1680 Red mark I help

[Kenrocks]

I'm a newbie to the Rolex world (new or vintage). I've been eyeing on the 1680 red sub over the last month or so.

I saw two of these actual watches during my scouting around today (sorry no pics as I wasn't allowed to take any in the 2 respective stores where I found them), and based on the info I leaned from this link I have attached at the bottom they happen to have the Mark I dial (the stores told me -without showing me - that the series nos for these two are both 2,0xx,xxx; so they both seem to pass the dial-vs-series-number test).

Both watches have good patina with dials that are clean but possibly services (?). Both watches have hands that look very good so possibly serviced (?). Also both have clear crystals in good shape with reasonable signs of wear.

Being concious that I want a 1680 red and therefore may be biased, I was telling myself to be honest and to stay critical about the condition of the two watches I saw today compared to the images of similar watches on chrono24 and Instagram. My own judgement (as a newbie to the vintage rolex world) is that both of these two watches are in more than fine condition.

The one thing that holds me back the most: neither of these watches have papers (one of them is a big used/vintage Rolex seller in Hong Kong so likely I will get a period-correct box if I buy from this shop).

I don't want to rush myself into an acquisition that involves quite an amount of money for a watch (they both go for about 21k). So I come here hoping I could get some help from TRFers who tend to have very good knowledge and are willing to offer good advices.

I have read a number of articles lately but don't think there's enough that would help me identify if these two are good examples vs Franken versions. The only thing I know I could do is to ask them to actually show me the series number between the lugs.

Also I know it's not exact science but there seems to be a lack of guidance in terms of price range vs condition vs paper/no-paper.

I would be really grateful if some of you could shed some light on a few questions and help me make a decision:

1. Should I just walk out because these watches have no paper? Is 21k reasonable price range for a 1680 red sub with no paper these days? Or what would be the negotiation strategies to get price down the price for a watch with no paper?

2. If the dial and hands are services would it mean the watch is a "Franken"?

3. What is the best way to assess if a watch has been polished? and what level of polishing would make a watch over-polished?

4. Is there something I can do to more accurately evaluate whether these two are genuine, period-correct 1680 red sub which don't have their dial replaced to look like a much rarer Mark I?


http://www.watchprosite.com/rolex/ro...49211.4075146/


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[Kenrocks]

Apologies for the duped submission in the vintage forum but I would like to get as many feedbacks on my questions as possible - so I hope you don't mind.

I'm a newbie to the Rolex world (new or vintage). I've been eyeing on the 1680 red sub over the last month or so.

I saw two of these actual watches during my scouting around today (sorry no pics as I wasn't allowed to take any in the 2 respective stores where I found them), and based on the info I leaned from this link I have attached at the bottom they happen to have the Mark I dial (the stores told me -without showing me - that the series nos for these two are both 2,0xx,xxx; so they both seem to pass the dial-vs-series-number test).

Both watches have good patina with dials that are clean but possibly services (?). Both watches have hands that look very good so possibly serviced (?). Also both have clear crystals in good shape with reasonable signs of wear.

Being concious that I want a 1680 red and therefore may be biased, I was telling myself to be honest and to stay critical about the condition of the two watches I saw today compared to the images of similar watches on chrono24 and Instagram. My own judgement (as a newbie to the vintage rolex world) is that both of these two watches are in more than fine condition.

The one thing that holds me back the most: neither of these watches have papers (one of them is a big used/vintage Rolex seller in Hong Kong so likely I will get a period-correct box if I buy from this shop).

I don't want to rush myself into an acquisition that involves quite an amount of money for a watch (they both go for about 21k). So I come here hoping I could get some help from TRFers who tend to have very good knowledge and are willing to offer good advices.

I have read a number of articles lately but don't think there's enough that would help me identify if these two are good examples vs Franken versions. The only thing I know I could do is to ask them to actually show me the series number between the lugs.

Also I know it's not exact science but there seems to be a lack of guidance in terms of price range vs condition vs paper/no-paper.

I would be really grateful if some of you could shed some light on a few questions and help me make a decision:

1. Should I just walk out because these watches have no paper? Is 21k reasonable price range for a 1680 red sub mark I with no paper these days? Or what would be the negotiation strategies to get price down for a watch with no paper?

2. If the dial and hands are serviced would it mean the watch is a "Franken"?

3. What is the best way to assess if a watch has been polished? and what level of polishing would make a watch over-polished?

4. Is there something I can do to more accurately evaluate whether these two are genuine, period-correct 1680 red sub which don't have their dial replaced to look like a much rarer Mark I?


http://www.watchprosite.com/rolex/ro...49211.4075146/


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[ajn3323]

So I just pulled trigger on a 1680 red Mark V. Good luck on your search. I don't think there's much that's "reasonable" out there. Before I try answering your questions I find it odd that you were not allowed to take pictures. They're asking $20K+ for a specific watch (not a BNIB current production where you wouldn't need a photo of a specific watch) and you can't take a picture to help you think about it? I'm not up on the norms of HK but that's a red flag for me.

As for your questions:
1. As I earlier stated, reasonableness (with the most reasonable situations equating to "value") is hard to find in the bubble of vintage sport Rolex right now.

2. Service hands alone do not make a Franken but are indications of that possibility. Service dial? More likely a franken - I'd avoid or expect a deep deep discount.

3. The lions share of examples have been polished at some point. You just have to look at as many examples as you can - the determine what level of "softness" you can live with.

4. As with everything, "buy the seller". Also without pix it really makes it hard for the forum community to assist. Any service history? If done at RSC you get it authenticated, at least a highly reputable shop you can get a sense of authenticity.

Bottom line: for $21K you should ideally be looking at the top examples. Trusted seller, near flawless meters first dial, even patina, sharp lugs/case, original or at least period correct parts throughout and a recent service.

Best of luck with all!


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[roh123]

1. Without knowing the condition it is impossible to say. Early red subs are expensive but for 21k I would expect something in really, really great condition. Condition of the watch is much more important than accessories.

2. Franken would be if they put incorrect parts in the watch. Service parts are just service parts but if the dial for example is changed that would affect the value greatly.

3. Showing us pics to evaluate it. If you don't know now I would not suggest that you try your best to begin with on a 21k deal. No offense. :)

4. Compare with correct untouched examples. Again; being a newbie I would not recommend you doing this on your own if you feel uncertain.

All and all you should not consider these deals if the store wont let you take pics and ask for opinions. If they believe their inventory is good and priced fairly I don't see why they wouldn't let you do that.

Good luck

[natosub]

Agree with everything AJN said. Unless it is culturally taboo in HK, I would not buy from a dealer that wouldn't allow me to take photos. How else are you supposed to evaluate the watch without emotional bias or situational pressure? More importantly, without photos it's impossible for you to make a valid side-by-side comparison between the two.

[RC2]

Hard to comment without pics.


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[lhanddds]

Well the first thing is to not get in a hurry. The accumulation of knowledge takes some time. The simplest method is to post pics here and let some very good people review it. I'm not sure I would trust a store that would not let me photograph the watch or provide pics of their own. You will get some very good advice here. Polishing is impossible to evaluate unless you know the one and only owner. The description "unpolished" is strictly not allowed on the Vintage Rolex Forum, which is another great place for gaining opinions and knowledge. The price you mention is somewhat high but it really depends on how nice the watch is. I find papers unnecessary but some folks value them. There are some good fake papers out there so they generally do not prove authenticity. Also, you should consider buying from a trusted seller. The prices you are quoting could certainly purchase you a correct watch from one of our trusted sellers here on TRF. You can find them in the vintage section. Good luck.

[swish77]

Let me get this straight ... $21,000 for a red Sub 1680? And no papers/boxes, with possible service parts? Can we please stop the madness of the inflated market for this reference!?

I don't need to see photos. That's just too much money. Way too much. Now, if it was an NOS red 1680, complete set, that would be different. But based on your description, I wouldn't even consider it.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by swish77

Let me get this straight ... $21,000 for a red Sub 1680? And no papers/boxes, with possible service parts? Can we please stop the madness of the inflated market for this reference!?

I don't need to see photos. That's just too much money. Way too much. Now, if it was an NOS red 1680, complete set, that would be different. But based on your description, I wouldn't even consider it.

What would you expect to pay for a super mint meters first red sub in a physical store? I doubt this is just that but a perfect meters first red sub would probably fetch that retail. If not more.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

What would you expect to pay for a super mint meters first red sub in a physical store? I doubt this is just that but a perfect meters first red sub would probably fetch that retail. If not more.

I agree. More imo for mk1 in tip top shape.. many many ppl keep hoping this is a bubble. But it's my opinion that it is not a bubble..

You are simply dealing with increasing demand for pieces that have not been produce in the past 20,30,40,50 and 60 years for these "sports models" we speak of.

The market is dry because so many people have taken an interest in vintage and that number grows daily.. many collectors are not "flippers" so what they buy, they keep; which is why amazing examples hardly come to market anymore..

When they do make it to market, they sell for a premium that many think is crazy. But ask your self this, where else are you going to find one and how long will you have to wait? Waiting creates a fear that the interested piece you're after will increase in price even more.

People are fascinated with vintage because of a number of things, patina, character, rarity and simply because vintage is timeless.. it's something that never goes out of style and is awesome. Gets even more awesome as time passes and the rules of depreciation don't apply. I have never lost money on any vintage watch I have ever purchased.

I think eventually people are going to have to face the facts that the days of buying a nice red sub at 10k are long gone.

Prepare for the market to get dryer and dryer..

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I agree. More imo for mk1 in tip top shape.. many many ppl keep hoping this is a bubble. But it's my opinion that it is not a bubble..

You are simply dealing with increasing demand for pieces that have not been produce in the past 20,30,40,50 and 60 years for these "sports models" we speak of.

The market is dry because so many people have taken an interest in vintage and that number grows daily.. many collectors are not "flippers" so what they buy, they keep; which is why amazing examples hardly come to market anymore..

When they do make it to market, they sell for a premium that many think is crazy. But ask your self this, where else are you going to find one and how long will you have to wait? Waiting creates a fear that the interested piece you're after will increase in price even more.

People are fascinated with vintage because of a number of things, patina, character, rarity and simply because vintage is timeless.. it's something that never goes out of style and is awesome. Gets even more awesome as time passes and the rules of depreciation don't apply. I have never lost money on any vintage watch I have ever purchased.

I think eventually people are going to have to face the facts that the days of buying a nice red sub at 10k are long gone.

Prepare for the market to get dryer and dryer..

Prices for average quality and below is imho too high. Here we can talk about a bubble. For great examples I wouldn't expect things to go down any time soon. Even with a shaky financial environment I believe prices will stay strong.

But hey.. Who knows?

As this seller refusese pics I would guess they aren't sitting on top quality.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by roh123

What would you expect to pay for a super mint meters first red sub in a physical store? I doubt this is just that but a perfect meters first red sub would probably fetch that retail. If not more.

I guess I wouldn't buy at all in a physical store. There are too many great dealers out there selling very nice MF red Sub 1680s for a lot less money. (The term "super mint" is subjective, of course.)

I also find there is way too much hype over red 1680s, leading to inflated prices. There are so many on the market! For a reference that's not being made any more, where in the world are they all coming from?

I've owed several of them through the years, including a close to NOS full set I bought several years ago from Andrew Shear. I just don't find the red lettering worth all that extra money. (Just an opinion, of course.)

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

I guess I wouldn't buy at all in a physical store. There are too many great dealers out there selling very nice MF red Sub 1680s for a lot less money. (The term "super mint" is subjective, of course.)

I also find there is way too much hype over red 1680s, leading to inflated prices. There are so many on the market! For a reference that's not being made any more, where in the world are they all coming from?

I've owed several of them through the years, including a close to NOS full set I bought several years ago from Andrew Shear. I just don't find the red lettering worth all that extra money. (Just an opinion, of course.)

There are some on the market, but their condition is questionable.. the Rolex submariner is their #1 model. Always has been and I think always will be. I predict that the red sub will one day surpass a double red SD in value. The double reds have come down in price recently which shocked many.

I feel many of the mediocre pieces are commanding higher prices, is because the mint examples are not readily available.. people want red letters so bad, they will over look a polished case or small dial imperfection just to own one.

Look what's happened to the parts market.. cannot even find a tritium pearl to save your life, and very clean fat MK3 inserts are fetching over 2k when they pop up for sale and they sell fast.. 5513's 70's and early 80's selling at 10k.. its shocking for sure..

Prices will always slightly fluctuate, but I personally don't see a bubble, not even with the mediocre pieces

[roh123]

Originally Posted by swish77

I guess I wouldn't buy at all in a physical store. There are too many great dealers out there selling very nice MF red Sub 1680s for a lot less money. (The term "super mint" is subjective, of course.)

I also find there is way too much hype over red 1680s, leading to inflated prices. There are so many on the market! For a reference that's not being made any more, where in the world are they all coming from?

I've owed several of them through the years, including a close to NOS full set I bought several years ago from Andrew Shear. I just don't find the red lettering worth all that extra money. (Just an opinion, of course.)

I do agree. I would personally hold a mint 5512 or 5513 in higher regard than the red 1680. They were already hyped 5-10 years ago and to be honest they haven't developed very well the last couple of years. Back in the days they were more expensive than gilt subs and almost twice as expensive than an equal 5513. For some reason both red subs, DRSD's and 1655's have developed poorly compared to the vintage Rolex market in general and I do personally don't understand the preference among newcommers for red subs. I'd either spend less for a better matte no-date or more for a nice gilt. Each to their own of course.

[springer]

Originally Posted by swish77

I guess I wouldn't buy at all in a physical store. There are too many great dealers out there selling very nice MF red Sub 1680s for a lot less money. (The term "super mint" is subjective, of course.)

I also find there is way too much hype over red 1680s, leading to inflated prices. There are so many on the market! For a reference that's not being made any more, where in the world are they all coming from?

I've owed several of them through the years, including a close to NOS full set I bought several years ago from Andrew Shear. I just don't find the red lettering worth all that extra money. (Just an opinion, of course.)

Nice "meters first" red Subs are bringing $20,000. Look at GMTs, DRSDs and 6263 Daytonas, they have all increased substantially in price the past several years...and so have the red Subs.

[SubKing]

The main thing that is upsetting for me with the dry market with vintage sport models, is that it's making this hobby hard to have. Sure I can say "great, the pieces I already own are appreciating in value" but that doesn't really matter to me much. I of course don't want them to "depreciate".. But, I am not looking to make a fortune or invest in vintage.. I just love collecting, wearing them, talking about them, making new discoveries etc.. With where the market is heading, it's making it hard to find certain pieces anymore.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

The main thing that is upsetting for me with the dry market with vintage sport models, is that it's making this hobby hard to have. Sure I can say "great, the pieces I already own are appreciating in value" but that doesn't really matter to me much. I of course don't want them to "depreciate".. But, I am not looking to make a fortune or invest in vintage.. I just love collecting, wearing them, talking about them, making new discoveries etc.. With where the market is heading, it's making it hard to find certain pieces anymore.

X2. Prices are ridiculously inflated now. I own several very nice pieces and have owned many others. Takes the fun out of it to a certain degree.

[thomaspp]

tough crowd....

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

tough crowd....

Whenever I see this particular 1680 one phrase comes to mind, "sellers remorse".

Such an exceptional example!

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Whenever I see this particular 1680 one phrase comes to mind, "sellers remorse".

Such an exceptional example!

Lol


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[Kenrocks]

Thanks a lot for your comments I truly appreciate your sharing.

The divided views here got my mind a bit unrested, and with business being slow today I half-intentional swinged by the same area so I went into the same 2 shops I were in yesterday. Noticing the people on duty happened to have changed, I asked the same questions again and expressed my interest to have a closer look and to take pictures and got lucky this time, so I went crazy as you will see below.

So here they are - I hope with the images better assessments can be had and shared:

Watch #1:

What to like to me:

very clean case (might be polished but doesn't feel thin); and very clean dial with all hour makers. Crystal in relatively good condition.

What not to like to me:

The color of the hands a bit off against the color of the hour makers (not too much but easily visible). May not show in the pic but the black color of the bezel (on the left of the inverted-triangle where the pearl is ) has an obvious deep scratch/chip when I looked at the watch in person and it's very clear that this scratch had a paint-over.















Watch #2 (pretty sure it's a Mark II upon a closer look)

What to like to me: clean dial with all hour makers. The dial and bezel look more "tropical". Slightly better patina to me compared to watch #1. The strap seems to be more vintage style.

What not to like to me:

I don't know what you call it but surface of the hour makers (esp 12 o'clock) looks like the surface of the moon face when examined with a loupe. Obvious signs of wear: scratches all round - on the crystal, the case.














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[roh123]

From your pics the first one appears to be freshly cut and the second one is ok but worn. Probably polished once or twive over the years but still in pretty good condition.

Here is the angle you want to get from all lugs in order to tell condition. Pic shamelessly stolen from JeremiahLee.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Kenrocks

Thanks a lot for your comments I truly appreciate your sharing.

The divided views here got my mind a bit unrested, and with business being slow today I half-intentional swinged by the same area so I went into the same 2 shops I were in yesterday. Noticing the people on duty happened to have changed, I asked the same questions again and expressed my interest to have a closer look and to take pictures and got lucky this time, so I went crazy as you will see below.

So here they are - I hope with the images better assessments can be had and shared:

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Not the best pictures you posted.. (I.E. Blurry) details are paramount my friend.

I would tell you to loupe the dials and which ever dial is the most clean, go with that one.

When you say "surface of the moon" for the 12 plot, are you referring to the texture of the tritium? Tritium has a texture to it and is normal. Missing chunks of lume is a different story.

From what I can see, They both look like solid pieces. Its a matter of preference. I can see watch #2 Is on a correct 9315 folded bracelet, but cannot see if watch #1 is on the same, which is correct for that model. That would make a difference between 2k or so because that's what decent condition 9315's are going for today..

Watch #1 has a nice over all look I think. light scratches and or chips on the insert is to be expected from watches this age.. If it's excessive, that's a different story.

It's not a bad thing that the hands patina is a shade off. The hands don't always age to the exact same color as the dial plots. So nothing to be so concerned about. The dial condition is the most important thing with these old watches. But at the end of the day, you have to remember that every single vintage watch, no matter how perfect it looks in pictures, they all have their little quirks and imperfections in real life. With photo shop and filters today, its so hard to determine what a watch actually looks like in real life...

These quirks and imperfections are ultimately what makes each vintage piece unique and adds character.

I have been able to spot pieces in the past that I have sold, several years later because of a small visual quirk that was unique to that piece. I look at these imperfections as the watches own identification code.

The main things you need to check for is originality of parts, dial condition, dial period match with the case S/N and how is the over all condition? Once you answer all of that and if the watches both check out, then it comes down to which piece is more appealing to your eye? It's all personal preference.

As far as price is concerned, it is a bit subjective. There are no set in stone values for these pieces. Only trends. You can look up recent auctions from different auction houses and see what the recent trends are to help give you a better gauge.

You have to remember that there are collectors out there that have most likely paid more, for a worse condition piece.

Box and papers add a $2500 to 3k premium to a watch. It's the watches that have been going up in price, not the box and papers. Sometimes if the dealer adds enough hype, a even larger premium can be added for a so called "complete set" As appealing as full sets are, I don't have to have them because so many sets have been tempered with I feel, that it is such a small number of true complete sets, but no one will ever know unless you personally get the piece from the original owner. I just find it interesting that majority of the complete sets I see, the pieces are in super mint condition which adds a bit of wonder.

the market has always been hot for steel subs, modern or vintage.
If you think you are settling, then hold out for a different piece.
If one of the pieces truly speaks to you, then grab it.

The only thing that will work against you in your hunt is the market might get more dry and you might find yourself a year from now, moving on a piece for the same price but in worse condition.

So buy what you like, the prices are what they are at the moment and nothing we can do about it. Don't buy something in fear of what the future value will be.

Buy it because you simply love it.

[Kenrocks]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Not the best pictures you posted.. (I.E. Blurry) details are paramount my friend.

I would tell you to loupe the dials and which ever dial is the most clean, go with that one.

When you say "surface of the moon" for the 12 plot, are you referring to the texture of the tritium? Tritium has a texture to it and is normal. Missing chunks of lume is a different story.

From what I can see, They both look like solid pieces. Its a matter of preference. I can see watch #2 Is on a correct 9315 folded bracelet, but cannot see if watch #1 is on the same, which is correct for that model. That would make a difference between 2k or so because that's what decent condition 9315's are going for today..

Watch #1 has a nice over all look I think. light scratches and or chips on the insert is to be expected from watches this age.. If it's excessive, that's a different story.

It's not a bad thing that the hands patina is a shade off. The hands don't always age to the exact same color as the dial plots. So nothing to be so concerned about. The dial condition is the most important thing with these old watches. But at the end of the day, you have to remember that every single vintage watch, no matter how perfect it looks in pictures, they all have their little quirks and imperfections.

This is ultimately what makes each vintage piece unique and adds character.

I have been able to spot pieces in the past that I have sold, several years later because of a small visual quirk that was unique to that piece. I look at these imperfections as the watches own S/N..

The main things you need to check for is originality of parts, does the dial period match with the case S/N and how is the over all condition? Once you answer all of that and if the watches both check out, then it comes down to which piece is more appealing to your eye?

As far as price is concerned, it is a bit subjective. There are no set in stone values for these pieces. Only trends. You can look up recent auctions from different auction houses and see what the recent trends are to help give you a better gauge.

You have to remember that there are collectors out there that have most likely paid more, for a worse condition piece.

Box and papers add a $2500 to 3k premium to a watch. It's the watches that have been going up in price, not the box and papers. Sometimes if the dealer adds enough hype, an even larger premium can be added for a so called "complete set" As appealing as full sets are, I don't have to have them because so many sets have been tempered with I feel, that it is such a small number of true complete sets, but no one will ever know unless you personally get the piece from the original owner. I just find it interesting that majority of the complete sets I see, the pieces are in super mint condition which adds a bit of wonder.

the market has always been hot for steel subs, modern or vintage.
If you think you are settling, then hold out for a different piece.
If one of the pieces truly speaks to you, then grab it.

The only thing that will work against you in your hunt is the market might get more dry and you might find yourself a year from now, moving on a piece for the same price but in worse condition.

Thank you SubKing for your comments which gave me some very useful guidance.

Sorry about the quality of the pics especially of watch #1. I did try my best to work with the given ambient lighting situation.

Points you made about the value of box and papers and about the age/patina of the hands vs the plots are particularly educational for me, these two things often hold me back most but maybe not as critical as I thought would be.

On the "surface of the moon" bit: yes I do realize tritium has texture but the texture of the 12 o'clock mark of watch#2 is a bit more "uneven" than the other hour marks. It only becomes obvious under the loupe though. All plots of both watches seem to look complete with naked eyes without missing chunks.

On the bracelet: I did pay attention to how the brackets looked like and assessed their conditions, and sort of felt that watch #2 seemed to have the correct version as I think I read it somewhere - so thank for also confirming.

Still questions I need to answer and a decision I need to make :

- Just walk away now and wait? (This, knowing myself well, I have to say is a bit hard for me to do every time I set out to hunt for my next toy target)

- Or which one to choose from? A piece which seems to be more originality-checked (watch #2)? Or a piece that looks overall more pleasing (watch #1)?

- Or since Mark I, II, III have apparently dried up (as I saw only the two I saw over the last two to three weeks - and I have a feeling that they will not stay in the store windows for too long), should I also lay eye on Mark IV or Mark V which I think I saw up to 10 pieces over the last two weeks so a wider samples with probably better quality to choose from and for a lower price range?

- or expand the search to cover countries near by like Japan/ SG / Taiwan etc? (Of course I will do some homework online first before I book a flight ticket ....)




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[Kenrocks]

Originally Posted by roh123

From your pics the first one appears to be freshly cut and the second one is ok but worn. Probably polished once or twive over the years but still in pretty good condition.

Here is the angle you want to get from all lugs in order to tell condition. Pic shamelessly stolen from JeremiahLee.

Thanks for the advice roh123 really appreciate. Next time I promise I will shoot pictures from this angle for TRF consumption.

So the watch in this pic you stole from your friend JeremiaLee, how would you rate the condition of the watch?




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[roh123]

Originally Posted by Kenrocks

So the watch in this pic you stole from your friend JeremiaLee, how would you rate the condition of the watch?

Untouched with some wear.

[Kenrocks]

Originally Posted by roh123

Untouched with some wear.

I suppose it is a positive thing to say for a vintage watch to be untouched with some wear?



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[roh123]

Originally Posted by Kenrocks

I suppose it is a positive thing to say for a vintage watch to be untouched with some wear?



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Untouched is good. Wear is normal.

[scooba]

Originally Posted by Kenrocks

I'm a newbie to the Rolex world (new or vintage). I've been eyeing on the 1680 red sub over the last month or so.

I saw two of these actual watches during my scouting around today (sorry no pics as I wasn't allowed to take any in the 2 respective stores where I found them), and based on the info I leaned from this link I have attached at the bottom they happen to have the Mark I dial (the stores told me -without showing me - that the series nos for these two are both 2,0xx,xxx; so they both seem to pass the dial-vs-series-number test).

Both watches have good patina with dials that are clean but possibly services (?). Both watches have hands that look very good so possibly serviced (?). Also both have clear crystals in good shape with reasonable signs of wear.

Being concious that I want a 1680 red and therefore may be biased, I was telling myself to be honest and to stay critical about the condition of the two watches I saw today compared to the images of similar watches on chrono24 and Instagram. My own judgement (as a newbie to the vintage rolex world) is that both of these two watches are in more than fine condition.

The one thing that holds me back the most: neither of these watches have papers (one of them is a big used/vintage Rolex seller in Hong Kong so likely I will get a period-correct box if I buy from this shop).

I don't want to rush myself into an acquisition that involves quite an amount of money for a watch (they both go for about 21k). So I come here hoping I could get some help from TRFers who tend to have very good knowledge and are willing to offer good advices.

I have read a number of articles lately but don't think there's enough that would help me identify if these two are good examples vs Franken versions. The only thing I know I could do is to ask them to actually show me the series number between the lugs.

Also I know it's not exact science but there seems to be a lack of guidance in terms of price range vs condition vs paper/no-paper.

I would be really grateful if some of you could shed some light on a few questions and help me make a decision:

1. Should I just walk out because these watches have no paper? Is 21k reasonable price range for a 1680 red sub with no paper these days? Or what would be the negotiation strategies to get price down the price for a watch with no paper?

2. If the dial and hands are services would it mean the watch is a "Franken"?

3. What is the best way to assess if a watch has been polished? and what level of polishing would make a watch over-polished?

4. Is there something I can do to more accurately evaluate whether these two are genuine, period-correct 1680 red sub which don't have their dial replaced to look like a much rarer Mark I?


http://www.watchprosite.com/rolex/ro...49211.4075146/


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Hi,

I think the price is a little on the low side tbh,

Have a search for AndrewShear he has a couple of beautiful 1680single reds at present for sale. Also on instagram kkkevall Jimmy ,he is based in kowloon he has lots of friends who buy and sell ,he would happily advise

Lots of useful info on www.drsd.com i would attach a link but ed who owns the site specifically requests you don't so I haven't , It will explain all the dial variants of the 1680 reds

Good luck in your search,

fwiw ,I have a 1680 mtrs first MK1 single red sub from Andrew bought it in the autumn of 2014 its a full set and paid $22,500 hope this also helps ,And mine isn't for sale its one of my favourite watches ever

[scooba]

This one