ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

77T · 12 November 2018, 12:55 AM

That auction will be the ultimate “buy the seller first” transaction. Anyone buying it above the going street value for a modern 116520 is going to have a difficult provenance to sort out if ever selling it later. I’m not questioning its authenticity as a 116520 - but the premium is based upon it being a Rolex24 winner’s watch.

Not only are you trusting the auction house’s scrutiny (or lack thereof) - they cite the current owner as “AN IMPORTANT ASIAN COLLECTOR”. So you are trusting an unnamed previous owner who could have been the 2nd owner or even 3rd, or 4th owner.

In reality you don’t have a trace-back to the actual person who won the watch via any chain of custody.

As for historical racing importance, the 2014 race was the first as part of the new TUDOR United SportsCar Championship series (yet this race was still the Rolex24) - ROLEX had actually dropped US support of the year-long series. Also, it was the first race since the merger of the NASCAR sanctioned GRAND-AM Rolex Series and the IMSA Patron Tequila American Le Mans Series - basically NASCAR had just bought out its competitor. So a verified 2014 winners watch has that going for it.

Back to the provenance of this particular watch, there is a short, and potentially misleading, reference to the Action Express drivers team (Joao Barbosa, Christian Fittipaldi and Sebastien Bourdais) who won the 2014 race overall. One of those 3 drivers, plus the team owner (Bob Johnson), might have been the original owner of this 116520. But it is highly unlikely they sold theirs.

There are about 2-dozen other potential sources for that race winner’s watch because the Rolex24 has multiple class winners/owners. After the merger there were many more classes at this race because it takes years to fairly merge the technical specs. There were 6 classes running at that race, some teams had as many as 5 drivers + the owner who won a 116520. Hard to trace all those people down - but the Wiki is at: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014...urs_of_Daytona

But...I have some info that may bear on who may have been the original winner of this watch and the actual source. If you want that opinion, read on - if I’m boring anyone then move on to another post.

First some background...

There was a poorly made decision at the final lap of the 2014 race that rendered a change in the winner of the GT Daytona (GTD) category. A decision that was later reversed after the watches had been awarded. I know the officials and it was their worst day ever (after overseeing the race for over 24 hours).

The Race Director (RD) was new to this role - he had been the Clerk of the Course for many previous seasons - but the prior Race Director that he served had just jumped to INDYCAR at the end of 2013. So this race fell to him as his first-ever IMSA role as leader. Worse, it was the first year where NASCAR had replaced the FIA Stewards who made this type of decision in the past.

A last-lap judgment by this RD ostensibly made GTD winners of Audi drivers Spencer Pumpelly, Markus Winkelhock, Nelson Canache Jr. and Tim Pappas in the GT Daytona class. But after further review, IMSA reversed the ruling and awarded the win to the Level 5 Motorsports Ferrari team, which included Scott Tucker, Jeff Segal, Townsend Bell and Bill Sweedler.

Now here is a twisted turn - or a twist of justice - that directly bears on this watch’s original ownership. Level 5’s lead driver (who was also the owner) was Scott Tucker. In January, 2018 he was convicted of federal crimes associated with his payday lending businesses. He was sentenced to 16 years in prison and all his corporate and race team assets were auctioned off by the bankruptcy court and later federal asset recovery auctions.

I strongly suspect, and it is highly likely, that this 116520 is one of those assets. Scott would have received 2 watches - one as owner, and one as driver. If so, it has an inauspicious history in this regard: The money that funded his win at the 2014 Rolex24 came from the criminal fleecing of mostly soldiers and sailors at his predatory payday lending centers. I believe the bidders deserve some better info on the history of this watch if they wish to steer clear of anything associated with tainted history.

I know many of the other teams and drivers - and, despite many having multiple winner’s watches, they don’t sell their trophies. Hope that story sheds some light on an otherwise obtuse auction...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Wiener48 · 12 November 2018, 06:41 PM

Wow, good post. Will answer later, thanks for it.

Found this at the Geneva Airport, at the shop

Carrera_2 · 12 November 2018, 07:34 PM

What would it be on the warranty card ? Rolex SA ?

Wiener48 · 12 November 2018, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera_2

What would it be on the warranty card ? Rolex SA ?

Rolex NY and the name of driver, team owner etc.,...

Wiener48 · 27 November 2018, 03:54 PM

Auction is running

https://www.phillips.com/auctions/au...rtists%3DRolex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiener48

Next one at Auction - Phillips HK 27.11.2018

Details https://www.phillips.com/detail/ROLEX/HK080218/965

Emreozcan · 27 November 2018, 05:28 PM

Careful. 75% of fake Daytonas I've seen is either Winner AD Daytona or Winner Lemans

Wiener48 · 27 November 2018, 11:03 PM

It's not only the watch, also the biger box, Name of Driver/Team etc.,...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emreozcan

Careful. 75% of fake Daytonas I've seen is either Winner AD Daytona or Winner Lemans

Wiener48 · 27 November 2018, 11:05 PM

Sold for 48.000 $ plus some aditional taxes

965
Rolex
Ref. 116520 “The Winner”
Model: Cosmograph Daytona
An extremely rare and outstanding stainless steel chronograph wristwatch with “Rolex at Daytona 24, 2014 Winner” case back, bracelet, international warranty and special “Daytona” presentation box
Estimate HK$300,000 - 600,000
Sold for HK$375,000

Wiener48 · 15 December 2018, 07:30 AM

The real deal when you sai Daytona!

77T · 15 December 2018, 10:58 AM

Where did you see/get a picture of that 2014 trophy?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

dtwer · 15 December 2018, 12:42 PM

Thank you OP for posting this and all of you for this interesting discussions, this is such a fascinating history.

Wiener48 · 16 December 2018, 02:11 AM

Thank you, try to keep the thread alive, there is nothing about these special models.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtwer

Thank you OP for posting this and all of you for this interesting discussions, this is such a fascinating history.

Wiener48 · 16 December 2018, 02:11 AM

Ferrari won 2014 in GT, this is the trophy

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77T

Where did you see/get a picture of that 2014 trophy?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

77T · 16 December 2018, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiener48

Ferrari won 2014 in GT, this is the trophy

Yeah, I know that all too well...messiest action after the race that year.

I was asking where you took that pic.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wiener48 · 16 December 2018, 03:47 AM

Sorry, Padua at Michelotto

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77T

Yeah, I know that all too well...messiest action after the race that year.

I was asking where you took that pic.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

77T · 16 December 2018, 03:55 AM

Thanks - I’m glad Ferrari won after the bogus penalty assessed in the final lap by a 2nd rate Race Director.

It wasn’t Ferrari’s fault on track and they deserved the win. The victory is marred by the fact that the American-based team was corruptly financed by its team principle who is now in Federal Prison.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Wiener48 · 17 December 2018, 09:22 AM

You know this all very well...

Do you own one of the winners watches?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77T

Thanks - I’m glad Ferrari won after the bogus penalty assessed in the final lap by a 2nd rate Race Director.

It wasn’t Ferrari’s fault on track and they deserved the win. The victory is marred by the fact that the American-based team was corruptly financed by its team principle who is now in Federal Prison.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

77T · 17 December 2018, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiener48

You know this all very well...

Do you own one of the winners watches?

No, never was on any team - friends and acquaintances have been, though. Helped with one guy’s sale of his watch when most of TRF doubted his veracity.

Personally, I’d only wear one if I had won it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Wiener48 · 5 January 2019, 11:08 PM

24H Daytona this month - which Daytona will give Rolex this year, again the BiColor?

Wiener48 · 30 January 2019, 09:28 PM

Again Bi Color

What Do The Rolex 24 Winners’ Watches Actually Look Like?

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...look-like.html

77T · 31 January 2019, 01:05 AM

Yep but they have been switching up the dial colors the past few years on the same TT 116503...

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Wiener48 · 3 February 2019, 07:13 PM

Remember Rolex 24H Daytoba 2019

Wiener48 · 3 February 2019, 07:17 PM

Are there any „Winners“ Daytona or Le Mans on the market?

Wiener48 · 21 March 2019, 04:18 PM

Any „Winners“ on the market?

Wiener48 · 28 March 2019, 02:31 AM

Fits perfectly here: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ta...mario-andretti

Talking Watches With Mario Andretti
One of the greatest race car drivers of all time shares the watches he's acquired over his legendary career.

Wiener48 · 28 March 2019, 04:13 AM

Best of the Best

Wiener48 · 13 May 2019, 10:51 AM

Very good thread about the „Winners“

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=655585

Thanks to user powerfunk for the thread

Wiener48 · 18 May 2019, 05:25 AM

Any „Winner Daytonas“ on the market?

Wiener48 · 15 June 2019, 02:36 AM

24H LM Week

Wiener48 · 23 August 2019, 10:18 PM

Any „Winners“ on the market?

12 November 2018, 12:55 AM	#91
77T 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: PaulG Location: Georgia Posts: 40,725	That auction will be the ultimate “buy the seller first” transaction. Anyone buying it above the going street value for a modern 116520 is going to have a difficult provenance to sort out if ever selling it later. I’m not questioning its authenticity as a 116520 - but the premium is based upon it being a Rolex24 winner’s watch. Not only are you trusting the auction house’s scrutiny (or lack thereof) - they cite the current owner as “AN IMPORTANT ASIAN COLLECTOR”. So you are trusting an unnamed previous owner who could have been the 2nd owner or even 3rd, or 4th owner. In reality you don’t have a trace-back to the actual person who won the watch via any chain of custody. As for historical racing importance, the 2014 race was the first as part of the new TUDOR United SportsCar Championship series (yet this race was still the Rolex24) - ROLEX had actually dropped US support of the year-long series. Also, it was the first race since the merger of the NASCAR sanctioned GRAND-AM Rolex Series and the IMSA Patron Tequila American Le Mans Series - basically NASCAR had just bought out its competitor. So a verified 2014 winners watch has that going for it. Back to the provenance of this particular watch, there is a short, and potentially misleading, reference to the Action Express drivers team (Joao Barbosa, Christian Fittipaldi and Sebastien Bourdais) who won the 2014 race overall. One of those 3 drivers, plus the team owner (Bob Johnson), might have been the original owner of this 116520. But it is highly unlikely they sold theirs. There are about 2-dozen other potential sources for that race winner’s watch because the Rolex24 has multiple class winners/owners. After the merger there were many more classes at this race because it takes years to fairly merge the technical specs. There were 6 classes running at that race, some teams had as many as 5 drivers + the owner who won a 116520. Hard to trace all those people down - but the Wiki is at: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014...urs_of_Daytona But...I have some info that may bear on who may have been the original winner of this watch and the actual source. If you want that opinion, read on - if I’m boring anyone then move on to another post. First some background... There was a poorly made decision at the final lap of the 2014 race that rendered a change in the winner of the GT Daytona (GTD) category. A decision that was later reversed after the watches had been awarded. I know the officials and it was their worst day ever (after overseeing the race for over 24 hours). The Race Director (RD) was new to this role - he had been the Clerk of the Course for many previous seasons - but the prior Race Director that he served had just jumped to INDYCAR at the end of 2013. So this race fell to him as his first-ever IMSA role as leader. Worse, it was the first year where NASCAR had replaced the FIA Stewards who made this type of decision in the past. A last-lap judgment by this RD ostensibly made GTD winners of Audi drivers Spencer Pumpelly, Markus Winkelhock, Nelson Canache Jr. and Tim Pappas in the GT Daytona class. But after further review, IMSA reversed the ruling and awarded the win to the Level 5 Motorsports Ferrari team, which included Scott Tucker, Jeff Segal, Townsend Bell and Bill Sweedler. Now here is a twisted turn - or a twist of justice - that directly bears on this watch’s original ownership. Level 5’s lead driver (who was also the owner) was Scott Tucker. In January, 2018 he was convicted of federal crimes associated with his payday lending businesses. He was sentenced to 16 years in prison and all his corporate and race team assets were auctioned off by the bankruptcy court and later federal asset recovery auctions. I strongly suspect, and it is highly likely, that this 116520 is one of those assets. Scott would have received 2 watches - one as owner, and one as driver. If so, it has an inauspicious history in this regard: The money that funded his win at the 2014 Rolex24 came from the criminal fleecing of mostly soldiers and sailors at his predatory payday lending centers. I believe the bidders deserve some better info on the history of this watch if they wish to steer clear of anything associated with tainted history. I know many of the other teams and drivers - and, despite many having multiple winner’s watches, they don’t sell their trophies. Hope that story sheds some light on an otherwise obtuse auction... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro __________________ Does anyone really know what time it is?

15 December 2018, 10:58 AM	#100
77T 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: PaulG Location: Georgia Posts: 40,725	Where did you see/get a picture of that 2014 trophy? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro __________________ Does anyone really know what time it is?

16 December 2018, 03:55 AM	#106
77T 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: PaulG Location: Georgia Posts: 40,725	Thanks - I’m glad Ferrari won after the bogus penalty assessed in the final lap by a 2nd rate Race Director. It wasn’t Ferrari’s fault on track and they deserved the win. The victory is marred by the fact that the American-based team was corruptly financed by its team principle who is now in Federal Prison. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro __________________ Does anyone really know what time it is?

31 January 2019, 01:05 AM	#111
77T 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: PaulG Location: Georgia Posts: 40,725	Yep but they have been switching up the dial colors the past few years on the same TT 116503... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro __________________ Does anyone really know what time it is?

12 November 2018, 07:34 PM	#93
Carrera_2 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: London, UK Watch: 116710LN Posts: 114	What would it be on the warranty card ? Rolex SA ?

27 November 2018, 05:28 PM	#96
Emreozcan "TRF" Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Turkey Posts: 117	Careful. 75% of fake Daytonas I've seen is either Winner AD Daytona or Winner Lemans

27 November 2018, 11:05 PM	#98
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Sold for 48.000 $ plus some aditional taxes 965 Rolex Ref. 116520 “The Winner” Model: Cosmograph Daytona An extremely rare and outstanding stainless steel chronograph wristwatch with “Rolex at Daytona 24, 2014 Winner” case back, bracelet, international warranty and special “Daytona” presentation box Estimate HK$300,000 - 600,000 Sold for HK$375,000

15 December 2018, 12:42 PM	#101
dtwer "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: midwest Watch: DJ 41 Posts: 1,474	Thank you OP for posting this and all of you for this interesting discussions, this is such a fascinating history.

5 January 2019, 11:08 PM	#109
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	24H Daytona this month - which Daytona will give Rolex this year, again the BiColor?

30 January 2019, 09:28 PM	#110
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Again Bi Color What Do The Rolex 24 Winners’ Watches Actually Look Like? http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...look-like.html

3 February 2019, 07:17 PM	#113
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Are there any „Winners“ Daytona or Le Mans on the market?

21 March 2019, 04:18 PM	#114
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Any „Winners“ on the market?

28 March 2019, 02:31 AM	#115
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Fits perfectly here: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ta...mario-andretti Talking Watches With Mario Andretti One of the greatest race car drivers of all time shares the watches he's acquired over his legendary career.

13 May 2019, 10:51 AM	#117
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Very good thread about the „Winners“ https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=655585 Thanks to user powerfunk for the thread

23 August 2019, 10:18 PM	#120
Wiener48 Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vienna Posts: 1,299	Any „Winners“ on the market?

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