GMT II 16760 Bracelet Question

[yojoe85]

Hello everyone, I recently purchased a 1984 16760 from Bob’s Watches. At some point a previous owner switched the band to a Submariner 93150 bracelet. I sourced a correct 62510 bracelet from a reputable Chrono24 dealer. The bracelet is stamped 62510H. Does the H signify a RSC replacement bracelet? Any help would be appreciated.

[Tools]

Your GMT may have come with the optional "Sub" bracelet standard.

It is wrong to classify that bracelet as a "Sub" bracelet or diver bracelet, it is an extension bracelet and allows the watch to be worn over a flight suit - a popular option.

As to the 62510H, that is the part number, and the H doesn't mean anything different. There are 2 different Jubilees though. Those made for the 36mm case Datejusts, and those made for the 40mm GMT models. The GMT version would have 50 stamped last links to fit 2mm spring bars, and 502 end links to fit the larger case curve and larger spring bars.

[yojoe85]

Thanks for the insight. The bracelet is the correct GMT version. I didn’t realize the 93150 bracelet was an option. Thanks!

[TuRo]

The 16760 was shown in catalogues mostly on a 78360 but could be bought on a 62510h for a slightly different price, and dealers had drawers of various ones, so a 93150 was a possible fit too as stated by Tools. In fact, I had a pal that had a 93150 fitted by dealer to a 1016 in the 80s - it looked bit odd I thought as clasp was too big compared to head !

My research (for something else and in respect of the Renaissance of the Jubilee on sports watches which came about with the BLNR 4-5 yrs ago), has identified that jubilee 6251h on sports GMTS after the initial thin case 6542/1675, when they were nearly as popular as 7206 Oysters).

However on 16760 only ONE IN TEN were supplied on 62510h on 50 endies (as jubilee bracelets on GMTs were not popular in 80/90/00s)- 90 % where on 78360 oyster as such.

With the Renaissance of jubilee I think many, many recently marketed 1675/16750/60/700/710 are being sold by (slightly unscrupulous) dealers on DJ Jubilee on 55s to maximise their profit !!

[springer]

Paul, where did you find out that only one in ten GMT 16760s came on Jubilees? That would be some great info to know if it could be verified information from Rolex.

Also, the 93150 Oyster was a standard option on the GMT II 16760 when purchased new, so the 93150 was not just a dealer installed bracelet on the 16760.

I am confused on the percentages that you gave regarding the various GMT bracelets that came on the 16760 model. If 10% were Jubilees, and 90% were 78360 Oysters, then what percentage were 93150s?

Also, regarding the 62510H Jubilee, the H indicated it was the larger version of the bracelet as found on the men's models and not the smaller Jubilee found on the lady's models.

Below are two photos - one is a 16750 warranty paper and the other is 16760 warranty paper inside its cardboard sleeve. Both papers indicate that these GMTs came with factory installed 93150 bracelets from Rolex .

[TuRo]

John, Part of 120 broad questions to numerous (about 85 organisations) worldwide both ex and current Rolex Service and a Rolex Retailers over last 4 years, as part of a much broader report.

They were asked 'in 80s and 90s what % GMT on jubilee' - answer range was from max of 25 down to 5% the mean though was 10%.

Its not verified ROLEX Info - but then again what is !

That's interesting on the 93150. I have every UK and some EU brochures from 1953 to date, and I checked a few at random. And for example one I have to hand here for 16th Mar 1981 UK it shows 16750 £402 on 78360, and £429 on 62510 no mention of 93150 - I wonder if North America specific...but you pictures clearly show it as a bona fide thing.

On my Renaissance Jubilee statement i.e 'jubilees coming out of the woodwork' - we used whole year historical C24 records from 2017 and again now and DRUMROLL, guess what, there are nearly 3 times more 75/750/710/700/760 on jubilee' for sale now than back then, bit of unusual rise me thinks !!!!

Rgds Paul

* Ps haven't forgot to check 1972-1977 brochures esp Japan for when black bezel insert first appeared - just been swamped!

[springer]

Originally Posted by pauldavidthorpe

John, Part of 120 broad questions to numerous (about 85 organisations) worldwide both ex and current Rolex Service and a Rolex Retailers over last 4 years, as part of a much broader report.

They were asked 'in 80s and 90s what % GMT on jubilee' - answer range was from max of 25 down to 5% the mean though was 10%.

Its not verified ROLEX Info - but then again what is !

That's interesting on the 93150. I have every UK and some EU brochures from 1953 to date, and I checked a few at random. And for example one I have to hand here for 16th Mar 1981 UK it shows 16750 £402 on 78360, and £429 on 62510 no mention of 93150 - I wonder if North America specific...but you pictures clearly show it as a bona fide thing.

On my Renaissance Jubilee statement i.e 'jubilees coming out of the woodwork' - we used whole year historical C24 records from 2017 and again now and DRUMROLL, guess what, there are nearly 3 times more 75/750/710/700/760 on jubilee' for sale now than back then, bit of unusual rise me thinks !!!!

Rgds Paul

* Ps haven't forgot to check 1972-1977 brochures esp Japan for when black bezel insert first appeared - just been swamped!

My data regarding the bracelets was factual and not hearsay based on opinions from dealers or others, nor photos in Rolex booklets which do not indicate every bracelet available for a particular model. (GMT owners's manuals in my possession from the 1970s and 1980s only show the GMT models 1675, 16750 and 16760 on the Oyster bracelet and more specifically, the later manuals only depict them on the 78360 Oyster - not the 62510 Jubilee or the 93150 Oyster.)

[Tools]

Although the conversation is getting down into the weeds, I think that the takeaway is if the 93150 in question has date codes corresponding with the watch, it may very likely have been original to the watch.

Taking off an original Oyster bracelet, and changing it to an "appropriate" Jubilee bracelet would not be considered an upgrade

[yojoe85]

The 93150 has an ‘I’ 1984 bracelet. Thanks, I’ve learned a lot from this thread. Now to track down some links…

[yojoe85]

Well, it appears to be a franken bracelet. 501 endlinks, 78360 links and a date correct I2 93150 clasp. Any ideas? The most correct replacement would be an I2 78360, 93150 or 62510. Thanks, without the braintrust here I wouldn’t know where to look in the future.

[Woody]

In answer to one of the OPs questions the “H” stands for homme…..which signifies the bracelet is the larger (or men’s version) of the jubilee bracelet (see Springer’s post). Hope you enjoy your 16760

[TuRo]

As tools says we've gone properly into the weeds... Just noticed you said 1984 - coming back to other matters, you might have the good fortune to have an early non-date version - OYSTER PERPETUAL rather than OYSTER PERPETUAL DATE - Only found on early versions of 16750 and 16760 that had this and tbh until about 2009 nobody seemed to notice... but now they (so-called MK1) command a premium, such is the dubious Rolex 'up-fluffing' of just about everything over 25 yrs old !

[HL65]

^ and that would be 1983 for a no date.

[Dan S]

Perhaps we can see some photos?

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by HL65

^ and that would be 1983 for a no date.

Not wanting to contradict sir, but mine I had which was original full punched set receipted from dealer, was 8.42 million and I think considered '84... although it's not a science as tools has pointed out many times in the past. Unless you meant start point not end point, in which case ✓

[Tools]

Originally Posted by yojoe85

Well, it appears to be a franken bracelet. 501 endlinks, 78360 links and a date correct I2 93150 clasp. Any ideas? The most correct replacement would be an I2 78360, 93150 or 62510. Thanks, without the braintrust here I wouldn’t know where to look in the future.

Without firsthand experience it is likely to be a conundrum that is never solved. Many times, with a stretched bracelet, the halves are changed and the clasp retained to "match". Of course, other times a clasp is found with proper dating for appearances.

[springer]

Originally Posted by pauldavidthorpe

John, Part of 120 broad questions to numerous (about 85 organisations) worldwide both ex and current Rolex Service and a Rolex Retailers over last 4 years, as part of a much broader report.

They were asked 'in 80s and 90s what % GMT on jubilee' - answer range was from max of 25 down to 5% the mean though was 10%.

Its not verified ROLEX Info - but then again what is !

That's interesting on the 93150. I have every UK and some EU brochures from 1953 to date, and I checked a few at random. And for example one I have to hand here for 16th Mar 1981 UK it shows 16750 £402 on 78360, and £429 on 62510 no mention of 93150 - I wonder if North America specific...but you pictures clearly show it as a bona fide thing.

On my Renaissance Jubilee statement i.e 'jubilees coming out of the woodwork' - we used whole year historical C24 records from 2017 and again now and DRUMROLL, guess what, there are nearly 3 times more 75/750/710/700/760 on jubilee' for sale now than back then, bit of unusual rise me thinks !!!!

Rgds Paul

* Ps haven't forgot to check 1972-1977 brochures esp Japan for when black bezel insert first appeared - just been swamped!

Paul, while you might be correct about there are more Jubilees on GMTs for sale now, what you do not mention is that if you really do some additional investigation on these bracelets, you'll see that many of those Jubilees are Datejust Jubilees on GMTs. Frankly, I see this all the time and would agree with you that many of these GMTs are offered for sale on Jubilee bracelets but that doesn't mean that they were all correct GMT Jubilees.

Also, you ask, "What is verified Rolex info" well, you can start with the bracelet info that I placed in this thread. As far as conjecture from all your sources, that is their opinion. Facts and documented sources have always worked well for me.

I would love to see you start a thread on these surveys with dealers that you mentioned in your last post.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by pauldavidthorpe

With the Renaissance of jubilee I think many, many recently marketed 1675/16750/60/700/710 are being sold by (slightly unscrupulous) dealers on DJ Jubilee on 55s to maximise their profit !!

Originally Posted by springer

Paul, while you might be correct about there are more Jubilees on GMTs for sale now, what you do not mention is that if you really do some additional investigation on these bracelets, you'll see that many of those Jubilees are Datejust Jubilees on GMTs.

I think that the two of you are in agreement on this point. ;-)

[yojoe85]

Serial is 857xxxx

MK 1 Dial

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by springer

Paul, while you might be correct about there are more Jubilees on GMTs for sale now, what you do not mention is that if you really do some additional investigation on these bracelets, you'll see that many of those Jubilees are Datejust Jubilees on GMTs. Frankly, I see this all the time and would agree with you that many of these GMTs are offered for sale on Jubilee bracelets but that doesn't mean that they were all correct GMT Jubilees.

Also, you ask, "What is verified Rolex info" well, you can start with the bracelet info that I placed in this thread. As far as conjecture from all your sources, that is their opinion. Facts and documented sources have always worked well for me.

I would love to see you start a thread on these surveys with dealers that you mentioned in your last post.

John, I will off course include that.
The questions are part of trying to establish how and when the vintage mkt came about and where it's going in the next decade for a PhD - it will all be available, but tbh the questions are not suitable for here at moment, although I will kindly ask in confidence (from anyone happy to answer) demographic info (age/location/collection start/no.) at some point, to help see the pattern of change in the collector market and I'm logging total posts per day in forums and the switch in content/demographics/style/tastes/motivations in the myriad of social media outlets incl You Tube that are now prevelent.

This whole interest of mine started in the late 70s and the early 80s. I'd read US and Italian watch journals and attend Bonhams and Christie's etc and the investors would buy all the complications eg JCKs and the in-vogue BB's, rare Milgaus type stuff and odd rare Daytonas.... and at the end of the Auction the Auctioneer would have an 'off-catalogue' sale of unloved and cheap professional pieces (1675/5513/1016 etc) in a grubby back office...all the 'proper investors and collectors' had gone home at that point ! How things change, as Skeet/Ural show in auction results in 1997, the auction/collector mkt was developing well by then !!!!
Examples (for AD/Specialist ) asked btw just to help fill in gaps in knowledge on geographic and demographic info - just plucked a few from the 120 at random.
What % buyers local, did you service other markets.
Did you offer (in-house 3-12 mth) finance/what sold % via this,
Which decade did you first hear customers using a term like 'safe nest-egg or investment',
Did you have any women multi-collectors if so whom,
When did the BiColour demand start to decline and by what extent,
Which decade was the 40mm Professional considered both oversize/undersized.
Are you now seeing demand for oversize eg 42mm + dropping off and if so when did it start,
What was your average churn rate p.annun in each decade,
Did you discount and when and why and how much?
Did you buy back in and resell s/h in house - successful?
Did you have any relationships with used collector market in which way, and how did it work
When was the heydey of the 36mm Datejust in sales terms?
What was you largest seller per decade / Did Lady DJ feature.
What % of steel GMTs in 60/70s* were on jubilee and what % in 80/90s too.
What % did you sell Tudor and did you have X brand pollination with Rolex buyers lot/some/none
What was average age of a typical Rolex/Tudor buyer (and any change) per decade 60/70/80/90s
Did you have in-house WM and do you still now
etc etc etc....
* Average response (mean) 40% here compared to 10% 80/90s.

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by Woody

In answer to one of the OPs questions the “H” stands for homme…..which signifies the bracelet is the larger (or men’s version) of the jubilee bracelet (see Springer’s post). Hope you enjoy your 16760

Correct, and the D stands for 'damme' which is lady in french / smaller size

[yojoe85]

I managed to source a 93150 bracelet with a j2 stamping. Since my watch is a late 1984 serial would a 1985 bracelet be considered correct as well?

[TuRo]

Yes - Watches often came head only to AD, so fine for 80s circa up to say couple of years either side.
As if bracelet is dated before watch could be unsold bracelet shop stock married to watch, and likewise a couple of years after serial could be unsold watch married to recently arrived bracelet stock.
* Nb the serial dating and clasp dating are not gospel either, unless pre 74 clasp eg 3/71 IS 3rd QTR 71.

[springer]

Originally Posted by yojoe85

I managed to source a 93150 bracelet with a j2 stamping. Since my watch is a late 1984 serial would a 1985 bracelet be considered correct as well?

J code is considered a 1985 bracelet. Without a partial serial number for your GMT which you failed to give, a 1985 dated bracelet could be correct for a 1984 GMT.

Remember this dating charts are created by collectors and are not from Rolex. As you are aware, these dating lists can vary depending on who created the list. Based on my many years of Rolex ownership, the bracelet dates normally fall within a year or two of the accepted date of the watch.