The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Old 13 April 2020, 12:55 AM   #91
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKTINC1 View Post
I used a Credit Card for my 50% deposit a few years ago. Figured I could claim on my card if the dealer went south.
There are NO guarantees in bankruptcy. You can do some quick research and see for yourself. Once the well runs dry, the unsecured creditors (credit card users) at the back of the line are often left holding the bag.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 01:31 AM   #92
Michael T
2024 Pledge Member
 
Michael T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
You are so right about contracts... Even with actual judgements in your favor--I remember seeing an interview with Fred Goldman (the father of the slain Ron Goldman from the OJ trial), and he said a judgement is just a piece of paper, referring to the $40 million his family was awarded in the civil suit. He basically said, now you have to hound him for whatever crumbs are left for the rest of your/his life.

And these guys in here are thinking they'll get deposits back from bankrupted businesses. Cool story.
They had trouble attaching the judgment to OJ as he moved to Florida which has homestead laws (unlevered house in Florida is non attachable) and his Pension was also non attachable.
Michael T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 01:41 AM   #93
Michael T
2024 Pledge Member
 
Michael T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
We have those protections, but I'm sure, like yours, they're limited...

As an "unsecured" creditor now, you will be at the back of the line of ALL creditors in bankruptcy proceedings--behind any bondholders, secured lenders, employees due wages, benefits, and retirement costs, professional fees associated with the case, etc... Will there be anything left for you? Probably not.

Good luck with that in the UK, as here in the US.
Bonds can be secured or unsecured obligations. There can be multiple layers of secured debt (first lien, second lien, etc.) Wages and benefits (other than those protected ERISA and only partially) are unsecured obligations, unless recycled in first day orders. Professional fees are administrative and are paid first. The absolute priority provisions in the US Bankruptcy Code govern. Each class must be paid in full before a lower claims class is paid anything (other than small “tips”) to avoid prolonged litigation.
Michael T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 02:23 AM   #94
Njw
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
We have those protections, but I'm sure, like yours, they're limited...

As an "unsecured" creditor now, you will be at the back of the line of ALL creditors in bankruptcy proceedings--behind any bondholders, secured lenders, employees due wages, benefits, and retirement costs, professional fees associated with the case, etc... Will there be anything left for you? Probably not.

Good luck with that in the UK, as here in the US.
It doesn’t matter where you are in the line. The CC company pays you out in full and they reclaim whatever they can. That’s what the regulations are for, at least in the UK.
Njw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 03:09 AM   #95
csaltphoto
"TRF" Member
 
csaltphoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: US
Watch: sub
Posts: 2,274
The trust thing works both ways. Without securing the loan in some way (IE with collateral) I would think about it like loaning money to a friend. Only loan what you are prepared to lose.

Leaving a large deposit for a hot piece? See if the AD wants to secure the loan. A contract is basically worthless in a bankruptcy even if the judgement goes your way. YOU still have to recover the money and small businesses will be at the bottom of the heap when this thing is over. Now one way to secure the loan is arrange for you to hold an unpopular but valuable PM piece. Put it writing and everything so it's all upfront. Find an AD that is willing to agree to a deal like that and you are safe. I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth of AD's who want you to trust them but aren't willing to trust you.
csaltphoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 03:52 AM   #96
SlideRacker
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Orange County, CA
Watch: 116500LN Black
Posts: 559
The AD will never agree to that. Their only hope is to find a sucker who will play ball.
SlideRacker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:09 AM   #97
shaunylw
"TRF" Member
 
shaunylw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Here
Posts: 4,504
I would not give an AD money up front for anything right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
shaunylw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:17 AM   #98
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Njw View Post
It doesn’t matter where you are in the line. The CC company pays you out in full and they reclaim whatever they can. That’s what the regulations are for, at least in the UK.
Admittedly, I don't know about the UK, but my guess is that CCs, even taken as a whole, are at the back of the line.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:21 AM   #99
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael T View Post
Bonds can be secured or unsecured obligations. There can be multiple layers of secured debt (first lien, second lien, etc.) Wages and benefits (other than those protected ERISA and only partially) are unsecured obligations, unless recycled in first day orders. Professional fees are administrative and are paid first. The absolute priority provisions in the US Bankruptcy Code govern. Each class must be paid in full before a lower claims class is paid anything (other than small “tips”) to avoid prolonged litigation.
From my careful research of this subject, every entity you listed stands in front of CCs. A CC will most likely NOT save you--you're educated on this subject--and you know that.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:25 AM   #100
psv
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North America
Posts: 11,053
Why put a deposit on a watch?
psv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:33 AM   #101
Njw
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
Admittedly, I don't know about the UK, but my guess is that CCs, even taken as a whole, are at the back of the line.
The CC company pays you back when you make the claim to them. End of story. How much they get back and when they get it back is immaterial to me as a consumer. I get my money back. That is the UK regulation.
Njw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:39 AM   #102
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Njw View Post
The CC company pays you back when you make the claim to them. End of story. How much they get back and when they get it back is immaterial to me as a consumer. I get my money back. That is the UK regulation.
Maybe so... Though I find it hard to believe that there's zero risk to the consumer, while all the risk rests with the the CC.

Sorry, bro, maybe you're right, but I'm skeptical.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:41 AM   #103
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by psv View Post
Why put a deposit on a watch?
Guys in here love being "liked" by the AD... They like paying for a fake friendship.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 04:43 AM   #104
Njw
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 72
This is the advice from a well known consumer website in the UK about claiming the funds.

If the retailer/supplier has gone bust – go to your credit card provider
Here it's clear-cut – you can't go to anyone else so the only option is to claim from the credit company. Simply call your credit provider and tell it what you're doing. Actually say: "I am making a claim under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act".

Sometimes it will tell you it will try to reclaim the cash from the company in administration. You can simply answer: "Great news, I wish you the best of luck. However you are completely liable for my goods yourself, and I would like the full amount I'm entitled to please, regardless of that claim."
Njw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 05:42 AM   #105
DBlue2018
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Bit like how British airways should
Refund me for a flight they cancelled

But when it all goes to sh17 which it has I can’t call them and they won’t return emails

Guarantees and laws are good but in times of
Crisis they are often worth v little
DBlue2018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 05:49 AM   #106
Michael T
2024 Pledge Member
 
Michael T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
From my careful research of this subject, every entity you listed stands in front of CCs. A CC will most likely NOT save you--you're educated on this subject--and you know that.
It is whether you have any recourse to the credit card company. The card agreements vary on time. This is outside any bankruptcy. If the credit card company were to refund your money, they would subrogate to your claim. This does not negate you claim against debtor, (the company that filed bankruptcy), it would transfer it.
Michael T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:06 AM   #107
Njw
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBlue2018 View Post
Bit like how British airways should
Refund me for a flight they cancelled

But when it all goes to sh17 which it has I can’t call them and they won’t return emails

Guarantees and laws are good but in times of
Crisis they are often worth v little
That doesn’t mean you won’t get it back at some point, as you are legally entitled to.
Njw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:14 AM   #108
SJC
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: FL
Watch: DSSD-Blue 126660
Posts: 91
I paid 100% down, up front, and waited 3 months. its fine. Did this twice. Relax.
SJC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:22 AM   #109
Marcjvr
"TRF" Member
 
Marcjvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Southeast
Watch: 214270
Posts: 2,533
Can’t believe people on here have to have watches so bad that they even consider this during this unprecedented crisis. So many lessons are going to be learned from all of this, don’t become one of them.

If you do put down a deposit and your AD does go under, and many business are going to go under, you will be kicking yourself and everyone who hears the story will ask you “what the heck were you thinking?”

They’re just watches people...Rolex makes millions of the darn things
Marcjvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:36 AM   #110
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcjvr View Post
Can’t believe people on here have to have watches so bad that they even consider this during this unprecedented crisis. So many lessons are going to be learned from all of this, don’t become one of them.

If you do put down a deposit and your AD does go under, and many business are going to go under, you will be kicking yourself and everyone who hears the story will ask you “what the heck were you thinking?”

They’re just watches people...Rolex makes millions of the darn things
I love how people think CCs will save them... If it were that clear-cut and easy, it would be common knowledge, and guess what? This thread wouldn't exist! It would be pointless and redundant.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:37 AM   #111
pholzer
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Atlanta Ga
Posts: 55
To me i will be very comfortable depositing with my AD, it depends on your relationship with your AD that brings about confidents also if it's a time piece needed, then you can go miles to get it.
pholzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:40 AM   #112
Xtralarg
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: London/Dubai
Posts: 713
https://youtu.be/ojsWk7I-bhs
Xtralarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:55 AM   #113
jgmvm2087
"TRF" Member
 
jgmvm2087's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Real Name: Judson
Location: New Orleans, LA
Watch: Yachtmaster Blue
Posts: 53
This thread has taken an interesting turn. I understand that the OP is concerned about loss of the deposit in the case of Chapter 11. Which is bankruptcy for companies/organizations. What I find interesting is that no one is mentioning Rolex here. As an AD, they are essentially agents of Rolex, even though they are a third party, separate company/entity within the exchange relationship of you (the consumer) and Rolex (the manufacturer). When I say “agent” I mean they are acting on Rolex’s behalf. This means the AD not only has a duty to you, but also to Rolex. Their duty to you is to fulfill their contractual agreement, whether it be expressed or implied, and to Rolex, to represent them as Rolex deems suitable. Hence the word “authorized” dealer. Having an AD that that doubles as a strip club at night would not be suitable. Likewise, having an AD that takes deposits in pieces they don’t intend to supply before filing bankruptcy would also not be suitable.

But let’s just say that’s what happens. As an agent of Rolex, the AD is acting on their behalf when they take your deposit. This means Rolex can be held accountable. Yes, it’s true. The same way when a Dominos pizza delivery guy is at fault in a car accident. That Dominos might be a corporate store or a franchise. But one of the risks as a franchise corporation is that any actions of any agent out of that franchise can hold the Dominos Corporation liable. You heard of the McDonald coffee incident right? It’s the same thing here. The AD folds, you can then go after Rolex.

Now, let’s go deeper. That might seem frightening to most people. How would anyone be able to go up against Rolex? Keep in mind that bankruptcy is filed in Federal court not your local small claims. There is only one Federal circuit that is solely dedicated to Copyrights, Trademarks, and Bankruptcy. As I suggested in my previous post, if you have your agreement in writing, therefore it is no longer open ended and it is expressed, you will have a right to become whole again that will be based on a Federal judgment. That’s pretty powerful. Additionally, the AD would be considered to have acted with mal intent as an agent of Rolex, and Rolex themselves could be held liable to give you restitution. This might take a while but you would get your money back. And honestly, Rolex would probably not even wait for a judgment. They would probably go ahead and make things right as they wouldn’t want the headache.

Lastly, many ADs have been in business for a very long time. Adler’s in New Orleans, for example has multiple locations and has been around for over 100 years, since 1898 to be exact. How many recessions, bubbles, and collapses have occurred since then? A lot. And they are still alive and ticking. Pun intended. All I’m saying is that it would take a lot for some of these ADs to go under. Maybe that should be a big part of your decision. How long have they been an AD? What other forms of business do they depend on? Most ADs don’t just sell Rolexes. Most don’t just sell timepieces.

I hope this brings some ease to anyone who might be concerned.

Best of luck to you all! I’m still waiting on my Hulk after 2 years, and no I didn’t put down a deposit. But if my AD called me and asked me if I was interested, I just might go ahead and do it. I would most certainly take the necessary measures of getting something in writing in order to protect myself and that denotes when that piece would be on my wrist.
__________________
Best Regards,

Judson

“It does not require many words to speak the truth.”
-Chief Joseph Nez Perce
jgmvm2087 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 06:57 AM   #114
joli160
2024 Pledge Member
 
joli160's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NL
Watch: Yachtmaster
Posts: 14,280
There are certain establishments where one has to pay upfront, an AD is not one of those
__________________
Day Date 18238, Yachtmaster 16622, Deepsea 116660, Submariner 116619, SkyD 326935, DJ 178271, DJ 69158, Yachtmaster 169622, GMT 116713LN, GMT 126711.
joli160 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 07:02 AM   #115
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
I think the Rolex, Dominoes, McDonald's correlation is a bad example because with Dominoes and McDonald's, you're buying directly from the company. With Rolex, you're buying from an AD that had already purchased the product from Rolex, so Rolex already made the sale.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 07:05 AM   #116
GovernorsGovernor
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 212
Hey, nothing lasts forever either, buddy. Nothing is guaranteed. Here in Michigan, we've seen many long-time Rolex ADs shuttered over the years.
GovernorsGovernor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 07:06 AM   #117
jlovda
"TRF" Member
 
jlovda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Real Name: John
Location: Midwest
Watch: 5513,1675,216570
Posts: 1,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
I think the Rolex, Dominoes, McDonald's correlation is a bad example because with Dominoes and McDonald's, you're buying directly from the company. With Rolex, you're buying from an AD that had already purchased the product from Rolex, so Rolex already made the sale.
is a franchisee the same as an authorized dealer? You don't buy hamburgers from a McDonalds "AD."
jlovda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 07:08 AM   #118
gold&black
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 357
CC law or not. Laws can be changed and especially if a number of claims are made at once. How are they going to refund everyone?

Your buying from an AD not Rolex directly. Ive not been contacted myself but a friend has and he declined. I would do the same too.
gold&black is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 07:09 AM   #119
csaltphoto
"TRF" Member
 
csaltphoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: US
Watch: sub
Posts: 2,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by joli160 View Post
There are certain establishments where one has to pay upfront, an AD is not one of those
Then the AD ought to be buying you dinner first...
csaltphoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 April 2020, 07:14 AM   #120
Harry-57
2024 Pledge Member
 
Harry-57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Real Name: Harry
Location: England
Posts: 9,543
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor View Post
Admittedly, I don't know about the UK, but my guess is that CCs, even taken as a whole, are at the back of the line.
For recovering money on behalf of their users they are low in the pecking order, because individual punters are low in the pecking order. One private individual's loss, even if thousands, doesn't make much of a blip on the administrator's radar. It probably doesn't blip at all.

For recovering money spent by bankrupt companies on their corporate credit cards, they are right up there with the front runners. In the UK.
Harry-57 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Takuya Watches

Bobs Watches

My Watch LLC

OCWatches

DavidSW Watches

Coronet


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.