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ALF61 · 22 June 2018, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devildog

Many European sourced D Bue Deepseas only say 116660 on the card. It’s quite common for RolexSA not to differentiate.

Not just in Europe.

zjd168 · 22 June 2018, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinWatch

UPDATE:
The seller, Paradiso Luxury, answered:
He said that they (Paradiso Luxury) are very sorry and that they have bought the watch as original Flat4. He feels very bad and will contact Rolex himself. After that he will contact me and promised that I will get my money back once they will get the watch and have checked it.
It seems that they have been cheated aswell and I want to believe that Paradiso Luxury did not know that it wasn’t Flat4 after all.
If this is the case, and I will get my money back, I will buy something from Paradiso Luxury just to show my support.
All kind of things might happen, you never know. If the seller was tricked, who am I to blaim them? But: The seller should doublecheck the goods that they are selling... if I would not have been this active with finding out that the watch is truly authentic.... the truth would have been hidden for years...
At this point: I am hopefull and happy. Next week I will find out what truly happens...
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great outcome! Agree this kind of "fake" is hard to spot. Only the database in Rolex can confirm either way, provided they didn't make mistake.

stylinleems · 22 June 2018, 02:11 AM

Great news OP!!

padi56 · 22 June 2018, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinWatch

UPDATE:
The seller, Paradiso Luxury, answered:
He said that they (Paradiso Luxury) are very sorry and that they have bought the watch as original Flat4. He feels very bad and will contact Rolex himself. After that he will contact me and promised that I will get my money back once they will get the watch and have checked it.
It seems that they have been cheated aswell and I want to believe that Paradiso Luxury did not know that it wasn’t Flat4 after all.
If this is the case, and I will get my money back, I will buy something from Paradiso Luxury just to show my support.
All kind of things might happen, you never know. If the seller was tricked, who am I to blaim them? But: The seller should doublecheck the goods that they are selling... if I would not have been this active with finding out that the watch is truly authentic.... the truth would have been hidden for years...
At this point: I am hopefull and happy. Next week I will find out what truly happens...
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well IMHO its doubtful that Paradiso Luxury new anything about the franken LV of a normal 16610 sub.And if the RSC has not made a mistake and its truly a franken LV, I wonder how many more franken 16610LV are in this world today today.

FinWatch · 22 June 2018, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imperio

Great news!

Yeah!

🕺

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FinWatch · 22 June 2018, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stylinleems

Great news OP!!

Yeah, thanks!

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harvey · 22 June 2018, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinWatch

UPDATE:
The seller, Paradiso Luxury, answered:
He said that they (Paradiso Luxury) are very sorry and that they have bought the watch as original Flat4. He feels very bad and will contact Rolex himself. After that he will contact me and promised that I will get my money back once they will get the watch and have checked it.
It seems that they have been cheated aswell and I want to believe that Paradiso Luxury did not know that it wasn’t Flat4 after all.
If this is the case, and I will get my money back, I will buy something from Paradiso Luxury just to show my support.
All kind of things might happen, you never know. If the seller was tricked, who am I to blaim them? But: The seller should doublecheck the goods that they are selling... if I would not have been this active with finding out that the watch is truly authentic.... the truth would have been hidden for years...
At this point: I am hopefull and happy. Next week I will find out what truly happens...
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fantastic news!

Verdi · 22 June 2018, 03:10 AM

I am happy for you OP.
Also, you are being super nice to buy something else from them in return.

101031-28 · 22 June 2018, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinWatch

UPDATE:
The seller, Paradiso Luxury, answered:
He said that they (Paradiso Luxury) are very sorry and that they have bought the watch as original Flat4. He feels very bad and will contact Rolex himself. After that he will contact me and promised that I will get my money back once they will get the watch and have checked it.
It seems that they have been cheated aswell and I want to believe that Paradiso Luxury did not know that it wasn’t Flat4 after all.
If this is the case, and I will get my money back, I will buy something from Paradiso Luxury just to show my support.
All kind of things might happen, you never know. If the seller was tricked, who am I to blaim them? But: The seller should doublecheck the goods that they are selling... if I would not have been this active with finding out that the watch is truly authentic.... the truth would have been hidden for years...
At this point: I am hopefull and happy. Next week I will find out what truly happens...
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great news! Glad to hear, keep us posted OP

101031-28 · 22 June 2018, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

People have got to stop being easily offended.
I think you missed his point. In this case he is Italian, it’s his culture, it’s his personal generalized assesment of certain people based on his life’s experiences.
I don’t think he said ALL Italians.

Thank you, couldn’t have said it better. I was born, raised and have lived there for almost 50 years (of which 25 between States and Italy).

Chiboy · 22 June 2018, 03:39 AM

Wow, just read this whole thread. I initially skipped it because I am not particularly a fan of this watch, even if it's the next 6263.

But once I started reading it, I was pretty intrigued.

Major kudos to OP who kept calm and cool, despite dealing with a pretty significant issue. Glad that it looks like the seller is going to make it right. There's been more than a little stereotyping on this thread which is unfortunate. Hopefully this gets settled with either a full refund from seller, or better yet, RSC realizing that the watch was fine and all parties can be happy and financially whole.

Jizzie001 · 22 June 2018, 03:41 AM

Sorry to hear that

FinWatch · 22 June 2018, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harvey

Fantastic news!

Yeah!!! Looking good!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FinWatch · 22 June 2018, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verdi

I am happy for you OP.
Also, you are being super nice to buy something else from them in return.

Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FinWatch · 22 June 2018, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101031-28

Great news! Glad to hear, keep us posted OP

I will!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

enjoythemusic · 22 June 2018, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

Well IMHO its doubtful that Paradiso Luxury new anything about the franken LV of a normal 16610 sub.And if the RSC has not made a mistake and its truly a franken LV, I wonder how many more franken 16610LV are in this world today today.

I'm also glad the outcome went .well, yeah you are right how many franken LVs are out there?

33JS · 22 June 2018, 06:06 AM

Here's a bad flat 4. I took this picture at a UK dealers. I pointed out that the watch was too young to be a flat 4 and that the insert edges had obviously been worked with a rough file - it looked horrendous. The dealer did not want to know my concerns!!

See how close the numbers are to the bezel insert edge...

SLS · 22 June 2018, 06:31 AM

Good news Fin!

cda555 · 22 June 2018, 07:05 AM

Wow... the lesson is absolutely buy only those flat4s that are a complete set.

OP, I'm glad the seller is going to resolve this. Maybe you can get another flat 4 since you mentioned they sell many. It is certainly a great watch.

sensui · 22 June 2018, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

....And its even possible the RSC has made a mistake they have made mistakes in the past.

Words of wisdom. There is no clear cut way to know how extensive Rolex's records are for the watches they've manufactured dating all the way back due to them generally not disclosing anything regarding their "company secrets"....it's the Rolex way. With the way these watches were sold back then as just 16610 on warranty cards (excluding US)....I'm not sure how close they kept track of separating the lv vs regular 16610....and if they did it's always possible a mistake could happen. I can vouch personally that I sent in a 16710 clearly with LN on the warranty card (showing a black insert) to RSC and the extended RSC warranty shows the model as 16710BLRO since I sent it in with a pepsi insert. It's not impossible somewhere records got flipped and in this case, you may never know.

omitohud · 22 June 2018, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exador

Just stating facts Dude...

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/06/22...80_945362.html

Do you have proofs? Stop being racist. If u don’t have anything valuable to add to the discussion, then don’t.

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daveo5 · 22 June 2018, 08:12 AM

This intrigued me. I claim ignorance about most monikers tacked on to models. What is a flat four? Am I missing something?

omitohud · 22 June 2018, 08:14 AM

Well done.

I hope this experience doesn’t discourage you from buying preowned. We should not let those crooks win and stole our passion. We just have to b vigilant.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

omitohud · 22 June 2018, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveo5

This intrigued me. I claim ignorance about most monikers tacked on to models. What is a flat four? Am I missing something?

Actually flat 4 is not the nickname, “Kermit” is. Black anniversary sub 16610 with green insert is called Kermit. The first year it was offered, the insert was flat 4. After the first year the insert is regular pointy 4.

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TickTockChuck · 22 June 2018, 10:20 AM

Glad to hear this got resolved for you. At least you will get your money back. Sounds like the dealer readily accepted responsibility. I still think the dealer should thoroughly verify authenticity when they aquire the watch. Also, producing counterfeit parts can't be that hard (green anodized aluminum bezel, wide minute hand and maxi dial), especially considering the premium over the black version (not saying that's the case here). Anyways, glad it worked out. Cheers!

kzm40 · 22 June 2018, 10:47 AM

Some years ago there were lots of similar discussions about 4 digit daytonas, with Paul Newman dials being swapped etc, and obviously as time goes on it gets harder to verify originality.

So although the watch is not as it was born, without confirmation from Rolex it would be impossible to tell if its an original LV. Its serial may be to late for it to be a flat 4, but there's no other way it could be verified.

nikesupremedunk · 22 June 2018, 11:28 AM

OP I hope it works out for you in the end. The longer I am in this hobby, the more I want to purchase the watch brand new from an AD and this is one of the reasons.

Dirt · 22 June 2018, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

Well IMHO its doubtful that Paradiso Luxury new anything about the franken LV of a normal 16610 sub.And if the RSC has not made a mistake and its truly a franken LV, I wonder how many more franken 16610LV are in this world today today.

I agree.

Here's another way to look at the watch.
Perhaps the watch could be regarded more accurately as a Franken Sub 16610.
In that sense it's had a few key and rather valuable upgrades that will only go up in value given current trends.
It was after all, only born as a standard 16610.

If I were the OP, I would keep the watch and wear it in good health except for performing a Bezel insert swap back to the standard Black insert.
And put the flat "4" Kermit insert away somewhere special in very, very safe keeping. Comparatively speaking, they only ever made a few of them in the beginning and they aren't going to make any more.
There are less and less of them every day due to natural attrition and good-excellent condition examples of genuine ones will only ever go up in value.

The standard Black insert can easily be replaced at any time in the future.

It's certainly been a learning experience for all.

I suppose it's yet to be revealed if the OP is more upset that his watch is simply not entirely the genuine item.
Otherwise it's for all intents and purposes a Kermit.
Obviously Rolex don't have a problem with the watch as it's presented.
Or did the OP purchase it purely as an investment?

If the OP were to keep on the lookout for a genuine Kermit and finally secure one.
He will effectively have a handful of all the essential spare parts to maintain its originality going forward that virtually no one else in the world will have

Not even Rolex themselves

Dirt · 22 June 2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikesupremedunk

OP I hope it works out for you in the end. The longer I am in this hobby, the more I want to purchase the watch brand new from an AD and this is one of the reasons.

Yes, I agree entirely.

I've had my fingers singed a little over the years.
But the journey has been interesting, and I wouldn't change a thing as I enjoyed all of it at the time including each and every one of the ups and downs.
I've learnt a lot too and had a few amazing experiences along the way.
Some of which would seem absolutely incredible to all but a very few.
But true none the less

Dirt · 22 June 2018, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sensui

Words of wisdom. There is no clear cut way to know how extensive Rolex's records are for the watches they've manufactured dating all the way back due to them generally not disclosing anything regarding their "company secrets"....it's the Rolex way. With the way these watches were sold back then as just 16610 on warranty cards (excluding US)....I'm not sure how close they kept track of separating the lv vs regular 16610....and if they did it's always possible a mistake could happen. I can vouch personally that I sent in a 16710 clearly with LN on the warranty card (showing a black insert) to RSC and the extended RSC warranty shows the model as 16710BLRO since I sent it in with a pepsi insert. It's not impossible somewhere records got flipped and in this case, you may never know.

It all depends upon the traceability of their(Rolex) records.
Obviously the traceability in the OP's case is absolutely conclusive and irrefutable.
The events to date with regard to the OP's watch will almost certainly also be recorded somewhere in their database now.

Another factor is who is doing the tracing if at all. As in your example

22 June 2018, 03:10 AM	#188
Verdi "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2015 Real Name: Mitch Location: UAE Watch: Big Ben Posts: 2,451	I am happy for you OP. Also, you are being super nice to buy something else from them in return. __________________ IG: @watch_idiot_savant

22 June 2018, 03:39 AM	#191
Chiboy "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Chicago Watch: Daytona Posts: 5,385	Wow, just read this whole thread. I initially skipped it because I am not particularly a fan of this watch, even if it's the next 6263. But once I started reading it, I was pretty intrigued. Major kudos to OP who kept calm and cool, despite dealing with a pretty significant issue. Glad that it looks like the seller is going to make it right. There's been more than a little stereotyping on this thread which is unfortunate. Hopefully this gets settled with either a full refund from seller, or better yet, RSC realizing that the watch was fine and all parties can be happy and financially whole. __________________ Datejust w/black Tapestry dial (1985) / Daytona (2016)

22 June 2018, 06:31 AM	#198
SLS "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Real Name: Scott Location: GMT -7 Watch: GMT's & Sub's Posts: 10,399	Good news Fin! __________________ "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of lower price is forgotten." -Benjamin Franklin Member No. 922

22 June 2018, 11:28 AM	#207
nikesupremedunk "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Real Name: Andrew Location: NYC Posts: 1,227	OP I hope it works out for you in the end. The longer I am in this hobby, the more I want to purchase the watch brand new from an AD and this is one of the reasons. __________________ \| 116234 DJ36 \| 116610LN SubC \| 116520 Daytona \| BlackBay 58 Blue \|

22 June 2018, 02:11 AM	#183
stylinleems 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 X2 Pledge Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: N/A Posts: 3,179	Great news OP!!

22 June 2018, 03:41 AM	#192
Jizzie001 Banned Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: United States Posts: 113	Sorry to hear that

22 June 2018, 06:06 AM	#197
33JS "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Real Name: John Location: Scotland Watch: SD 50th Ann Posts: 444	Here's a bad flat 4. I took this picture at a UK dealers. I pointed out that the watch was too young to be a flat 4 and that the insert edges had obviously been worked with a rough file - it looked horrendous. The dealer did not want to know my concerns!! See how close the numbers are to the bezel insert edge...

22 June 2018, 07:05 AM	#199
cda555 "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: USA Watch: GMT IIc and PO Posts: 1,638	Wow... the lesson is absolutely buy only those flat4s that are a complete set. OP, I'm glad the seller is going to resolve this. Maybe you can get another flat 4 since you mentioned they sell many. It is certainly a great watch.

22 June 2018, 08:12 AM	#202
daveo5 "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Las Vegas NV Watch: 14060M COSC Posts: 1,329	This intrigued me. I claim ignorance about most monikers tacked on to models. What is a flat four? Am I missing something?

22 June 2018, 08:14 AM	#203
omitohud "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Real Name: Sam Location: los Angeles Posts: 2,051	Well done. I hope this experience doesn’t discourage you from buying preowned. We should not let those crooks win and stole our passion. We just have to b vigilant. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

22 June 2018, 10:20 AM	#205
TickTockChuck "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Real Name: Chuck Location: Canada Watch: Rolex 116610LV Posts: 2,138	Glad to hear this got resolved for you. At least you will get your money back. Sounds like the dealer readily accepted responsibility. I still think the dealer should thoroughly verify authenticity when they aquire the watch. Also, producing counterfeit parts can't be that hard (green anodized aluminum bezel, wide minute hand and maxi dial), especially considering the premium over the black version (not saying that's the case here). Anyways, glad it worked out. Cheers!

22 June 2018, 10:47 AM	#206
kzm40 "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Posts: 713	Some years ago there were lots of similar discussions about 4 digit daytonas, with Paul Newman dials being swapped etc, and obviously as time goes on it gets harder to verify originality. So although the watch is not as it was born, without confirmation from Rolex it would be impossible to tell if its an original LV. Its serial may be to late for it to be a flat 4, but there's no other way it could be verified.

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