1978 Oyster Submariner 5513/0 - pre-Comex with special engraving

[Hugoo]

Hi!

This watch was my uncle's. He worked for COMEX, in hyperbaric welding facilities. From what I understood he was pretty good at it, and he and his team were breaking records of how low they could go in the ocean.
The botttom of the watch celebrates the record he established in welding at 450m under sea-level in 1983.

From the serial number on the watch, it's from 1978.

Long story short, my uncle died a while back and the watch "resurfaced" recently. It is pretty badly damaged, but we got in touch with Rolex Geneva and they told us it would cost us 1200 CHF to fix it. But we don't even know if we should do it? From what I get original parts might be better on vintage watches?

The same guy that did the estimate at Rolex offered to put the watch on the market, pay the reparations out of his pocket and take 25% of the price for doing so. I honestly don't know if this is a good deal or not, I know nothing about this market.

Anyway, I wanted to share the story because I find it interesting, and it might be a unique piece (never heard anything about a specially engraved Comex). Also would love to have opinions about this, and maybe ways to gather more informations about the watch and its history.

Thank you if you took the time to read this :)

[Gina Marie]

don't do a go$damn thing with that and Rolex. Send to LA Watch Works and have them give it a service and see what needs replacing. DO NOT POLISH OR ALTER in any way. Well done my friend.

Are you planning on keeping or selling?

B

[Dan S]

Much of what I see is quite a bit newer than 1978. It's a later dial (looks like gold surrounds on the lume plots) and bezel insert for sure. Are you sure about the serial, can you share the first few digits? As you mentioned, the back of the watch says 1983, so maybe that's when the watch was purchased. Or it could be a 1978 watch with a later "service" dial and bezel. Also, what is damaged besides the crystal? It doesn't look bad to me. This forum can help you gather more information, which can help you make a decision about how to proceed. More photos would be good, starting with the numbers between the lug and better photos of the dial and hands.

[harry in montreal]

It’s a very valuable Watch. Don’t repair it in any way. Don’t let some scammer take 25% of the value of a watch that sells itself. You don’t need an agent when you have a premier piece like that.

[koryong]

Congrats !

If the watch still runs accurately, just get the crystal polished or replaced, and wear it as is.

Not much is more satisfying that wearing a vintage watch that has such provenance.

Could you uncle have bought & worn the watch for a few years, and then only got it engraved later in 1983 ? Probably also got it overhauled at some point after that, hence the newer dial.

[Styles Bitchley]

Certainly looks like a replacement dial if the dates are correct. Lott’s of scratching on the crystal and bracelet too. But that’s to be expected with a real working man’s watch. The story is amazing and sets it apart from the average watch on the market. Get as much information as you can and don’t let anyone work on it until you’re clear about what you have!


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[Jfullm42]

Shame he’s already banned. Would love to have seen how this would have played out.

[Dan S]

Wow, what happened here? I hope it wasn't something I said.

[SVH]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Wow, what happened here? I hope it wasn't something I said.

glorious. great eye for detail.

[037]

Originally Posted by Jfullm42

Shame he’s already banned. Would love to have seen how this would have played out.

Agreed. Curious what got him gone so soon. Multiple users, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Dan S

Wow, what happened here? I hope it wasn't something I said.

Doubt it. There's now a "Hugooo" browsing the thread.

[omitohud]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Much of what I see is quite a bit newer than 1978. It's a later dial (looks like gold surrounds on the lume plots) and bezel insert for sure. Are you sure about the serial, can you share the first few digits? As you mentioned, the back of the watch says 1983, so maybe that's when the watch was purchased. Or it could be a 1978 watch with a later "service" dial and bezel. Also, what is damaged besides the crystal? It doesn't look bad to me. This forum can help you gather more information, which can help you make a decision about how to proceed. More photos would be good, starting with the numbers between the lug and better photos of the dial and hands.

I agree. The dial n the insert r consistent with early 80’s 5513, so it was probably bought around that time imo. The scratched plexi crystal is also consistent with transitional sub of that year. It would b interesting to see the serial between the lugs.

Never seen a comex engraving like that. If it has provenance, this could b a tremendous find worth quite a bit of money.

To OP, could u show the other side of the watch? Does it have a hole on the 9 o’clock side?


I blame it on autoconnect.

[omitohud]

Originally Posted by Jfullm42

Shame he’s already banned. Would love to have seen how this would have played out.

That was fast? Anyone know why? We need some transparency here.


I blame it on autoconnect.

[Hugooo]

Good evening all,

Wow, what happened here? I hope it wasn't something I said.

Got banned because I said in my profile I was in France (which is where I spend most of my time) but I'm in Montreal, Canada right now. Did not expect that one but ok. Hope this new account is not a problem.



I'm gonna try to answer you all in order :

don't do a go$damn thing with that and Rolex. Send to LA Watch Works and have them give it a service and see what needs replacing. DO NOT POLISH OR ALTER in any way. Well done my friend.

Are you planning on keeping or selling?

Thanks for the advice. Nothing has been done to it except the Rolex estimate for repairs.
Right now we're looking to sell, but the more I look into it the more interested I get. I've always loved watches, but I don't really see myself walking around with 10k+ USD value at my wrist... but that can change :)
Btw what would the price be approximately?

Much of what I see is quite a bit newer than 1978. It's a later dial (looks like gold surrounds on the lume plots) and bezel insert for sure. Are you sure about the serial, can you share the first few digits? As you mentioned, the back of the watch says 1983, so maybe that's when the watch was purchased. Or it could be a 1978 watch with a later "service" dial and bezel. Also, what is damaged besides the crystal? It doesn't look bad to me. This forum can help you gather more information, which can help you make a decision about how to proceed. More photos would be good, starting with the numbers between the lug and better photos of the dial and hands.

All of this is very possible, I have absolutely no idea what happened to the watch (in terms of repairs) before 2017.
Serial number is 523XXXX

The damage is the crystal (scratched) and the watch does not really worked. When we got it it did not worked at all, and after the estimate at Rolex Geneva it started to work again, but they did not change any piece (just cleaned it inside and out).
But the crown is stuck, it barely moves and it's nearly impossible to change the hour shown on the watch for now.
Maybe the crown was what blocked the watch (I have a tissot that stop time when I click the crown out)
English is not my native language so sorry if it's not super clear.

I added a few pics, but the watch stayed in France with my parents so I will have to ask them. What should they take specifically?

It’s a very valuable Watch. Don’t repair it in any way. Don’t let some scammer take 25% of the value of a watch that sells itself. You don’t need an agent when you have a premier piece like that.

Thanks for the advice. It sounded scammy to me too.

If the watch still runs accurately, just get the crystal polished or replaced, and wear it as is.

Not much is more satisfying that wearing a vintage watch that has such provenance.

Could you uncle have bought & worn the watch for a few years, and then only got it engraved later in 1983 ? Probably also got it overhauled at some point after that, hence the newer dial.

As said above, the watch have some problems that need to be fixed outside of just the crystal.

And I never considered he could have this engraved himself but it's not impossible. Did they use to give watches with blank case?
Also from what my mom told me, he got it like this from Comex. I'll see if I can get more info contacting Comex but I doubt it.
My parents might still have a contact of one of the guys he was working with so we're going to try that too.

Certainly looks like a replacement dial if the dates are correct. Lott’s of scratching on the crystal and bracelet too. But that’s to be expected with a real working man’s watch. The story is amazing and sets it apart from the average watch on the market. Get as much information as you can and don’t let anyone work on it until you’re clear about what you have!

Do you think the original dial had the Comex written on it? Or did he just replaced it with an identical? How can you tell it's been replaced?
I do like the story too, and the fact that you can tell the watch "had a life".
Thank you for your advice :)


Additional question:
Is there some website or experts that could have more information regarding the story behind the watch? I looked at a few webpages already that had a ton of information about the relations between Rolex and Comex, but it's more centered on the Rolexes with the Comex logo on the dial.

Thank you guys!

[Hugooo]

I agree. The dial n the insert r consistent with early 80’s 5513, so it was probably bought around that time imo. The scratched plexi crystal is also consistent with transitional sub of that year. It would b interesting to see the serial between the lugs.

Never seen a comex engraving like that. If it has provenance, this could b a tremendous find worth quite a bit of money.

To OP, could u show the other side of the watch? Does it have a hole on the 9 o’clock side?

It has the helium escape valve yes, you can see it on one of the picture in my last reply.

[037]

Originally Posted by Hugooo

It has the helium escape valve yes, you can see it on one of the picture in my last reply.

That makes it a 5514, not a 5513. You'll need to research the 5514 model to determine value. Technically we aren't supposed to offer valuations here per the rules. If you're in any way trying to sell it here then you need to follow those rules as well and purchase the appropriate membership.

Good luck / Bonne chance

[uncleluck]

I’m interested to see how this pans out.

If I were you OP I’d get together some provenance from his working life. People are going to be sus otherwise I’m sure.

The Comex link could mean its worth a lot more than a normal sub but at the moment all you’ve got is an old sub with an engraved caseback and a story (and don’t take offence to that but there’s so many people scamming with old Rolex)

[Hugooo]

Originally Posted by 037

That makes it a 5514, not a 5513. You'll need to research the 5514 model to determine value. Technically we aren't supposed to offer valuations here per the rules. If you're in any way trying to sell it here then you need to follow those rules as well and purchase the appropriate membership.

Good luck / Bonne chance

From what I gather, the 5513 with Helium valves are specific to Comex (Second post on the comex sticky thread by Haywood Milton) but I may be wrong?
I say that because the paper we got from the estimate at Rolex says it's a 5513/0, and I believe those are nicknamed "pre-Comex" right?

And sorry I did nnot knew the rules for the valuations, where can I read those rules? Because nothing about selling was specified in the rules I found.

Merci de tes conseils :)

Originally Posted by uncleluck

I’m interested to see how this pans out.

If I were you OP I’d get together some provenance from his working life. People are going to be sus otherwise I’m sure.

The Comex link could mean its worth a lot more than a normal sub but at the moment all you’ve got is an old sub with an engraved caseback and a story (and don’t take offence to that but there’s so many people scamming with old Rolex)

When Rolex examined and they did not say a word, it's their rules to check that it's not a fake and that it only has original or officialy replaced parts no?
But I agree with you, the proof that it's legit is pretty thin.

[uncleluck]

Originally Posted by Hugooo

From what I gather, the 5513 with Helium valves are specific to Comex (Second post on the comex sticky thread by Haywood Milton) but I may be wrong?
I say that because the paper we got from the estimate at Rolex says it's a 5513/0, and I believe those are nicknamed "pre-Comex" right?

And sorry I did nnot knew the rules for the valuations, where can I read those rules? Because nothing about selling was specified in the rules I found.

Merci de tes conseils :)



When Rolex examined and they did not say a word, it's their rules to check that it's not a fake and that it only has original or officialy replaced parts no?
But I agree with you, the proof that it's legit is pretty thin.

I assumed you’d used someone other than Rolex themselves. Only because you said they would pay for it and take 25%. That doesn’t sound like anything rolex would ever get involved with. Sounds more like a man with dollar signs in his eyes fronting a store... oh I’ll pay for that if we can have this deal.

You could have a very rare Watch.

If it were myself I’d get some provenance together and sell it as it stands. You won’t get back the money you spend now on a service and to be honest a genuine collector would probably want it as it is and do the bare minimum to keep some of its charm and originality. That would mean sending it to their watchmaker of choice.

If it’s your uncle you should easily be able to get provenance together Id have thought.

[Styles Bitchley]

I’m certainly no expert, but I’m wondering if selling this at auction would be the best route to find out what it’s actually worth. As most have said, you’d need to find some clear documentation first. If you have that, it would be a game changer.

I’m also very surprised by the proposal you say came from the Gentleman at Rolex Genève. I’ve been there a few times for service and it’s not the sort of place where I can imagine such a proposition. I actually expect he could lose his job for such a suggestion.


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[athom]

A comex watch without a comex dial is for me pointless...

[Mike Wood]

A 5.23m serial number would be consistent with a Rolex-Comex Submariner ref. 5514, although the case back engravings are not something I've yet come across...

Dial hands and bezel are later service replacements.

MW

[STEELINOX]

To me it looks like an imposter ~

[037]

If Rolex UK or SA have had their hands on it, paperwork would be a nice addition to this thread.

[shaunylw]

Oh man, gets banned, opens new account LOL. We might see the first single-user double ban in the history of a single thread. I'm intrigued and sad, because this watch is really cool and we probably wont get to hear much more about it.

[nsxnext]

Those CGs look too perfect considering how beat up the rest of the watch is.

[Bxtek]

I don't have much to add here as far as technical advice since I'm nowhere near an expert. I just want to say that you have a beautiful watch and I love the story behind it with your Uncle! Thanks for sharing with us. I will definitely be following your thread here.

The only thing I would say is to keep it original as possible. If you do replace parts, I would definitely ask to keep the old ones. As they say.....it can only be original ONCE!

[Hugooo]

Originally Posted by uncleluck

I assumed you’d used someone other than Rolex themselves. Only because you said they would pay for it and take 25%. That doesn’t sound like anything rolex would ever get involved with. Sounds more like a man with dollar signs in his eyes fronting a store... oh I’ll pay for that if we can have this deal.

You could have a very rare Watch.

If it were myself I’d get some provenance together and sell it as it stands. You won’t get back the money you spend now on a service and to be honest a genuine collector would probably want it as it is and do the bare minimum to keep some of its charm and originality. That would mean sending it to their watchmaker of choice.

If it’s your uncle you should easily be able to get provenance together Id have thought.

The full story is something like this : someone in my family works at Patek and knows a few people at Rolex. She contacted one and he did the procedure with rolex, and his offer (from what I understand), is him doing it under his name (and not Rolex). But I agree it's a bit weird.

I'm currently working on getting more documentations and provenance for the watch, but my uncle died a few years back, and he was pretty distant from the rest of the family at the time, so it's not the easiest.

I will keep this thread updated with the more info I find.

Thank you for your advice!

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

I’m certainly no expert, but I’m wondering if selling this at auction would be the best route to find out what it’s actually worth. As most have said, you’d need to find some clear documentation first. If you have that, it would be a game changer.

I’m also very surprised by the proposal you say came from the Gentleman at Rolex Genève. I’ve been there a few times for service and it’s not the sort of place where I can imagine such a proposition. I actually expect he could lose his job for such a suggestion.

For Rolex Geneve, see what I wrote above.
For the Auction's house, I honestly don't know. It's risky in my mind and I agree it's not necessarily the best route. Although that may be where we touch the more people that could have interest in this.

Originally Posted by Mike Wood

A 5.23m serial number would be consistent with a Rolex-Comex Submariner ref. 5514, although the case back engravings are not something I've yet come across...

Dial hands and bezel are later service replacements.

I did not manage to find a direcrtoy between the serial numbers and the model, all I find is the year of production (supposedly 1978) when I look for the serial number. How do you know? by experience?

And again, I'm saying it's a 5513 because that's what the paper from Rolex is saying. I'm putting it attached to this post.

Very interesting for the dial hands and bezel, how can you tell? I'm very curious about this.

Thank you for your time and your expertise!

Originally Posted by 037

If Rolex UK or SA have had their hands on it, paperwork would be a nice addition to this thread.

Attached. Rolex SA (I guess this is Geneva from a Google Search) had their hands on it.

Originally Posted by shaunylw

Oh man, gets banned, opens new account LOL. We might see the first single-user double ban in the history of a single thread. I'm intrigued and sad, because this watch is really cool and we probably wont get to hear much more about it.

I'll try to keep this thread updated the more info I find.
And yeah the ban thing is pretty weird.

Originally Posted by nsxnext

Those CGs look too perfect considering how beat up the rest of the watch is.

I don't know what CG is ?

Originally Posted by Bxtek

I don't have much to add here as far as technical advice since I'm nowhere near an expert. I just want to say that you have a beautiful watch and I love the story behind it with your Uncle! Thanks for sharing with us. I will definitely be following your thread here.

The only thing I would say is to keep it original as possible. If you do replace parts, I would definitely ask to keep the old ones. As they say.....it can only be original ONCE!

Thanks a lot, it's my pleasure to share the story.
Thank you also for your advice.

[Dan S]

If you could remove the bracelet and show a photo of what is between the 12 o'clock lugs, it would help address the 5513/5514 issue.

CG=crown guards.

For me, the hands are hard to tell because the photos don't show them very well, but since the dial and bezel insert have been changed, it's highly probable that the hands were changed at the same time. And I wouldn't be surprised if some members have sufficient expertise that they can tell the hands are replacements, even from those photos. The dial and bezel insert are a completely different style than those that were used in 1978. The dial has white gold surrounds around the lume plots; this type of dial started in the 1980s. In 1978, the lume was painted onto the dial without metal borders. It's quite obvious if you just use google and look at 5513 maxi-dial examples. The bezel insert differences are more subtle, but very obvious to people who have looked at thousands of them. It has to do with the font, the thickness of the lines, etc. You can educate yourself about this at http://www.5513mattedial.com

[Hugooo]

Originally Posted by Dan S

If you could remove the bracelet and show a photo of what is between the 12 o'clock lugs, it would help address the 5513/5514 issue.

CG=crown guards.

For me, the hands are hard to tell because the photos don't show them very well, but since the dial and bezel insert have been changed, it's highly probable that the hands were changed at the same time. And I wouldn't be surprised if some members have sufficient expertise that they can tell the hands are replacements, even from those photos. The dial and bezel insert are a completely different style than those that were used in 1978. The dial has white gold surrounds around the lume plots; this type of dial started in the 1980s. In 1978, the lume was painted onto the dial without metal borders. It's quite obvious if you just use google and look at 5513 maxi-dial examples. The bezel insert differences are more subtle, but very obvious to people who have looked at thousands of them. It has to do with the font, the thickness of the lines, etc. You can educate yourself about this at ##

I've asked my parents for these pictures (they have the watch with them) and I'm waiting for them. I'll post them when I get them!

And thanks a lot for all the details, this is very interesting!
Can't believe there is a website just for this :O

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Dan S

If you could remove the bracelet and show a photo of what is between the 12 o'clock lugs, it would help address the 5513/5514 issue.

CG=crown guards.

For me, the hands are hard to tell because the photos don't show them very well, but since the dial and bezel insert have been changed, it's highly probable that the hands were changed at the same time. And I wouldn't be surprised if some members have sufficient expertise that they can tell the hands are replacements, even from those photos. The dial and bezel insert are a completely different style than those that were used in 1978. The dial has white gold surrounds around the lume plots; this type of dial started in the 1980s. In 1978, the lume was painted onto the dial without metal borders. It's quite obvious if you just use google and look at 5513 maxi-dial examples. The bezel insert differences are more subtle, but very obvious to people who have looked at thousands of them. It has to do with the font, the thickness of the lines, etc. You can educate yourself about this at http://www.5513mattedial.com

Agree with Dan here.

Think you will need to remove the bracelet (very easy to do) and see what the actual model number is.

For all we know, the Rolex person was too lazy and just looked at the watch at a surface level and assume its a 5513. However, saying that, I have never gotten a quote from Rolex without them removing the bracelet as they normally state model number and serial in the quotation letter.

Good luck with the journey. My only other comment is the marks on the crystal seem somewhat unnatural (they are large marks) not typical of regular bumps and bruises that I have seen even from watches earlier than this.