Independent Watchmakers - The next level above the Holy Trinity?

[Lester]

Some say that Independent Watchmakers produce watches that exceed the quality of the Holy Trinity. Do you agree?

Here is a video review of the Awesome Hautlence Vegabond TV shaped watch. Enjoy!

Link : https://youtu.be/Br97g6i1WcU

[Pongster]

I think the Holy Trinity have offerings that entrenches them in their place.

But some independents do have offerings that are worthy of being in conversation with the trinity.

[Pongster]

And there are non-independents (like ALS and Grand Seiko/Credor) that can also compete with the trinity like the independents.

[locutus49]

Independents may offer a very high level of horology but do they back their products and have the reliability (relatively) of the Holy Trinity? History and backing of the brand, and resale, counts for something.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Independents may offer a very high level of horology but do they back their products and have the reliability (relatively) of the Holy Trinity? History and backing of the brand, and resale, counts for something.

Spoke to my AD the other who told me about a client that had purchased a 100K FPJ (not from him) and had some issues with it. FPJ himself flew to the states, picked up the watch and returned it corrected a month later.

[JayHantz]

Originally Posted by GoingPlaces

Spoke to my AD the other who told me about a client that had purchased a 100K FPJ (not from him) and had some issues with it. FPJ himself flew to the states, picked up the watch and returned it corrected a month later.

That is absolutely amazing. I like that they are really invested into their brand (as they should be with many of these independents) and stand behind their work. Where we have horror stories of service centers (Rolex and others) returning watches with scratches, worse problems, and turn around times almost as long as wait lists.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by JayHantz

That is absolutely amazing. I like that they are really invested into their brand (as they should be with many of these independents) and stand behind their work. Where we have horror stories of service centers (Rolex and others) returning watches with scratches, worse problems, and turn around times almost as long as wait lists.

It really is. I truly believe the next level of collecting, once you have the "right" pieces is fully independent. Once you do, there is no turning back. Would love to hear from members with firsthand knowledge.

[Brew]

Perhaps. For one life-time . . . .

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by JayHantz

That is absolutely amazing. I like that they are really invested into their brand (as they should be with many of these independents) and stand behind their work. Where we have horror stories of service centers (Rolex and others) returning watches with scratches, worse problems, and turn around times almost as long as wait lists.

I hear you, but then again it’s much more difficult to tightly control quality and service with literally millions of watches in service vs, hundreds pr maybe thousands from the independents.

I bet on a percentage basis the quality / service between The big brands and the independents is still pretty close comparatively speaking

[FTX I]

Paging Jocke. He's our expert on independent watchmakers.

[Slider817]

There are varying levels of Quality in the independents, as with with the major brands and even within the trinity brands. On the high end of Vacheron and Patek They are up there with the best of the independents. Each brand offers different things, Patek Repeater and Enamel work is unmatched, Vacherons highly complicated watches stand out as some of the most creative and impressive engineering marvels in watchmaking.

I think the disparity between the higher end independent makers and the mid-level priced watches from the Trinity is where you will see a marked advantage in quality, design and innovation in favor of the independents, when pricing is pretty similar.

[myporsche]

Get a Lange and enjoy the benefits of a well backed company (Richmont) while enjoying smale scale hand crafted pieces of art.

[Justindo]

Originally Posted by myporsche

Get a Lange and enjoy the benefits of a well backed company (Richmont) while enjoying smale scale hand crafted pieces of art.

I agree. To get appreciably better quality than Lange, one is looking at Dufour and Smith. If you have a huge budget, the top end Vacherons and Pateks are also quite nice, although the latter is mostly machine finished for their sub $200,000 models. The amazing hand finishing of Lange for around $10,000 is basically impossible to beat. And the independents definitely vary in terms of quality. Some are better and some are worse than "mainstream" brands.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by Justindo

I agree. To get appreciably better quality than Lange, one is looking at Dufour and Smith. If you have a huge budget, the top end Vacherons and Pateks are also quite nice, although the latter is mostly machine finished for their sub $200,000 models. The amazing hand finishing of Lange for around $10,000 is basically impossible to beat. And the independents definitely vary in terms of quality. Some are better and some are worse than "mainstream" brands.

The sad part is that Dufour isn't really taking orders anymore. :(

I'd throw FP Journe in the mix here. At least, some of the Journe models.

[tom2517]

As someone who has owned Urwerk and De Bethune, and currently still owns Credor Eichi II and GS SBGZ001, I think the biggest problem with indies is besides you don't know how long the brand will last, and the second value is terrible. Outside of Dufour and Smith, you will likely take a big hit. The money I have lost on Urwerk and DB combined, I can buy a Rolex Platona at MSRP and a steel Daytona at grey market price. Even GF GMTs, they are listed for half a mil plus, but I was offered 200k for a used one.

Quality wise like someone already said, it varies, many indies's charm is they are different than the main stream brands in terms of design, for instance Urwerk 210, but is it finished better? I can't say it is because Urwerk wasn't finished with traditional standards.

Now the Credor Eichi II and SBGZ001 is finished at the highest level, to see similar type of hand beveling on a Patek you would need to buy a half million dollar Patek minute repeater. But these Seiko Micro Artist Studio watches are not cheap either and likely will take a loss as well when selling them.

So are indies the next level up from the holy trinity? Yes and no, certain aspects yes but others no, and when you throw in brand prestige, second hand value, and etc., in general I say stick with the main stream brands (better yet just Rolex and Patek). And if you really like certain indies, try to find a used one to buy.

[TJMike]

Originally Posted by tom2517

As someone who has owned Urwerk and De Bethune, and currently still owns Credor Eichi II and GS SBGZ001, I think the biggest problem with indies is besides you don't know how long the brand will last, and the second value is terrible. Outside of Dufour and Smith, you will likely take a big hit. The money I have lost on Urwerk and DB combined, I can buy a Rolex Platona at MSRP and a steel Daytona at grey market price. Even GF GMTs, they are listed for half a mil plus, but I was offered 200k for a used one.

Quality wise like someone already said, it varies, many indies's charm is they are different than the main stream brands in terms of design, for instance Urwerk 210, but is it finished better? I can't say it is because Urwerk wasn't finished with traditional standards.

Now the Credor Eichi II and SBGZ001 is finished at the highest level, to see similar type of hand beveling on a Patek you would need to buy a half million dollar Patek minute repeater. But these Seiko Micro Artist Studio watches are not cheap either and likely will take a loss as well when selling them.

So are indies the next level up from the holy trinity? Yes and no, certain aspects yes but others no, and when you throw in brand prestige, second hand value, and etc., in general I say stick with the main stream brands (better yet just Rolex and Patek). And if you really like certain indies, try to find a used one to buy.

There is no need for such a balanced response on a watch forum!

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by tom2517

As someone who has owned Urwerk and De Bethune, and currently still owns Credor Eichi II and GS SBGZ001, I think the biggest problem with indies is besides you don't know how long the brand will last, and the second value is terrible. Outside of Dufour and Smith, you will likely take a big hit. The money I have lost on Urwerk and DB combined, I can buy a Rolex Platona at MSRP and a steel Daytona at grey market price. Even GF GMTs, they are listed for half a mil plus, but I was offered 200k for a used one.

Quality wise like someone already said, it varies, many indies's charm is they are different than the main stream brands in terms of design, for instance Urwerk 210, but is it finished better? I can't say it is because Urwerk wasn't finished with traditional standards.

Now the Credor Eichi II and SBGZ001 is finished at the highest level, to see similar type of hand beveling on a Patek you would need to buy a half million dollar Patek minute repeater. But these Seiko Micro Artist Studio watches are not cheap either and likely will take a loss as well when selling them.

So are indies the next level up from the holy trinity? Yes and no, certain aspects yes but others no, and when you throw in brand prestige, second hand value, and etc., in general I say stick with the main stream brands (better yet just Rolex and Patek). And if you really like certain indies, try to find a used one to buy.

While this is a great post it again brings up value discussion which has little to do with the original "quality" query about the Holy Trinity.

On the quality front, I own many independent pieces and haven't had any issues myself. For me, the difference is on the innovation front. Go look at this year's Only Watch pieces and look at what Patek has offered V FP Journe and DeBethune/Urwerk.

Patek and Rolex clearly take the easier path, with simple dial color changes every few years. Look at the Rolex Submariner and Daytona movements... all need to be updated but they haven't bothered since people are demanding them anyway. Patek's recent update on the 5711 movement added hacking seconds, is that really innovation?

And in regards to your value comment, everyone who purchased a Patek 5170 or 5270 at retail (excluding most recent platinum versions) has lost a lot of $, so I don't see the argument of sticking with Patek or Rolex for value retention when buying dress pieces (Rolex Cellini anyone?).

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by eviperman

While this is a great post it again brings up value discussion which has little to do with the original "quality" query about the Holy Trinity.



On the quality front, I own many independent pieces and haven't had any issues myself. For me, the difference is on the innovation front. Go look at this year's Only Watch pieces and look at what Patek has offered V FP Journe and DeBethune/Urwerk.



Patek and Rolex clearly take the easier path, with simple dial color changes every few years. Look at the Rolex Submariner and Daytona movements... all need to be updated but they haven't bothered since people are demanding them anyway. Patek's recent update on the 5711 movement added hacking seconds, is that really innovation?



And in regards to your value comment, everyone who purchased a Patek 5170 or 5270 at retail (excluding most recent platinum versions) has lost a lot of $, so I don't see the argument of sticking with Patek or Rolex for value retention when buying dress pieces (Rolex Cellini anyone?).

Yeah I brought up value because in the end that is what 99% of the people care about. And as for Rolex and Patek, I was taking about models that retain value, but yes many models also loses $.


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[GB-man]

Yes if you have oil money I don’t see why you’d be collecting Rolex and Patek. The major brands are ultimately a hand cuff put on those like myself who cannot afford to lose untold thousands on the other end and are a whore for sport watches.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by tom2517

Yeah I brought up value because in the end that is what 99% of the people care about. And as for Rolex and Patek, I was taking about models that retain value, but yes many models also loses $.


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Value retention is not something I care about, and I'm certainly not in a 1% minority. If that was the case, there wouldn't be anyone buying the vast majority (probably 99%) of watches that lose $ the second you leave the AD/boutique. If they cared so much about value retention they'd buy used or "new" from a dealer.

I buy watches that appeal to me to own, with no intention of ever reselling/trading them. If a watch goes up 50% or down 50% it only means something if you sell it. It's exactly the same with cars, I don't purchase a car with value retention in mind.

Buy what you love and can afford, it's really that simple.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by eviperman

Value retention is not something I care about, and I'm certainly not in a 1% minority. If that was the case, there wouldn't be anyone buying the vast majority (probably 99%) of watches that lose $ the second you leave the AD/boutique. If they cared so much about value retention they'd buy used or "new" from a dealer.

I buy watches that appeal to me to own, with no intention of ever reselling/trading them. If a watch goes up 50% or down 50% it only means something if you sell it. It's exactly the same with cars, I don't purchase a car with value retention in mind.

Buy what you love and can afford, it's really that simple.

When I said 99% because that’s what it literally feels like in these forums, especially the Rolex and Patek forum, how much is it worth, where can I find it at MSRP, how high do you think it will go, and etc.

And I never buy watches with the intention to sell either, who wants to lose 90k over two indie watches? But sometimes you just fell out of love, or once you owned them, it doesn’t feel special anymore. Watches we don’t yet own are usually always more attractive.

Yes if I don’t sell then technically I don’t lose any money, but I’m not the type that hoard things that I don’t use or wear, once it fell out if flavor I want to get rid of it.


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[Jay (Eire)]

Yes, 100% agree with that.

If it’s finishing you value, or appreciate most, then there are options in the single figure thousands which will give you materially more than any Patek or VC or AP offered at multiples of that.

Hand finished at mid single figures:




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[Jocke]

When I buy independently I follow 2 simple rules.

I buy what I like and I keep it.

If you are afraid to loose your money, stick with Rolex and Patek.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by eviperman

And in regards to your value comment, everyone who purchased a Patek 5170 or 5270 at retail (excluding most recent platinum versions) has lost a lot of $, so I don't see the argument of sticking with Patek or Rolex for value retention when buying dress pieces (Rolex Cellini anyone?).

The 5270P actually trades about $20k below MSRP based on what I'm seeing these days.

[jenniferjanef]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

The 5270P actually trades about $20k below MSRP based on what I'm seeing these days.

My fellow collector friend bought a 5270P brand new double sealed from grey for usd144k only.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by jenniferjanef

My fellow collector friend bought a 5270P brand new double sealed from grey for usd144k only.

Yes, for sure. All Patek dress watches are suffering these days, which is why I don't view them as holding any better value than the independents I own.