Is it “illegal” for an AD to sell directly to a Grey?

[L_S_SHOE]

By illegal I mean is it against the Rolex rules. I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine there are all kinds of easily discoverable documents that would be uncovered during a suit. E-mails, texts, you name it. If Rolex is serious about tackling the issue (debatable), then I wonder why they haven’t taken it this far. Punish an AD. Make an example of them. Sure sounds appealing. Even if all the transactions between AD and Grey go through an intermediary, I’m sure an intent to redistribute could be easily established.

I guess I’m just curious why this hasn’t been addressed by legal means. I’m under the impression that market manipulation is legally prohibited in most countries. These watches are not rare. Even the “rare” ones aren’t that rare. They can’t be bought easily from an AD. But they can be easily sourced from dozens of online dealers at massively jacked up prices. The supply has shifted from AD to Grey, with price gouging to boot. Sounds like a great class action case. The “class” in this case would be anyone who bought from a Grey and overpaid.

Again, I’m not a lawyer. I would be curious what the lawyers think.


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[locutus49]

Against Rolex rules, yes. Illegal, no.

[superpop]

Stick to not being a lawyer. There is no case here. I think the smart AD's are starting to realize that they are slowly killing themselves by supplying the flippers with watches as it diminishes the need for an AD in the first place. I suspect that is why some have come up with some of these rules around warranty cards etc...

[THC]

Who told you to put the balm on !!!!

[L_S_SHOE]

Originally Posted by superpop

Stick to not being a lawyer. There is no case here. I think the smart AD's are starting to realize that they are slowly killing themselves by supplying the flippers with watches as it diminishes the need for an AD in the first place. I suspect that is why some have come up with some of these rules around warranty cards etc...

No need to worry. My point is that there's collusion. Collusion sounds illegal, or something like that...

[djgallo]

Originally Posted by L_S_SHOE

By illegal I mean is it against the Rolex rules. I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine there are all kinds of easily discoverable documents that would be uncovered during a suit. E-mails, texts, you name it. If Rolex is serious about tackling the issue (debatable), then I wonder why they haven’t taken it this far. Punish an AD. Make an example of them. Sure sounds appealing. Even if all the transactions between AD and Grey go through an intermediary, I’m sure an intent to redistribute could be easily established.

I guess I’m just curious why this hasn’t been addressed by legal means. I’m under the impression that market manipulation is legally prohibited in most countries. These watches are not rare. Even the “rare” ones aren’t that rare. They can’t be bought easily from an AD. But they can be easily sourced from dozens of online dealers at massively jacked up prices. The supply has shifted from AD to Grey, with price gouging to boot. Sounds like a great class action case. The “class” in this case would be anyone who bought from a grey and overpaid.

Again, I’m not a lawyer. I would be curious what the lawyers think.


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I’m not an attorney but I know how they think ...if there is money to be made you can be sure THEY would already be doing it....

Alternately, Rolex is selling as fast as they can make it....so why change anything where is the incentive?

[RJRJRJ]

The AD can sell to whoever they want since they own the watches. If Rolex doesn't like it, they can terminate the AD agreement. It just makes the AD put more effort into hiding it.

[Bigblu10]

If an AD can sell a watch that MSRP for 12K out the back door for 16K+, do you think that hanging fruit is too hard to resist? Money talks.

[Brew]

Rolex has already sold the watch. What are its damages?

[LuminousMaximus]

A better question is;

Is it ok that as soon as a SS sport model comes in from ROLEX,

that this AD sells to a fictitious person, (cough Family member)

and then that fictitious person becomes a grey seller and sells

on a watch Forum?

[HogwldFLTR]

Originally Posted by L_S_SHOE

No need to worry. My point is that there's collusion. Collusion sounds illegal, or something like that...

How is someone being cheated or deceived. I see no collusion. Oh, Rolex? They may be being deceived but certainly not cheated. They have recourse of terminating the AD's supply if caught.

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by HogwldFLTR

How is someone being cheated or deceived. I see no collusion. Oh, Rolex? They may be being deceived but certainly not cheated. They have recourse of terminating the AD's supply if caught.

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[L_S_SHOE]

Originally Posted by HogwldFLTR

How is someone being cheated or deceived. I see no collusion. Oh, Rolex? They may be being deceived but certainly not cheated. They have recourse of terminating the AD's supply if caught.

I would consider it cheating and deceptive when a customer cannot purchase a widely available product at MSRP due to a coordinated effort by the AD and Grey. The customer is being cheated by the AD/Grey. Not Rolex. As someone pointed out, Rolex sold the watch to the AD and probably doesn't care what happens to it.

[L_S_SHOE]

To be clear, there are two issues:
1) Why doesn't Rolex terminate more AD contracts when it's obvious what's happening. You could argue that the current situation damages the brand and it is in their long-term best interest to limit re-sale by Grey dealers.
2) Why hasn't someone smart put together a class and sued a Grey dealer. Customers are being deceived.

[Tools]

Flippers buying a bunch of watches from the Dealer for a discount is not the Grey Market. Rolex doesn't really care about flippers, it's the other Dealers who don't like flippers because they want to sell their watches too.

The Grey Market is imported watches that bypass the Authorized Distributor. These watches flood the market and nobody in the Rolex distribution chain sees any income. Rolex does battle this because it takes away from their market-share.

The latest efforts by Rolex to scan retail purchases for valid warranties is one of the tools Rolex is using to curb actual Grey Market imports.

[djgallo]

Originally Posted by L_S_SHOE

I would consider it cheating and deceptive when a customer cannot purchase a widely available product at MSRP due to a coordinated effort by the AD and Grey. The customer is being cheated by the AD/Grey. Not Rolex. As someone pointed out, Rolex sold the watch to the AD and probably doesn't care what happens to it.

If Rolex was the only brand of watch ...then your argument may be realistic. Don’t like it...buy another brand. If enough people feel like you and don’t buy a Rolex then maybe the situation will change.

[L_S_SHOE]

Originally Posted by Tools

Flippers buying a bunch of watches from the Dealer for a discount is not the Grey Market. Rolex doesn't really care about flippers, it's the other Dealers who don't like flippers because they want to sell their watches too.

The Grey Market is imported watches that bypass the Authorized Distributor. These watches flood the market and nobody in the Rolex distribution chain sees any income. Rolex does battle this because it takes away from their market-share.

The latest efforts by Rolex to scan retail purchases for valid warranties is one of the tools Rolex is using to curb actual Grey Market imports.

This is good to know. How do these imported watches bypass an AD? I was operating on the belief that Rolex only sold to ADs, even in other countries.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by L_S_SHOE

This is good to know. How do these imported watches bypass an AD? I was operating on the belief that Rolex only sold to ADs, even in other countries.

Rolex USA is a single market, in the EU and Asia there are dozens of Market Distributors. Competition and business practices are different in these varied markets

Grey Market shops, such as Jomashop and Alan Furman, have buyers overseas who buy wholesale for export, then send them to the US.

Wholesale for export allows the overseas Dealers to avoid retail taxes and clear old inventory. It's the same for car parts, cameras, and a host of other Grey Market products.

[L_S_SHOE]

Originally Posted by Tools

Rolex USA is a single market, in the EU and Asia there are dozens of Market Distributors. Competition and business practices are different in these varied markets



Grey Market shops, such as Jomashop and Alan Furman, have buyers overseas who buy wholesale for export, then send them to the US.



Wholesale for export allows the overseas Dealers to avoid retail taxes and clear old inventory. It's the same for car parts, cameras, and a host of other Grey Market products.

Well, in that case, there is no collusion between the AD and the Grey. I must be railing against flippers. Obviously, there can be no class action suit against a flipper. Appreciate the info.


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[gt0279a]

Originally Posted by Tools

Rolex USA is a single market, in the EU and Asia there are dozens of Market Distributors. Competition and business practices are different in these varied markets



Grey Market shops, such as Jomashop and Alan Furman, have buyers overseas who buy wholesale for export, then send them to the US.



Wholesale for export allows the overseas Dealers to avoid retail taxes and clear old inventory. It's the same for car parts, cameras, and a host of other Grey Market products.

Tons of TS have plenty of non-US watches for sale, mostly from small market Rolex ADs

[nick800]

I am pretty confident I know which grey my local AD is supplying.

[FHFinster]

“Illegal” where do you all come up with this.


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[CashGap]

Vocabulary levels are appalling low.

NOT EVERYTHING YOU DON’T LIKE OR DON’T UNDERSTAND IS BAD!!!

Rolex refuses to either set the MSRP at market clearing price for current production, nor increase production until current MSRP matches the market clearing rate. The rest is noise.

[037]

Originally Posted by superpop

Stick to not being a lawyer.

Not sure why but this made me laugh.

[L_S_SHOE]

So many nice people on this forum...


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[FHFinster]

Originally Posted by L_S_SHOE

So many nice people on this forum...

There are a lot of jerks on this forum, no doubt.

But dude, you came out with “illegal” and later used “collusion” on this topic.

There are a lot of educated (and/or intelligent) people on here, and you may be one of them.

So I think expectations are higher for thread/conversation starters even when all of our conversations are a bit ridiculous and speculative.


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[peterpl]

Not illegal but been happening for years now. Nothing new.

[Rado63]

The gray market for Rolex is hazardous when they sell watches at a discount, not a premium.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by L_S_SHOE

Well, in that case, there is no collusion between the AD and the Grey. I must be railing against flippers. Obviously, there can be no class action suit against a flipper. Appreciate the info.

The problem is that there is money to be made, and money makes some people foam at the mouth.

The secondary market is hot. Every time that a scarce watch is available, there are quite a few who will pay a lot for it..... this continues to drive the secondary market higher.

Is the problem that an Internet seller wants twice the price for it, or is the problem that there are too many "instant gratification" folks willing to pay it?

I would argue that it's the buyers willing to pay-up; that is what sets the market price.

[L_S_SHOE]

Originally Posted by Tools

The problem is that there is money to be made, and money makes some people foam at the mouth.

The secondary market is hot. Every time that a scarce watch is available, there are quite a few who will pay a lot for it..... this continues to drive the secondary market higher.

Is the problem that an Internet seller wants twice the price for it, or is the problem that there are too many "instant gratification" folks willing to pay it?

I would argue that it's the buyers willing to pay-up; that is what sets the market price.

Definitely agree with you there.