Appraisal vs. Papers

[LuxeRolex]

Im about to buy a vintage submariner. Seller, a place in NYC Diamond District, has appraisal papers but no Rolex papers. Is this a no- no?

[Dan S]

It's rare that a vintage watch will have the original papers ... desirable, but rare. The appraisal will be useful as kindling or toilet paper. A seller like that has access to tons of parts, and it's quite likely that the watch has been "restored" but they probably won't blatantly lie to you about authenticity if you ask the right questions. It takes a fair amount of experience and knowledge to be able to tell if all the parts are original/correct/authentic. What are your specific concerns?

[LuxeRolex]

Originally Posted by Dan S

It's rare that a vintage watch will have the original papers ... desirable, but rare. The appraisal will be useful as kindling or toilet paper. A seller like that has access to tons of parts, and it's quite likely that the watch has been "restored" but they probably won't blatantly lie to you about authenticity if you ask the right questions. It takes a fair amount of experience and knowledge to be able to tell if all the parts are original/correct/authentic. What are your specific concerns?

Thanks for answering. My concerns are whether the watch itself is authentic vs fake. They seem to have a good rep online. Ive asked for a serial number and told them that if i do buy it I will take it right down the block to the rolex store and have it looked at. They didnt seem put off by me saying this.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by LuxeRolex

Thanks for answering. My concerns are whether the watch itself is authentic vs fake. They seem to have a good rep online. Ive asked for a serial number and told them that if i do buy it I will take it right down the block to the rolex store and have it looked at. They didnt seem put off by me saying this.

Compared to new watches, the issue of authenticity is more nuanced with vintage watches. For example, if you are talking about what I consider to be a classic vintage Sub from the 60s or 70s, you can have two totally authentic watches, and one is worth 2x as much as the other because of replacement parts. The Rolex store may or may not be very helpful in sorting out these subtleties. In general, they really don't care IMO.

Of course, the word "vintage" means different things to different people as well, some people are even calling Subs from the 90s "vintage" now. So it really depends what you are looking for.

[LuxeRolex]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Compared to new watches, the issue of authenticity is more nuanced with vintage watches. For example, if you are talking about what I consider to be a classic vintage Sub from the 60s or 70s, you can have two totally authentic watches, and one is worth 2x as much as the other because of replacement parts. The Rolex store may or may not be very helpful in sorting out these subtleties. In general, they really don't care IMO.

Of course, the word "vintage" means different things to different people as well, some people are even calling Subs from the 90s "vintage" now. So it really depends what you are looking for.

This one would be a 90s, and yep they are calling it vintage.

[Kingface66]

What happened with pulling the trigger on that watch being sold by DesiRolex? He’s a very well-regarded seller here.
What I don’t understand is, if you have such a fantastic vintage collection (as you mentioned in another post) you clearly know the field. Why would you buy a vintage Sub from a booth dealer in the diamond district who sells, almost entirely, new and recent watches? There’s a massive world of legit vintage dealers and collectors out there where you can safely and securely buy well-vetted vintage pieces.

[sportsfan0704]

Appraisal is meaningless. Watch is either real or not. Most diamond district NYC watches are real. There are plenty of aftermarket dials, bezels, etc - so if you avoid that you should be good. Know what a real watch looks and feels like. Rolex won't be much help.

[LuxeRolex]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

What happened with pulling the trigger on that watch being sold by DesiRolex? He’s a very well-regarded seller here.
What I don’t understand is, if you have such a fantastic vintage collection (as you mentioned in another post) you clearly know the field. Why would you buy a vintage Sub from a booth dealer in the diamond district who sells, almost entirely, new and recent watches? There’s a massive world of legit vintage dealers and collectors out there where you can safely and securely buy well-vetted vintage pieces.

seems like most like bank transfers and bank transfers and deposits etc can trigger tax audits. whenever large amounts are transferred (like 5k and over, esp when you go above 10k), banks have to notify the powers that be and sometimes that three letter tax organization starts audits based on that. Im completely legit and theres nothing shady about me, but I dont want to raise red flags. I have a lot of money tied up in investments and as a rule i dont keep a whole lot in a bank. I do keep a LOT of cash in a secure place at my family home. The world is a crazy place and its always good to have cash. To do a transfer, id have to make a large cash deposit in the bank at one time. Thats a no-no

Im not willing to do bank transfers, only credit card, paypal or venmo.

[77T]

I don’t think many Diamond District ground floor shops are careful enough to get you an authentic, original Sub. They buy low and to max their yield may be tempted to embellish a bit.

The other thing you’d need to check is their true history - buy the seller before even looking at the watch is a well-worn motto with any deal.

Lastly, how will you be protected by the seller if the watch turns up on the Rolex theft report?

On your aversion to bank wires…
As a small level collector I would often transfer $50k then accept $80k and other amounts well above the $10k reporting level. Never an audit. But if I did get audited, it’s like a free certification of my bona fide tax returns.

To me, the risk of the Diamond District in a vintage world isn’t worth the slight chance of IRS looking into your returns.


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[LuxeRolex]

Originally Posted by 77T

I don’t think many Diamond District ground floor shops are careful enough to get you an authentic, original Sub. They buy low and to max their yield may be tempted to embellish a bit.

The other thing you’d need to check is their true history - buy the seller before even looking at the watch is a well-worn motto with any deal.

Lastly, how will you be protected by the seller if the watch turns up on the Rolex theft report?

On your aversion to bank wires…
As a small level collector I would often transfer $50k then accept $80k and other amounts well above the $10k reporting level. Never an audit. But if I did get audited, it’s like a free certification of my bona fide tax returns.

To me, the risk of the Diamond District in a vintage world isn’t worth the slight chance of IRS looking into your returns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I simply want a submariner, new or old.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by LuxeRolex

I simply want a submariner, new or old.

So…you don’t care if it’s from 1962, 1992, or even 2022, as long as it’s a Submariner? Why not just stroll over to Rolex on 5th Ave and buy a new one? You’ll get all the papers, guarantee, and confirmation that it’s the real deal.

[sportsfan0704]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

So…you don’t care if it’s from 1962, 1992, or even 2022, as long as it’s a Submariner? Why not just stroll over to Rolex on 5th Ave and buy a new one? You’ll get all the papers, guarantee, and confirmation that it’s the real deal.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by LuxeRolex

I simply want a submariner, new or old.

Nothing wrong with that.

An appraisal is generally a freebie from the Dealer and not of any value one way or the other.

Original paperwork is somewhat rare on older models so carries weight for those folks who like to collect papers and boxes.

A 90's Sub is far from vintage or rare, so buy based on its condition and at a price that you are willing to pay.

Once you buy don't run around looking for reasons that detract from your enjoyment........... a Sub can be a companion for life.