panerai design. The new thinner P9010 movement has a twin fixed balance bridge now with 31 jewels and a dual barrel mainspring 72 hour power reserve. If you are a movement snob, whatís not to like??? Rolex is still using their old 3135 48hr power reserve movement in the Sub. Ugh.
I love Rolex and the new 3285 movement is fitting to todayís standards but milking the old 3135 movement another year is beyond conservative for even Rolex.

The Panerai Duo snap back case is rubbish but the new high end stuff is where my money will go. Panerai has always had a lot of haters because of their success and devoted followers. Itís become fashionable to pile on Panerai for making a few mistakes in typical fan boy style.
Panerai isnít going anywhere as the core enthusiast are strong and Panerai is investing and developing the future cutting edge watch making materials.
The quick flippers have moved on to pick at Rolex bones and thats just great for us Paneristis.
I just hope Jean-Marc Pontrouť doesn't do to Panerai what he did to Roger Dubois. He's already snuck in the fluorescent blue seconds hand which I didn't like initially, but have grown to appreciate. The problem with being trendy, is what is fashionable today isn't tomorrow. As Oscar wild said, "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.Ē

I can't help but think Panerai is on the verge of becoming a fashion brand. I hope I'm wrong.

Great pic (and watch) by the way
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Old 22 June 2019, 05:48 AM   #55
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Only time will tell how the blue second and the recent pop colored lume (blue,white,khaki green) will age...

When I look at my 20+ years watches,I see them as timeless classic



Rolex 16570 from 1995/1996 and Pam 23A from 1998 shown

We gotta wait at least 10 years (maybe in 2030??) to see how the now-recent panerais with pop of color will age...
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Old 22 June 2019, 05:55 AM   #56
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Only time will tell how the blue second and the recent pop colored lume (blue,white,khaki green) will age...

When I look at my 20+ years watches,I see them as timeless classic



Rolex 16570 from 1995/1996 and Pam 23A from 1998 shown

We gotta wait at least 10 years (maybe in 2030??) to see how the now-recent panerais with pop of color will age...
The blue is Panerai's signature color like green is to Rolex. The LVc Sub took alot of heat initially and no one wanted it. I bought mine below msrp.
My personal style is I like a touch of the Panerai blue on my "big black watch" This is why the 661 speaks to me. That said, if money was endless, I would own a Pam 616 even at 47mm because in a large dive watch, it looks so damn aggressive and in-your-face.

Hard to capture the rose gold hue but it looks very upscale in a high tech sort of way. Warm red flashes from the hands and markers as it moves in the sunlight. I cant capture it yet in still pics. It was a pleasant surprise I typically associate with my CHNR. Even my wife which is more conservative with jewelry coined the phrase "masculinity expensive looking" when she handled the 661 Carbotech. I think thats a accurate non-WIS description.

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Old 22 June 2019, 07:56 AM   #57
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I'm growing to like the blue seconds hand. I've been liking the 1389 more and more, the blue seconds hand and the ceramic bezel work well together.

I just hope the blue seconds hand doesnt become a blue hand set, and then blue bezel markers and then the full on 1980's fluorescent colour ways that the Roger Dubuis line devolved into under Pontrouť's watch.

Time will tell.
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Old 22 June 2019, 08:32 AM   #58
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I agree. The best of Panerai is in their past. They need to standardise a model range and make them properly. 30m water resistance on an Italian Navy dive watch is ridiculous, and that's only one of Richemont's heinous sins.

For those who love the brand, the best watches are already in the market, and available at a significant discount (compared to the ridiculous MSRP). The market doesn't need a flyback chrono GMT moon phase annual calendar with a power reserve and BBQ timer crammed into the already busy dial. Yet Richemont will make it anyway and take the brand further from its roots.
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Old 22 June 2019, 08:47 AM   #59
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Hard to capture the rose gold hue but it looks very upscale in a high tech sort of way. Warm red flashes from the hands and markers as it moves in the sunlight. I cant capture it yet in still pics. It was a pleasant surprise I typically associate with my CHNR. Even my wife which is more conservative with jewelry coined the phrase "masculinity expensive looking" when she handled the 661 Carbotech. I think thats a accurate non-WIS description.

Iím sold 661 is my next watch lol. It is true that it is impossible to capture the full extent of the quality with pics of Panerai. I donít find that true with Rolex imho. Honestly, I find the opposite to be true.
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Old 27 June 2019, 01:27 AM   #60
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Buy a 716 and call it a day.
Why, it has the same movement and is virtually the same watch as the original but for far less money and one that you know hasn't been fooled with.
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