Has Patek overpriced themselves?

[BrunoMalik]

Was discussing this on another thread but i think it warrants its own section.

I was looking at Patek retail prices as i plan to start a relationship with the brand and i was surprised how much they charge for their complications.

5524 for 60k??? Are we really expected to pay that kind of money for a dual time white gold watch on a strap and pin buckle?
5172 for 85k??? Manual chrono on a strap for almost 6 figures??? This is just a pure cash grab. For that money AP gives you a full automatic inhouse chrono with flyback in precious metal and with the best bracelet you have ever seen.
And i can go on and on:
5935 for 70k (steel watch on a strap with a modular movement)
5226 for 40k time only calatrava with a legacy movement

Not to mention the Nautilus and Aquanaut, but at least those hold their value.

I like Patek and their complications but i find them massively overpriced. I might just keep focusing on AP instead as i find them a much better value and just pickup Patek in the gray market. The 5524 is almost half of its retail price now.

Is it worth to start a relationship and pay full retail at this point?


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[Moondoggy]

I don't even know how to have a relationship with a watch.

[patlex]

PP watches are pricey for a reason. For me, is a dream to own them, and pass them down to my children. Each of the timepieces I owned have a (beautiful) story behind, which I share with them during the acquisition process. And these stories are digitally documented.

Unless you are fully convinced that it is not a mere timepiece, then paying the amounts that you have indicated will always be considered far too excessive compared to other brands (or even other priorities). Your next best alternative besides paying at retail is to go grey, hopefully with some luck you can pick up your desired timepieces for a good price.

All the best in the journey and Happy New Year!

[Crown & Shield]

Originally Posted by patlex

PP watches are pricey for a reason. For me, is a dream to own them, and pass them down to my children. Each of the timepieces I owned have a (beautiful) story behind, which I share with them during the acquisition process. And these stories are digitally documented.

Unless you are fully convinced that it is not a mere timepiece, then paying the amounts that you have indicated will always be considered far too excessive compared to other brands (or even other priorities). Your next best alternative besides paying at retail is to go grey, hopefully with some luck you can pick up your desired timepieces for a good price.

All the best in the journey and Happy New Year!

Someone did not wait for Midnight to drink the Kool-Aid
Most Pateks are way overpriced and overrated IMHO.

[cascavel]

Here are your choices: buy a new, overpriced Patek and take the hit if you want to resell it but begin to establish a relationship with the AD so that, someday, you can get a Nautilus at list price, or buy the Patek with complications in the secondary market at a discount and buy your Nautilus in the secondary market at a premium to MSRP.
Somewhere there is probably an app that helps calculate the cost/benefit ratio of buying retail vs grey market. If you find it, let me know.

[Partekular]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22a56c392b743f

Read the pdf - explains our insane lust for luxury goods…

Thierry Stern did rather expose his cynicism by milking the price for the 5811 which added £20,000 to the 5711 for £5000(?) worth of white gold using the same mechanism. I suspect he wanted to see how far he could push the price and try to get a cut from the grey market price.

Hermes handbags restricted supply and hiked prices are in the same game.

[MadSpaniard]

I agree, Pateks are absurdly priced. As are virtually all high-end brands (some more than others).

Yet here we are. We pony up crazy wads of cash to own one. Myself included. And speaking for myself, I don't regret it one bit. I like my Pateks a lot and I'm glad to own them. But never, not even for one second, do I ever think they're "a good deal" or "a good value".

Let's be honest, it's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a watch. Although of course, it's not just the watch we're paying for. It's the brand, the aura, the exclusivity, the history, the legacy... and yes, a healthy margin.

In short, I don't think you buy a Patek as a rational or logically justifiable decision. Rather, you buy a Patek because you appreciate it, because you like it, because it moves you, because it makes you smile when you look at it – in spite of the price.

And like many here, being fully aware of how irrational it looks on the face of it, I'll likely be back for one more before it's all said and done.

Cheers.

[Partekular]

Originally Posted by MadSpaniard

I agree, Pateks are absurdly priced. As are virtually all high-end brands (some more than others).

Yet here we are. We pony up crazy wads of cash to own one. Myself included. And speaking for myself, I don't regret it one bit. I like my Pateks a lot and I'm glad to own them. But never, not even for one second, do I ever think they're "a good deal" or "a good value".

Let's be honest, it's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a watch. Although of course, it's not just the watch we're paying for. It's the brand, the aura, the exclusivity, the history, the legacy... and yes, a healthy margin.

In short, I don't think you buy a Patek as a rational or logically justifiable decision. Rather, you buy a Patek because you appreciate it, because you like it, because it moves you, because it makes you smile when you look at it – in spite of the price.

And like many here, being fully aware of how irrational it looks on the face of it, I'll likely be back for one more before it's all said and done.

Cheers.

Exactly so! ME TOO.


Interesting to read the pdf to determine which category of luxury purchaser one falls into…

[patlex]

Originally Posted by Crown & Shield

Someone did not wait for Midnight to drink the Kool-Aid
Most Pateks are way overpriced and overrated IMHO.

You must have forgotten to take your medicine, mate
I said PP watches are expensive. And yes, I’m perhaps a sucker to buy into their tagline. End of day, it’s a willing buyer, willing seller. Whatever makes you happy, just do it. Cheers

[mykii]

Lol... If PP doesn't have pricing power, who should? PP has something that most other independents can't offer, which is history and legacy. There's also a reason why PP remains the most mentioned watch brand in billboard top 100 hits (present in 1/3rd of all songs). People talk about the Rolex brand meaning something. In the world of watches, PP remains king, and is likely to stay that way.

These are all bad examples but the point remains - PP has true brand power, and for a brand posturing to the top 1%, a $40k entry price or so isn't so crazy when people are literally lining up to buy day dates (yawn).

[0.1]

The best watches are PP and VC. If you want the best, you gotta be willing to pay the price. RM and AP would come after these.

[watchgeezer]

If that's how you feel, you would probably be better off just buying the stuff in secondary market/

[fsprow]

Originally Posted by Crown & Shield

Someone did not wait for Midnight to drink the Kool-Aid
Most Pateks are way overpriced and overrated IMHO.

Gee, I missed the humble part of IMHO

[Harry_S]

I think the OP makes some valid points and with the multiple price increases of the brands during this year I feel Patek, AP even Vacheron have really started squeezing their customers for more profit to the point some collectors ask “is it really worth it?”
Was offered a 26331 at just above retail and a 5711/A at not much more than €85k so yes its a case of reevaluating AD relationships and thinking do I really need to buy all these (lovely as they are) unwanted references just to get the sports grail that I want?
In this current market I would be seriously tempted to go grey at these prices to circumvent AD games.

[BrunoMalik]

Originally Posted by MadSpaniard

I agree, Pateks are absurdly priced. As are virtually all high-end brands (some more than others).

Yet here we are. We pony up crazy wads of cash to own one. Myself included. And speaking for myself, I don't regret it one bit. I like my Pateks a lot and I'm glad to own them. But never, not even for one second, do I ever think they're "a good deal" or "a good value".

Let's be honest, it's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a watch. Although of course, it's not just the watch we're paying for. It's the brand, the aura, the exclusivity, the history, the legacy... and yes, a healthy margin.

In short, I don't think you buy a Patek as a rational or logically justifiable decision. Rather, you buy a Patek because you appreciate it, because you like it, because it moves you, because it makes you smile when you look at it – in spite of the price.

And like many here, being fully aware of how irrational it looks on the face of it, I'll likely be back for one more before it's all said and done.

Cheers.

In absolute terms, i fully agree with you. Its ridiculous what we pay for luxury watches. Even a 2k Tudor would most likely look like a ridiculous purchase to the masses.

However, my question was relative to other brands and especially AP, which i do collect already. They are both part of the holy trinity and i personally prefer the design and build quality of AP better, yet Patek seems to charge 20-30% more at retail level for like for like. And the complications are totally out of whack in terms of price considering you don’t even get the PM bracelet in most cases.


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[BrunoMalik]

Originally Posted by 0.1

The best watches are PP and VC. If you want the best, you gotta be willing to pay the price. RM and AP would come after these.

Thats at best debatable and at worst downright false. Put the Nautilus next to the RO and come back to me. VC is not even in the same conversation.


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[ChetBaker]

Well in all fairness AP has long outstayed its welcome in the Trinity. A one trick pony that has just the RO and the failed 11:59 masquerading as a dress watch. VC any day of the week imho.

[mario1971]

Originally Posted by 0.1

The best watches are PP and VC. If you want the best, you gotta be willing to pay the price. RM and AP would come after these.

In my opinion Lange are the best, and in addition quite decently priced.

[bobernet]

Clearly overpriced. That’s why they sit, endlessly, in dealer cases. Even the 30%, 50%, 70% off clearance prices can’t get them sold. Oh, wait…

[Coolcamden]

Originally Posted by bobernet

Clearly overpriced. That’s why they sit, endlessly, in dealer cases. Even the 30%, 50%, 70% off clearance prices can’t get them sold. Oh, wait…

Hahaha… nice. That got a hearty chuckle.

[macrowatch]

I’m reminded of this one old Dilbert comic where instead of asking for a raise, he asks to have his coworkers paid less.

At some point in luxury I think the intended plan is you pay for one watch at the price of 3-5 watches so others can’t have it.

I do remain impressed that Patek dress is generally selling through without discount and starting to come back in fashion.

[BrunoMalik]

Originally Posted by bobernet

Clearly overpriced. That’s why they sit, endlessly, in dealer cases. Even the 30%, 50%, 70% off clearance prices can’t get them sold. Oh, wait…

Oh stop it. They only reason they sell is because they are bundled with Nautilus and Aquanaut.

And yes, watches like 5524 are 40% below MSRP in the gray market. And yes, they will start sitting endlessly in dealers cases just like they were a short 2 years ago… and pretty much for the majority of the almost 200 years of Patek existence (minus the last 2 years).

[BrunoMalik]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Well in all fairness AP has long outstayed its welcome in the Trinity. A one trick pony that has just the RO and the failed 11:59 masquerading as a dress watch. VC any day of the week imho.

They have a hell of a trick though. Such a great trick that both PP and VC copied it. Actually, PP is selling the rest of their catalogue on back of the success of their copied trick. Shall we call them the “one copied trick pony”?

Leave VC out of this. They were not even good enough to copy.


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[subtona]

One factor that separates patek from the pack is their commitment to servicing all of their watches and using original parts. I don’t know of another brand that has made that commitment and has a history of honoring it. This makes a Patek truly a unique heirloom to pass down.

I find this a compelling reason to spend my money on the brand rather than others.

Brands that are owned by conglomerates do not inspire the same confidence.

Rolex does not offer that kind of commitment to service and customer support

[BrunoMalik]

Originally Posted by subtona

One factor that separates patek from the pack is their commitment to servicing all of their watches and using original parts. I don’t know of another brand that has made that commitment and has a history of honoring it. This makes a Patek truly a unique heirloom to pass down.

I find this a compelling reason to spend my money on the brand rather than others.

This is a great reason, thank you. Didn’t know this.


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[Yobrooks]

Love this thread. The "allure" Patek compared with the rest of the pack is multi-faceted as nicely discussed above. Whether it's the AD relationship, the attention to detail, the legendary movement innovation, the new references, the rarity, the precision of their movements, the legacy, their independence . I can go on and on. No other brand comes close when you put all of it together. You aren't just buying a watch with Patek, you're buying much more.

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[subtona]

Recently I asked Patek service about the possibility of getting a bracelet for my watch, it was never sold on a bracelet. Patek response was a very cordial denial. They stated simply we cannot do that it would affect the collectors market. While I was disappointed, I appreciated where they were coming from.

In contrast rolex has never in my experience shown any consideration for collectibility.

On another occasion I asked a independent brand if they would swap out the hand set for another style as I didn’t think it was appropriate for the dial (the hands were too short and weak for the dial) … they said yes… as a result I sold the watch… it felt wrong to me that they were so uncommitted to their choices.

Similarly while Voutilainen watches are quite interesting, their business model of allowing broad use of customization, imho watered down the brand and insured they were not a serious consideration for me.



Please consider the above as examples of the sickness of being a watch collector that knows he is nuts.

[HAPConst]

Some of you guys make me laugh. You describe handing down your watches to your children like you are giving them nuclear codes. If you are that hesitant or need a “process” I think you have other problems.

[inadeje]

I agree with you OP, however, in realistic terms Patek could increase a further 30% and they’ll probably still sell everything they produce in a given year.

Analogy- Yes, the entry fee to the club is extortionate, but there are more people wishing to join than there are available memberships…

The above is nothing that a high stakes recession won’t correct. At which point Patek and others may regret their gluttony for a few years until it subsides.

[BrunoMalik]

Originally Posted by Yobrooks

Love this thread. The "allure" Patek compared with the rest of the pack is multi-faceted as nicely discussed above. Whether it's the AD relationship, the attention to detail, the legendary movement innovation, the new references, the rarity, the precision of their movements, the legacy, their independence . I can go on and on. No other brand comes close when you put all of it together. You aren't just buying a watch with Patek, you're buying much more.

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Ok Thierry, thanks.

Rarity? 70k watches a year…

Innovation? 1/10 of a second manual chrono for 400k, woow. The king of calendars cant stop using pin pushers from 100 years ago. MB&F, a brand with 1/10 of Patek existence has already outdone them in PC innovation. Automatic chronographs use a pin pusher for the date. Manual chronographs at almost 12mm thick. Pls point out the innovation in the last 20 years.

New references: “5811: 1mm bigger, 20k more expensive. Other than that, still the same”

They have some great references. The 5270 is fantastic and unmatched by others. But you are using a very wide brush here.


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