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Old 27 June 2017, 03:03 PM   #1
silverdollarbill
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So, this is my first post on this forum and I am new to wrist watches. I have a few pocket watches and have bought/traded a few watches in the past but I am really a novice.

This weekend, I took a gamble and paid $1,900 for this watch. My wife is not happy, but I think I did ok.

So, from my research, I think this is early 1950s. However, I haven't been able to identify a specific date.

Also, a friend of a friend who says they know watches, says it looks good, but the arms look funny. I agree and cannot find a model with similar arms.

Another online friend said it is clearly a redial and poor on at that. The hand look funny to me, but to my untrained eye the face looks original and untouched.

I'm also trying to figure out what I should have done if anything to the watch:
- servicing / cleaning
- redial
- should I use authorized dealer or just find a reputable dealer (I'm in a big city)

Curios what your thoughts are. Thanks for looking.

bill

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post to this forum. I recently purchased the watch shown in the attached pictures. I believe it to from the early 1950s. I'm new to collectible watches. Another forum said the watch was authentic but a redial which seems to be bad.

The watch runs but probably has not been serviced in some time.

Questions:
- should I get it redialed. What should that cost me?
- should I get it serviced?
- any idea if the hands are original? They look funny when compared to others.

thx,
bill
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_160852.jpg (146.2 KB, 376 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_160906.jpg (155.5 KB, 380 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_160929.jpg (127.1 KB, 376 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_093748.jpg (189.2 KB, 354 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_160947.jpg (153.6 KB, 359 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_160929.jpg (127.1 KB, 355 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170625_160852.jpg (146.2 KB, 351 views)

Last edited by Tools; 2 July 2017 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 27 June 2017, 08:42 PM   #2
R.W.T.
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There is no photo of the dial.

Definitely had some polishing done to the backside of the lugs.

This is the lower grade version of the automatic mechanism found in these watches with the 2 hardened bushings rather than 2 or 7 jewels. It' functions just fine. The timekeeping part is the same on all of them pretty much. 17 or 18 jewel versions the extra jewel being in the center wheel position on the train bridge.

I'd like to see the dial and hands.

If you don't know the service history I would recommend you service the watch.

The lubrication in the automatic portion is crucial and if it dries out the legs on the rotor axle spring are prone to breaking and it's an expensive part. Also the double coupling spring is the same situation.

Even with a redial in 14k it's not a bad price really.

I can service the watch for you if you like if you don't find someone you like locally. Rolex won't likely even open it.

PM me if you wish.
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Old 2 July 2017, 09:01 AM   #3
Paul
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I wouldn't jump straight to a redial conclusion ...

By that I mean two things ...

a) Current status of the dial -

I'd need to see more pics to determine if your current dial has been refinished in any way. I'm seeing lots of characteristics within the dial text, the coronet (recessed ?), the applied markers etc. that I associate with this era of dress Rolex.

If the dial has been refinished, I'd tag it as early work and well done. The dial certainly has a raw 1950s Rolex look to it. I'm thinking too that this particular configuration was seen ( The OCC text broken over two lines in that configuration, the 3,6,9,12 in digit form with applied gold prism sticks elsewhere and tritium dots.)

Right or wrong, my mind didn't automatically jump to 'redial' when I saw your watch

b) Should you refinish the dial -

Once you determine the status of the dial you have, I'd still think long and hard before I did any changes (including refinishing the dial) except for a simple movement service if needed. Any redial bites into the value of a vintage Rolex but a freshly executed redial sometimes goes beyond that and sees a good chunk of character sucked out as well. It may well be the character that I see within your watch that lured you towards vintage in the first place.

A couple of questions ...

Do you know what reference the watch is - '6084' perhaps ? EDIT: Yes. I see the '6084' stamping on the case-back now. We sometimes see '6084' stamped on the case and '6085' stamped on the case-back for this reference ( good efficient Rolex - using up old stock parts ).

Are any viewers in the know as to when the SWISS MADE text gave way to SWISS (or vice-versa) ?

And as always I'm happy to be corrected on any of my observations - I'm an idiot but bursting over with enthusiasm.

Nice watch - thanks for posting.
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Old 2 July 2017, 10:06 AM   #4
watch-guy.com
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again to add to Pauls comments
1. Dial is refinished
2. case is very polished - see the lugs
3. There appears to be some work on case back
4. I think hands are original
See responses from RWT on 26 June



Julian
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Old 2 July 2017, 11:33 AM   #5
R.W.T.
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I would say the dial has been refinished mainly because of the fonts...and this late in the game...ROLEX was at least I've only seen, on one line. Then OYSTER PERPETUAL. Not ROLEX OYSTER on one line and then PERPETUAL.

The fonts on OCC are odd...

The hands...they used lots of hands. That dial typically would come with either Alpha Hands or "Fish" hands.

They've definitely been re lumed.

The lume in the hands bugs me more than anything.

The watch has some issues...and not to just dog it ... but you have to be aware of what you have. As I said...the case has been polished ALOT...now...it has that rounded effect..that has a worn in appeal. If you tried to correct that now...you'd probably be more the worse. The gold has a nice patina. It looks like a well worn in 50's watch. The crown is toast and it was a super oyster to begin with and they were never great, but that one the core is completely gone. Don't get it wet. I would hesitate to get ANY Super Oyster wet but that one...will leak like bucket full of holes.

If you don't know the service history...it needs service...you know it's funny....
One of my earliest customers came from a forum like this. He lived in NYC. He had a 6084-5 and he had taken it everywhere and NO ONE could make it run right. I was just getting into trying to help people in the public sector so I said...hey let me give it a try. If I can't make it run right you don't have to pay me.

I got the watch and it had not been serviced in decades obviously. Out of ALL of those watchmakers in the city that he took it to...they were just trying to make it run on time by adjusting the regulator? There was NO OIL anywhere in that watch...DRY AS the Gobi Dessert. I cleaned the watch and properly lubricated it and it kept near perfect time.

The 645 is good movement....it's a 630 that is upgraded to shock resistance and has a little different autowind hook up. The rotor axle and spring and the double coupling spring are EXTREMELY vulnerable to breaking with no lubrication. So...if you aren't gonna service it and you plan to keep it. Don't wear it.
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Old 2 July 2017, 01:03 PM   #6
Paul
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The Rolex Oyster Perpetual configuration ....

[QUOTE=R.W.T.;7723697]

...and this late in the game...ROLEX was at least I've only seen, on one line. Then OYSTER PERPETUAL. Not ROLEX OYSTER on one line and then PERPETUAL ...


I'd completely missed that - a very valid point from RWT.

I see another example of this configuration in a file pic of a Rolex 6084 - a dial that looks refinished to me . And I also have a crappy loose dial in my spares with this configuration - and my dial certainly looks refinished ( no text at all beneath the '6' plot is a giveaway on my dial ).

Leans towards a conclusion of a refinish on all three dials - perhaps from a time when close enough was good enough.
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Old 5 July 2017, 07:15 AM   #7
silverdollarbill
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Thanks everyone! I've been traveling so have not had the chance to respond.

@R.W.T.....going to try to find someone local to service it, but will reach out if that does not work.
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Old 15 July 2017, 03:31 PM   #8
silverdollarbill
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Hello Everyone,


The lugs on the opposite side of where the crown is both have holes that go all the way through. Seems unusual to me. I can't imagine something unfinished like that would be let out.

Sorry....for some reason, I can't upload pics. Can only due hyperlink.
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Old 16 July 2017, 03:49 AM   #9
R.W.T.
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That is normal spring bar holes. Very often they have holes that go all the way through on BOTH sides.
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Old 16 July 2017, 05:16 AM   #10
silverdollarbill
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That's good news. Surprised by how unfinished it looks. Thanks for the info!
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Old 20 August 2017, 11:33 AM   #11
silverdollarbill
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Hello Everyone,

I was in SF visiting my brother and decided to have the watch serviced. It was serviced by Juan Arsenian. I found a recommendation for Juan on this site. Juan was great. He's also 90, has over 70 years experience, and is still working.

He did a full service and replaced a spring all for $500. I did not get other quotes, but thought that was a good price.

He said he thinks the dial is original and was not re-dialed. However, he did not seem too concerned about re-dials like collectors are. Put a new band on it and have been wearing it for a week. Keeps perfect time. I love it.

Thanks for all your help!

bill
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Old 24 August 2017, 11:42 AM   #12
silverdollarbill
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Based on Juan saying this is not a redial, I have been doing more research. First off the face on the image Paul provided looks identical to the face I have. Would it be possible for two redials to be so similar? (Sorry if this is a dumb question)

Also, I found a bunch of examples with Rolex Oyster on the same line. Here are a few examples:
http://www.chrono24.com/rolex/vintag...-id6720767.htm

http://www.chrono24.com/rolex/oyster...-id5972670.htm

http://www.chrono24.com/rolex/oyster...-id1526602.htm

Is there a way I can find out for sure if this is a redial or not?
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Old 24 August 2017, 03:15 PM   #13
silverdollarbill
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Never mind....I looked at the dial under a loop and the font spacing on PERPETUAL is all wrong. The A also looks like it used to be an R.

I guess I was being too optimistic.
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