Rolex 1675 red hand?

[ar.parask13]

Hello all,

I have the chance to trade this:

And add some cash
In order to get a 5.5 mil, mark 4 dial, full red hand, Rolex 1675.



I know there is some controversy regarding these hands but I would appreciate your opinions regarding the watch in general.
What are the prices these are going for usually?

Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[springer]

In my opinion, this watch is way too late for an all red 24-hour hand. Additionally, there are many hands being painted to look like the original all-red hands. The red paint on the genuine 24-hour hands should appear to be raised and not flat like found on many of the repainted hands.

Last week, someone had me look at a GMT on ebay for them with the all-red 24-hour hand and it was clearly repainted. Of course the seller claimed it was all original. The top paint layer was very thin and so flat you could land a plane on it.

As far as value, that's between the buyer and seller for the genuine versions. It's whatever you are comfortable with.

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by springer

In my opinion, this watch is way too late for an all red 24-hour hand. Additionally, there are many hands being painted to look like the original all-red hands. The red paint on the genuine 24-hour hands should appear to be raised and not flat like found on many of the repainted hands.

Last week, someone had me look at a GMT on ebay for them with the all-red 24-hour hand and it was clearly repainted. Of course the seller claimed it was all original. The top paint layer was very thin and so flat you could land a plane on it.

As far as value, that's between the buyer and seller for the genuine versions. It's whatever you are comfortable with.

Hello,

I have done some research and apparently it is accepted that serials from 5 to 6 mil with mark 4 maxi dialscouldhave been produced with the all red hand.
Apart from the hand what do you think about the condition of the case, dial, lume etc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[harry in montreal]

Is the insert on the allred legit? It has those top heavy 2s. Not a great start

[springer]

Originally Posted by ar.parask13

Hello,

I have done some research and apparently it is accepted that serials from 5 to 6 mil with mark 4 maxi dialscouldhave been produced with the all red hand.
Apart from the hand what do you think about the condition of the case, dial, lume etc?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, you "read it somewhere on the internet" and that makes it correct??? Based on your assertion, then all of the 1675s could have come with the all red hand. Not hardly.

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by springer

So, you "read it somewhere on the internet" and that makes it correct??? Based on your assertion, then all of the 1675s could have come with the all red hand. Not hardly.

Thanks for your valuable input... it offers absolutely no help whatsoever.
Same goes for every other 1675 that is accepted as having an all red hand or any other 6263 with a Paul Newman dial or...
You get my point.
Again thank you. Invaluable...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tom1675]

Originally Posted by springer

So, you "read it somewhere on the internet" and that makes it correct??? Based on your assertion, then all of the 1675s could have come with the all red hand. Not hardly.

Agreed. I am pretty sure we all understand the riddles the internet can throw out there and the confirmation bias the internet provides for us to find the info we want to hear. Remember, the reason you are putting your query on this site is for the opinion of experts who will distill the noise.

Take what Springer is saying as creed, for when it comes to GMTs Springer is Yoda.

As for my opinion on your trade +cash, the second is an upgrade, even if the GMT hand is painted. The patina is consistent and I am partial to the flat indexes - no white gold...

[whofeelitknowsit]

Originally Posted by ar.parask13

Thanks for your valuable input... it offers absolutely no help whatsoever.
Same goes for every other 1675 that is accepted as having an all red hand or any other 6263 with a Paul Newman dial or...
You get my point.
Again thank you. Invaluable...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He actually gave you helpful advice in the first response to your question, but it seems like you won't be happy unless you get the answer you want.

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by whofeelitknowsit

He actually gave you helpful advice in the first response to your question, but it seems like you won't be happy unless you get the answer you want.

I don't think it is actually as helpful as you might consider it.
As I mentioned above I know that the red hand is a contreversial thing as is pretty much anything with vintage Rolex such as underline dials or double Swiss or whatever.
I
The fact that the serial number and dial coincide with the fact that these could have been equipped with an all red hand is in place. Whether this was equipped with this hand from the beginning of its life or not will be impossible to know. As will be with any other full red hand unless there is a picture of it on the authorised dealer's shop at the time.
The internet has a wealth of information and it is important to filter through it.
So as I said above I have actually bothered to understand the story behind the hand.
So it is perhaps the way he wrote the comment that I found a bit offensive.
So, to sum up I don't actually think that he offered any help whatsoever.
There were other questions regarding the condition of the case, dial etc. Unlike other members who actually contributed towards that front, he offered nothing further than a slightly arrogant comment.

PS: if I misunderstood the tone I am terribly sorry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brandonwahl]

Dealing in vintage Rolex is super difficult and a very interesting place to find yourself. Speaking from an advice standpoint, Springer is incredibly knowledgeable about GMTs, has decades of experience and offers it for free.

Check out his referrals here:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=746407&page=7

Speaking from a tone standpoint, people communicate differently.

[1675-David]

hi Aris, the case looks OK, not great, not terrible, it's been polished a few times and the 5 o'clock lug looks quite soft but in general OK, the dial and hands look nice (well except for the 24 hr hand being all red of course) can't say much about the bracelet. A decent 1675 with an misplaced all red hand. The red hand would cause me to tread carefully and without a hands on inspection and a look inside I wouldn't buy this watch, but thats just me. I believe the red hand is too late for this piece and mis-matched components always raise question marks... especially about the seller....

[PVR]

Sorry to step on anyone toes here, but if you believe the red hands are original (I DO) then anything from 5-6m with a MKIV-MKVI dial is acceptable and considered correct by the vast majority of collectors. Of course they are also found on Radial Dials, but to state that the red hand is too late on a 5.5m is inaccurate. I have seen them all the way up to 5.9m and considered them to be correct.

Thats my take on it and my opinion, you are entitled to your opinion..

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by brandonwahl

Dealing in vintage Rolex is super difficult and a very interesting place to find yourself. Speaking from an advice standpoint, Springer is incredibly knowledgeable about GMTs, has decades of experience and offers it for free.

Check out his referrals here:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=746407&page=7

Speaking from a tone standpoint, people communicate differently.

I am not in anyway implying that Springer is not a great seller and a true gentleman.
I am sure he is and I would love to read his opinion on all the other parts of the watch as well.
This is going to be a private deal but the watch was initially sourced from Icone (Antonio Torres) in Spain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[springer]

Originally Posted by Tom1675

Agreed. I am pretty sure we all understand the riddles the internet can throw out there and the confirmation bias the internet provides for us to find the info we want to hear. Remember, the reason you are putting your query on this site is for the opinion of experts who will distill the noise.

Take what Springer is saying as creed, for when it comes to GMTs Springer is Yoda.

As for my opinion on your trade +cash, the second is an upgrade, even if the GMT hand is painted. The patina is consistent and I am partial to the flat indexes - no white gold...

I offer my opinion and it really isn't about one agreeing or not. What happens many times is that someone posts opinions based on other info from the internet and somehow that opinion becomes gospel. I offer my opinion to counter erroneous information and the reader can decide for themselves. In this case, we have someone basically stating that all GMTs could have had the all-red 24-hour hand. Since he claims they could have been on 1675s, up to 6 million, this basically includes all GMT 1675s. Anyone that knows these watches knows that the all-red hand was most prevalent during the late 1960s to very early 1970s. While, as with all things Rolex, there could be anomalies and exceptions, claiming the all-red 24-hand was available until the end is not correct. Additionally, I would not consider Mark IV dials available until the end of production, where Mark V and VI dials are the most prevalent. Having a late production Mark IV dial on a 1675 is definitely not a common occurrence.

As far as ar.parask13 is concerned, it makes no difference to me what he does with his watch. If he wants to place an all-red hand on it, gold bezel inserts or aftermarket parts, that is his watch and his choice. I've worn a couple of my watches with non-original parts and it is my prerogative.

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by springer

I offer my opinion and it really isn't about one agreeing or not. What happens many times is that someone posts opinions based on other info from the internet and somehow that opinion becomes gospel. I offer my opinion to counter erroneous information and the reader can decide for themselves. In this case, we have someone basically stating that all GMTs could have had the all-red 24-hour hand. Since he claims they could have been on 1675s, up to 6 million, this basically includes all GMT 1675s. Anyone that knows these watches knows that the all-red hand was most prevalent during the late 1960s to very early 1970s. While, as with all things Rolex, there could be anomalies and exceptions, claiming the all-red 24-hand was available until the end is not correct. Additionally, I would not consider Mark IV dials available until the end of production, where Mark V and VI dials are the most prevalent. Having a late production Mark IV dial on a 1675 is definitely not a common occurrence.

As far as ar.parask13 is concerned, it makes no difference to me what he does with his watch. If he wants to place an all-red hand on it, gold bezel inserts or aftermarket parts, that is his watch and his choice. I've worn a couple of my watches with non-original parts and it is my prerogative.

First of all I am sorry if I jumped the gun when judging your response.
Apart from the all red hand I have the following questions.
Is a mark 4 maxi dial wrong for a 5.5 mil watch? All the information I have found so far seems to say that this is correct.

How would you judge the condition of the case and the dial?

This will be my first properly vintage rolex purchase and i would love to make it a good one!

Again, I do not claim to be a vintage rolex expert. In fact I have been only educated through this wonderful forum so far but i have learned to trust it since there is a wealth of knowledge in here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[brandonwahl]

I bought a 1675 5.6 serial from John (Springer) a few months ago. It had a mark IV dial and he told me that the piece was indeed 100% period correct. I definitely did lots of research on that issue. He even showed me one of his own watches in a very close serial with a Mark IV dial. Here is my watch as a reference.

[brandonwahl]

Although in looking at your original post it seems you have a Mark 5 variation. Not a Mark 4.

Check out this link, courtesy of Springer:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...ight=gmt+dials

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by brandonwahl

Although in looking at your original post it seems you have a Mark 5 variation. Not a Mark 4.



Check out this link, courtesy of Springer:



http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...ight=gmt+dials

What is the difference between the mark 4 and the mark 5 dial?
Is is the Rolex crown?
I have been told that it is a maxi 4 dial and I cannot make the difference between the 4 and the 5


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brandonwahl]

Check out the link I sent to the dial variations.

On the Mark 4:

- Crown is more spread out at top and wider
- In the text at the bottom you'll see the HC letters all in a straight line below the A in Master

On the Mark 5:
- Crown is more narrow and skinny
- In the text at the bottom you'll see the HC letters in a different alignment

Keep checking letter alignments in the text and you'll see all kinds of differences between the two.

Also read the entire thread and you'll see samples and comments from other members.

Also you can check out this link with more pictures of different serial numbers and their corresponding dials:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/539585

Like I said earlier...vintage Rolex really makes you think and requires a ton of knowledge when dealing with sellers you may not know. Even well known and legitimate websites sell watches that aren't period correct, so knowledge is power. If you want a watch that is period correct then do tons of research...and expect to pay accordingly. If this sort of thing doesn't matter to you then you have much more options to choose from. For me I wanted a period correct watch, but the truth is 99% of people won't even know the difference.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Is the insert on the allred legit? It has those top heavy 2s. Not a great start

Hard to tell sometimes, but the 2s on the aftermarket inserts are usually more hooked than the ones in the OP's photos, as outlined in this excellent thread below on the subject by Springer. Still, there are aftermarket inserts out there that don't have the "hooked 2s", so who knows. Such a minefield.


http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=462474

[ar.parask13]

Originally Posted by brandonwahl

Check out the link I sent to the dial variations.



On the Mark 4:



- Crown is more spread out at top and wider

- In the text at the bottom you'll see the HC letters all in a straight line below the A in Master



On the Mark 5:

- Crown is more narrow and skinny

- In the text at the bottom you'll see the HC letters in a different alignment



Keep checking letter alignments in the text and you'll see all kinds of differences between the two.



Also read the entire thread and you'll see samples and comments from other members.



Also you can check out this link with more pictures of different serial numbers and their corresponding dials:



http://www.network54.com/Forum/539585



Like I said earlier...vintage Rolex really makes you think and requires a ton of knowledge when dealing with sellers you may not know. Even well known and legitimate websites sell watches that aren't period correct, so knowledge is power. If you want a watch that is period correct then do tons of research...and expect to pay accordingly. If this sort of thing doesn't matter to you then you have much more options to choose from. For me I wanted a period correct watch, but the truth is 99% of people won't even know the difference.

Thank you,

This has been really useful. Agreed and that is the reason I asked about the watch in the forum. As I previously stated the knowledge here is amazing.
I also agree that most people would not have a clue but it is important to me to know what I have on my hand.
This one is not cheap in the first place so due dilligence is important..
As far as the crown is concerned, could it seem norrower due to the angle of the shot?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brandonwahl]

I am far from an expert. Honestly I probably fall into the advanced beginner range. From the pictures I see I would believe that to be a Mark 5 dial, which is 100% in range for the 5.5 serial number range. There is dial overlap between serial numbers close to transitional changes (ie, you could find a Mark 4 dial on a 5.2 or a 5.5 watch, but you'd never find one on a 1.5 watch).

Also check this link regarding bracelet codes:

http://rolex-sub.blogspot.com/2013/0...elet-code.html

Ask for more pictures from the seller (including bracelet and endlink codes). Then piece as many facts together about the watch. If a few facts don't add up then you have to wonder what else might not add up? Knowledge is power.

It took me almost a full year before pulling the trigger on my watch. I would fall asleep looking at pictures of 1675's. And I did endless research until the right watch came along. The best advice I could ever give is don't buy something you won't be 100% happy with. Only you can answer that question though. Enjoy the hunt.

[springer]

Originally Posted by ar.parask13

First of all I am sorry if I jumped the gun when judging your response.
Apart from the all red hand I have the following questions.
Is a mark 4 maxi dial wrong for a 5.5 mil watch? All the information I have found so far seems to say that this is correct.

How would you judge the condition of the case and the dial?

This will be my first properly vintage rolex purchase and i would love to make it a good one!

Again, I do not claim to be a vintage rolex expert. In fact I have been only educated through this wonderful forum so far but i have learned to trust it since there is a wealth of knowledge in here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

5.5 is within range for a Mark IV.

[springer]

Originally Posted by brandonwahl

I am far from an expert. Honestly I probably fall into the advanced beginner range. From the pictures I see I would believe that to be a Mark 5 dial, which is 100% in range for the 5.5 serial number range. There is dial overlap between serial numbers close to transitional changes (ie, you could find a Mark 4 dial on a 5.2 or a 5.5 watch, but you'd never find one on a 1.5 watch).

Also check this link regarding bracelet codes:

http://rolex-sub.blogspot.com/2013/0...elet-code.html

Ask for more pictures from the seller (including bracelet and endlink codes). Then piece as many facts together about the watch. If a few facts don't add up then you have to wonder what else might not add up? Knowledge is power.

It took me almost a full year before pulling the trigger on my watch. I would fall asleep looking at pictures of 1675's. And I did endless research until the right watch came along. The best advice I could ever give is don't buy something you won't be 100% happy with. Only you can answer that question though. Enjoy the hunt.

You are correct, the dial in the photos found in the first post is a Mark V variation, not a Mark IV.

[ar.parask13]

Thanks to all of you guys for giving such good advice. I decided to hold off for one that sings to me. I can see why people like them but too many questions were raised with this one. My 16700 will have to do until I find a 16750 perhaps...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[terryuk]

Originally Posted by Tom1675

I am partial to the flat indexes - no white gold...

I strongly second that.

[Tom1675]

Originally Posted by ar.parask13

Thanks to all of you guys for giving such good advice. I decided to hold off for one that sings to me. I can see why people like them but too many questions were raised with this one. My 16700 will have to do until I find a 16750 perhaps...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Keep asking and right on for the patience it'll come your way... And yes the 16700 will do nicely as a placeholder

[springer]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Is the insert on the allred legit? It has those top heavy 2s. Not a great start

The insert on the GMT 1675 looks genuine. I don't see any issues with it and appears to be a correct late 1970s insert.

[donq]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RrxePKps87k

Isn't that the "Nick Cave Rolex"?