5513 gilt dial genuine?

[mh17]

Saw this 5513 dial for sale on eBay. I'm looking for one for my 1963 5513 PCG.
Is this correct n original? Concerned about how the lume looks.
Thanks in advance!

[TimeToGo]

Concerned about the lume?! This is a beater dial, the condition is poor but obviously still fetches a premium because most of the writing is there. If you want a gilt dial in better condition, you will definitely pay 2-3x the BIN on this auction.

[mh17]

actually I dont mind the look of this dial, providing if everything is original, I wouldn't mind paying for this dial. However it still leaves me lacking a matching set of hands...

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by mh17

actually I dont mind the look of this dial, providing if everything is original, I wouldn't mind paying for this dial. However it still leaves me lacking a matching set of hands...

Yes, the dial has character. Good luck!

[Beaumont Miller II]

Dial is not correct for 1963 as the gilt dials from that period say only "SWISS" at the bottom and many have an underline.
This dial may have started its life as an original Rolex dial. At this point best case scenario it has been horribly altered or west case is fake.

[mh17]

i'm relieved that i didnt pull the trigger as the seller hadn't respond to my questions.
There is another one that i chanced upon though, with the underline and "swiss" below. However that piece has heavy spottings all over (which some may refer to as "stardust") selling for $7500

[themaninblack]

Real? Maybe. But I think there is a difference to a dial that has patinated or degraded I'df you like in a watch as the watch has aged and a dial that's just a badly deteriorated dial that doesn't belong in your case.

[Paul]

Whoops. Double post sorry .

[Paul]

A strange thing about the vintage watch community is that so many folk eschew and down-value watches and parts that present as ... ummmm ... vintage !


Over polished cases ....
Rounded off lugs ....
Blotchy dials ....
Service parts ....
Wrong era parts ....


I'd posit that most folk would step right over a watch sporting the dial shown by the OP, and keep on chasing the beauty queen, only ever worn to church on Sundays, almost NIB, kinda watch. Human nature to seek out the best examples of anything I guess - I can really admire a well-preserved watch too so I'm AOK with that.

The dial posted by the OP, married up with matching hands, an aged case, and a brown faded fat font insert, and on old leather, could look vintage great.
Many folk would admire it ... but most wouldn't want to own it. Heavily aged watches like my daily driver traded for pocket money just a few years back ….







Same goes for crusty dials like these ones I'm quietly sitting on ….







When folk started asking say $3000 for a death-bed early 60s gilt dial I was amused ..... but if that has jumped to $7500 perhaps my retirement will be comfortable after all. I don't see $ 7500 in that eBay dial. I just see a very costly completed project watch that the owner may find quite hard to sell.


Oh .... and the term 'stardust' was coined by Don Draper. It's a euphemism for 'a bit crappy'

[mh17]

wow Paul, what a find. Excellent character on the 5513. After all i'm just trying to get my watch as close to its original look as i can as long as it is readable and not too beat up.
actually the $7500 was on the VRF and i would not even consider paying anything close to that.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by mh17

wow Paul, what a find. Excellent character on the 5513. After all i'm just trying to get my watch as close to its original look as I can as long as it is readable and not too beat up.
actually the $7500 was on the VRF and i would not even consider paying anything close to that.

Just now a few rough examples of highly desirable dials are up for grabs. The 5513 gilt underline dial on VRF is difficult to find and they are invariably beaten up.
The VRF seller is cast-iron - Kevin lives down here in sunny NZ actually and has helped me move a couple of projects along.

Same goes for the dial shown in this thread - not easy to find and getting harder each year.

And on eBay just now, vintage fans can quietly watch what happens when the seller lets the market decide the price on a death-bed dial.
This rare 6542 dial closes tomorrow but is still just sitting at $ 455 ...

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Dial is not correct for 1963 as the gilt dials from that period say only "SWISS" at the bottom and many have an underline.
This dial may have started its life as an original Rolex dial. At this point best case scenario it has been horribly altered or west case is fake.

I agree the dial is not correct for 1963 but not quite so about it being altered or a fake.

Here is one such dial:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...age/1221476390

[Beaumont Miller II]

My post on this thread was made after a close examination of the letter "E" in Rolex at the top of the dial. On a correct gilt/gloss Submariner dial from 1964 and after all the the horizontal strokes of the letter "E" have a tremendous amount of serif, where as the dial posted by the OP has virtually none. In addition, the coronet does not look like the classic coronet. Furthermore, the dial is not a Bart dial as the horizontal strokes on the "f" and "t" in the depth rating are not aligned.
Perhaps through the ages the serif on some of the letters has worn off or areas of the dial have been repaired such as the coronet. Other areas of the dial have some classic "tells" of an authentic dial.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

My post on this thread was made after a close examination of the letter "E" in Rolex at the top of the dial. On a correct gilt/gloss Submariner dial from 1964 and after all the the horizontal strokes of the letter "E" have a tremendous amount of serif, where as the dial posted by the OP has virtually none. In addition, the coronet does not look like the classic coronet. Furthermore, the dial is not a Bart dial as the horizontal strokes on the "f" and "t" in the depth rating are not aligned.
Perhaps through the ages the serif on some of the letters has worn off or areas of the dial have been repaired such as the coronet. Other areas of the dial have some classic "tells" of an authentic dial.

Yeap!

I think it is good as well!

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Paul

A strange thing about the vintage watch community is that so many folk eschew and down-value watches and parts that present as ... ummmm ... vintage !


Over polished cases ....
Rounded off lugs ....
Blotchy dials ....
Service parts ....
Wrong era parts ....


I'd posit that most folk would step right over a watch sporting the dial shown by the OP, and keep on chasing the beauty queen, only ever worn to church on Sundays, almost NIB, kinda watch. Human nature to seek out the best examples of anything I guess - I can really admire a well-preserved watch too so I'm AOK with that.

The dial posted by the OP, married up with matching hands, an aged case, and a brown faded fat font insert, and on old leather, could look vintage great.
Many folk would admire it ... but most wouldn't want to own it. Heavily aged watches like my daily driver traded for pocket money just a few years back ….

Same goes for crusty dials like these ones I'm quietly sitting on ….

When folk started asking say $3000 for a death-bed early 60s gilt dial I was amused ..... but if that has jumped to $7500 perhaps my retirement will be comfortable after all. I don't see $ 7500 in that eBay dial. I just see a very costly completed project watch that the owner may find quite hard to sell.


Oh .... and the term 'stardust' was coined by Don Draper. It's a euphemism for 'a bit crappy'

And by the Paul - I am big fan of these type of dials and watches!

I agree with you, not everything has to be perfect...i.e., unpolished, etc.

It only becomes an issue when they are "misrepresented."

[Beaumont Miller II]

Well said ^

[Kingface66]

"Oh .... and the term 'stardust' was coined by Don Draper. It's a euphemism for 'a bit crappy' [/QUOTE]


There was a watch for sale on the forum here that, in its description, is described as such: "...we will call stardust effect."

I'm probably be in the minority here, but attaching an attractive, or glowingly positive adjective to what is, essentially, a damaged dial can be eye-rolling at best, and misleading at worst. When I first started learning about Subs, there were some descriptions, and threads, that led me to believe that "tropical" was this rare, sought-after dial that real collectors desired. After seeing a few, I wasn't sure what it was I was supposed to be admiring. I began to realize that there was nothing truly tropical about them: they were simply water-damaged, sun-damaged, corrosion-damaged, etc. dials.

Now, I promise, I'm not saying that some nice case aging, dial patina, and insert fading can't be absolutely gorgeous (it is!), but the OPs dial here is...a mess. Plain and simple. But, with a "tropical" or "beautifully aged" description, it will no doubt fetch a few grand.

I dunno....it just sometimes seems very "Emperor's New Clothes" to me.

[mh17]

very interesting insights. kinda makes me question my restoration project. I guess my search for a 'correct' replacement has turned into a search for an 'acceptable' replacement (which means unwanted messed up parts due to budget constraints).

[Vincent65]

Dial at top (OP) looks contrived to me. 'Created' vintage. Something looks off.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Paul

Just now a few rough examples of highly desirable dials are up for grabs. The 5513 gilt underline dial on VRF is difficult to find and they are invariably beaten up.

The VRF seller is cast-iron - Kevin lives down here in sunny NZ actually and has helped me move a couple of projects along.



Same goes for the dial shown in this thread - not easy to find and getting harder each year.



And on eBay just now, vintage fans can quietly watch what happens when the seller lets the market decide the price on a death-bed dial.

This rare 6542 dial closes tomorrow but is still just sitting at $ 455 ...

That GMT dial on eBay sold for north of usd$2000.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mh17]

This is the other gilt dial that has attracted me:

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by mh17

This is the other gilt dial that has attracted me:

This is in a different class and brings a hefty price with it..

[greekbum]

Imho nice dials for a personal beater if you like this look. The 1st 2 are damaged beyond repair to stay original. None of those dials will sell a watch for more than the sum of parts to put them together. Most buyers today want the crisp of the crisp or the cheap of the cheap is what i have seen.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Imho nice dials for a personal beater if you like this look. The 1st 2 are damaged beyond repair to stay original. None of those dials will sell a watch for more than the sum of parts to put them together. Most buyers today want the crisp of the crisp or the cheap of the cheap is what i have seen.

Yip. Worse still, there's a real risk that the finished product will value in lower than the cost of the project.

For me, there is a heirachy of desirability when it comes to dial flaws, stardust and spider cracks are way down the list.
That's a personal opinion of course - we are all different and someone will love that dial.

I could work with the faded gilt 5513 dial shown by the OP. And perhaps even the 6542 dial ... but not the stardust dial.
General ageing, consistent fading, perhaps a crusty edge (sounds like a pizza ) I can live with. Stardust just doesn't spin my wheels

[mh17]

way overdue but i owe this thread a photo of the watch with the beat up dial:

[GeoGio Greece]

Originally Posted by mh17

way overdue but i owe this thread a photo of the watch with the beat up dial:

If it works, and the dial has been stabilized as not to deteriorate any further, OK. The hands, give it a good look.

It stands out of the crowd.

[Kingface66]

It's an excellent effort, bringing it back to life like that.
But, for my tastes, the corrosion spots all over the dial are just too distracting and unappealing to me. But, congrats all the same

[mh17]

Originally Posted by GeoGio Greece

If it works, and the dial has been stabilized as not to deteriorate any further, OK. The hands, give it a good look.

It stands out of the crowd.

What should one do to stabilize the dial?
Also, hands are gilt service replacements which are tritium

[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by mh17

What should one do to stabilize the dial?
Also, hands are gilt service replacements which are tritium

Being a SWISS dial there is likely radium in the luminous markers so you can't really stabilise it if that material has been flaking and essentially "eating" at the dial. It's radioactive and you can't stop that. This is a common theory about these dials, whether scientifically proven in any way I'm not sure.

If it's a type of metal corrosion well, "rust never sleeps"!

[droptopman]

Nice work. I like it. The hands look great.
You have successfully resurrected this watch!


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