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Old 24 January 2020, 08:33 AM   #1
Cozmopak
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Lang and Heyne

Thoughts on the brand? Any current owners? There aren’t very many for sale on the secondary market, which is likely a function of their small production numbers, but may also speak to their quality.

How do they compare to Lange Sohne? Obviously, there’s a difference in scale.
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Old 24 January 2020, 09:21 AM   #2
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If you are looking at Lange and Heyne you may also want to look at Moritz Grossmann.
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Old 24 January 2020, 09:30 AM   #3
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L&H is a small independent brand and makes probably not more than 200 watches. I owned a Frederick III time only watch. Very good build quality on par with ALS.

Both their founders ( one of which was Marco Lang a well regarded watchmaker ) have left the brand and it's probably not a good development for the brand as he was responsibility for most of the creative impetus.
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Old 24 January 2020, 09:37 AM   #4
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Yes, I’ve heard that Marco Lang left several years ago. I like their designs still.

Grossman movements are gorgeous, but their dial is a little bit too austere for me.
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Old 24 January 2020, 10:40 AM   #5
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Lang left in 2019, Heyne left a few years back.

Buying now is not recommended. Let's see if they manage to survive.
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Old 24 January 2020, 11:45 AM   #6
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Lang left in 2019, Heyne left a few years back.

Buying now is not recommended. Let's see if they manage to survive.
This. You don’t need to think any more, it should be off the radar for near term.
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Old 24 January 2020, 12:47 PM   #7
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Shame. I like their stuff
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Old 24 January 2020, 10:31 PM   #8
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Lang left in 2019, Heyne left a few years back.

Buying now is not recommended. Let's see if they manage to survive.
What a load of f***ing bollocks! You’ve just written off a perfectly fine company without any good reason.
L&H are part of Tempus Arte Group, which includes movement and parts manufacturer UWD.

Has Speake-Marin disappeared since Peter left them almost 3 years ago?
And Mirko Heyne hasn’t been around since 2002, a year after the brand first formed, which is far more than “a few years”.

If I’m correct, Jens Schneider is running the company, having come from Moritz Grossmann, and been deeply involved with the Zeitwerk whilst at Lange & Sohne.

Unless you know something none of the rest of us do, then stop peddling nonsense about the brand’s impending demise.
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Old 24 January 2020, 11:00 PM   #9
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What a load of f***ing bollocks! You’ve just written off a perfectly fine company without any good reason.
L&H are part of Tempus Arte Group, which includes movement and parts manufacturer UWD.

Has Speake-Marin disappeared since Peter left them almost 3 years ago?
And Mirko Heyne hasn’t been around since 2002, a year after the brand first formed, which is far more than “a few years”.

If I’m correct, Jens Schneider is running the company, having come from Moritz Grossmann, and been deeply involved with the Zeitwerk whilst at Lange & Sohne.

Unless you know something none of the rest of us do, then stop peddling nonsense about the brand’s impending demise.
I don't think anyone here completely wrote off L&H. A co-founder and major influence in the company recently left, I don't think it's unreasonable to advise a wait and see approach.
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Old 24 January 2020, 11:00 PM   #10
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I like their stuff
+1

Not many around and with one AD in the US they aren't easy to look at here and buying sight unseen is a no go with me. I travel to Germany a lot and speak fluent German so I might try to source one there but even in their home country there are only 3 ADs. My AD in CT had a pre-owned one a while ago for a good price but I was asleep at the wheel.
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Old 24 January 2020, 11:58 PM   #11
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I don't think anyone here completely wrote off L&H. A co-founder and major influence in the company recently left, I don't think it's unreasonable to advise a wait and see approach.


100%.

As a real buyer who did a lot of groundwork in the last 18 months or so in terms of talking to owners, talking to the brand and several dealers and seeing the watches in the metal (not an easy thing to do) MY reaction to Marco leaving was let’s wait and see. I think that’s all we are really saying.

The change 100% impacted my intended purchase and I was (am) pretty happy that I did not have an order in at the time.


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Old 25 January 2020, 12:00 AM   #12
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Lang and Heyne

And just to add L&H without either L or H does not have the same attraction. The same as Journe without FP would not. This is absolutely part of the appeal in these watches.

I am not saying that the watches will not be as good or have the same quality if and when their namesakes depart. BUT let’s not kid ourselves that the watchmaker him or herself IS a large part of the story and attraction.


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Old 25 January 2020, 12:16 AM   #13
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+1

Not many around and with one AD in the US they aren't easy to look at here and buying sight unseen is a no go with me. I travel to Germany a lot and speak fluent German so I might try to source one there but even in their home country there are only 3 ADs. My AD in CT had a pre-owned one a while ago for a good price but I was asleep at the wheel.
When they produce ~60 pieces annually, just like RW Smith and Kari Voutilainen, how many dealers would you expect them to have?
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Old 25 January 2020, 12:17 AM   #14
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That’s a very valid point about proceeding with some trepidation when the founders are no longer present even though they are in the name of the brand.

If there’s a material difference in quality, then that would definitely turn me off; however, if they are still producing high-quality pieces, that’s all that matters to me. My decisions are based on aesthetics.

After doing your groundwork, did you feel as though the quality was declining after the departure of the founders? Jens Schneider, from what I understand, is a skilled craftsman.
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Old 25 January 2020, 12:31 AM   #15
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When they produce under 100 pieces annually, just like RW Smith and Kari Voutilainen, how many dealers would you expect them to have?
I would think that in a market like the US there would at least be 2 ...one on each coast. Voutilainen has 2 in the NY/CT area and other smaller manufacturers like Laurent Ferrier, Grönefeld and Urban Jurgensen have a couple. I would at least expect one of the 4 well known dealers of independent brands on the east coast like Manfredi, Cellini, Govberg or Pulli to be an AD.
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Old 25 January 2020, 01:21 AM   #16
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I don't think anyone here completely wrote off L&H. A co-founder and major influence in the company recently left, I don't think it's unreasonable to advise a wait and see approach.
There’s a fundamental difference between advising caution versus not buying.
If every potential customer of the brand took that approach, what exactly do you think will happen?
What exactly are you waiting on, and for how long before the green light is given?

Bear in mind that Marco was generally unhappy since 2013, it took him long enough to move out.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2019/12/mar...tchmaking.html

Moreover, since that time, no-one questioned Lang & Heyne’s viability, with the same 50-60 watches made each year.

If Jens can work for GUB, AL&S (especially on the Zeitwerk), and MG, then I think it’s fair to say that he has a fair idea of what he’s doing.
I don’t see any grounds for the pessimism being displayed.
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Old 25 January 2020, 01:35 AM   #17
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I would think that in a market like the US there would at least be 2 ...one on each coast. Voutilainen has 2 in the NY/CT area and other smaller manufacturers like Laurent Ferrier, Grönefeld and Urban Jurgensen have a couple. I would at least expect one of the 4 well known dealers of independent brands on the east coast like Manfredi, Cellini, Govberg or Pulli to be an AD.
I’d hardly call Manfredi a second KV dealer – they’ve one model listed on their website!
LF, UJ, and Gronefeld all produce more watches than L&H does, and maybe that’s been Marco’s failing – he was happy with who came to him rather than going to dealers to try to get his brand picked up.
I know he talked a good game of wanting to increase output to 100 pieces annually, but never did it. Perhaps what Jens will do, as well as find more dealers, if they feel they need them.
It could well be that the vast bulk of their sales are direct to clients, who want certain elements customised.
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Old 25 January 2020, 01:47 AM   #18
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I’d hardly call Manfredi a second KV dealer – they’ve one model listed on their website!
Just because that is all they have on their website doesn't mean that's all they have! I also wouldn't assume that just because Cellini has a couple of pics on their website that they actually have all those models in stock either. Fact is they are an AD so not sure why you are discounting that. Are we going to start saying that Rolex and Patek ADs that have limited stock are not ADs?
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:13 AM   #19
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I’d hardly call Manfredi a second KV dealer – they’ve one model listed on their website!
I live nearby and visit Manfredi regularly, they have usually 4 models on display, which is sufficient for a high-end low volume brand. You can also custom order Kari pieces at Manfredi as well.
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:18 AM   #20
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Just because that is all they have on their website doesn't mean that's all they have! I also wouldn't assume that just because Cellini has a couple of pics on their website that they actually have all those models in stock either. Fact is they are an AD so not sure why you are discounting that. Are we going to start saying that Rolex and Patek ADs that have limited stock are not ADs?
Rolex and PP have to maintain minimum stock levels as dictated by their agency agreement
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:19 AM   #21
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There’s a fundamental difference between advising caution versus not buying.
If every potential customer of the brand took that approach, what exactly do you think will happen?
What exactly are you waiting on, and for how long before the green light is given?

Bear in mind that Marco was generally unhappy since 2013, it took him long enough to move out.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2019/12/mar...tchmaking.html

Moreover, since that time, no-one questioned Lang & Heyne’s viability, with the same 50-60 watches made each year.

If Jens can work for GUB, AL&S (especially on the Zeitwerk), and MG, then I think it’s fair to say that he has a fair idea of what he’s doing.
I don’t see any grounds for the pessimism being displayed.
There's a fundamental difference between a wait and see approach and advising to never purchase from that brand. The fact remains, we do not know the impact of his departure. This goes for any company, when a CEO (especially if they were a founder) steps down the market takes a pause. There is trepidation. It's the sensible approach.

You're taking these reasonable pieces of advice oddly personal.
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:19 AM   #22
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I live nearby and visit Manfredi regularly, they have usually 4 models on display, which is sufficient for a high-end low volume brand. You can also custom order Kari pieces at Manfredi as well.
4 models would be 10% of Kari’s annual production
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:27 AM   #23
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4 models would be 10% of Kari’s annual production
You're assuming complete turnover.
One of the watches (a custom piece made for Manfredi) has been in that case for probably 2 years now.
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:40 AM   #24
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Rolex and PP have to maintain minimum stock levels as dictated by their agency agreement
You really think that is being enforced when those manufacturers aren't shipping very much stock to dealers on watches people want to buy? I was using them as an example to make my point of an AD not always having every model and a ton of inventory in stock.
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Old 25 January 2020, 03:42 AM   #25
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I live nearby and visit Manfredi regularly, they have usually 4 models on display, which is sufficient for a high-end low volume brand. You can also custom order Kari pieces at Manfredi as well.
That has been my experience as well and I was just there last week...that's why I said their website is not representative of actual stock.
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Old 25 January 2020, 06:47 AM   #26
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This is a pretty nice watch, regardless of the instability in leadership:

https://www.worldoftime.de/en/lang.heyne/-27393.html
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Old 25 January 2020, 07:07 AM   #27
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...

You're taking these reasonable pieces of advice oddly personal.
Not at all, you’re reading far more into anything I’ve written.

My comments are nothing more than simply not seeing the need to effectively talk a company down without anything concrete to back up what is a fatalistic knee jerk reaction to something which occurred 7-8 months ago.

As far as I’m concerned, L&H now is no different from L&H in June/July last year, other than someone decided to leave/sell his share, just like Peter Speake-Marin did.
When you consider that an L&H is somewhat a cut-price RW Smith, why wouldn't you want to express support for them and their continued existence?

By way of a yardstick, Peter is by all accounts an extremely accomplished watchmaker, so what has happened to his former company since the departure? Nothing… absolutely nothing. They haven’t disappeared, and are still making the quality watches they’re renowned for.
As such, what grounds have the naysayers in this thread to recommend that others don’t buy a Lang & Heyne now?
Even with Marco at the helm, there’s never been any guarantee the company wasn’t going to cease to exist, has there?
So when will it be “safe” to buy one? When their accounts have been made public?

Do we know for certain that Akrivia/Rexhep Rexhepi is going to be around in 3-5 years time?
Of course not, but yet that doesn’t stop some members from talking them up because they admire the look of the Contemporaine.
So is the true reason for expressing doubts about L&H down to the fact their pieces don’t appeal as much as some others?

Just for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever, I’d be standing up for any other brand (independent or otherwise) where similar nonsense was being mentioned – it just so happens that it’s L&H in this instance.
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Old 25 January 2020, 07:19 AM   #28
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This is a pretty nice watch, regardless of the instability in leadership:

https://www.worldoftime.de/en/lang.heyne/-27393.html
In case it’s handy for you to visit – https://www.nyjchicago.com/product/4...no-4-rose-gold

I also recall seeing an image of the Frederich III’s bridge having been custom engraved.

https://horologium.com.au/2015/09/15...friedrich-iii/
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Old 25 January 2020, 07:31 AM   #29
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In case it’s handy for you to visit – https://www.nyjchicago.com/product/4...no-4-rose-gold

I also recall seeing an image of the Frederich III’s bridge having been custom engraved.
Great find. I have family in Chicago and visit frequently.
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Old 25 January 2020, 08:20 AM   #30
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If you are looking at Lange and Heyne you may also want to look at Moritz Grossmann.
Grossmann finishing is so exquisite. I wish they changed their logo design, though...
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