Daytona 6263 Big Red Opinions

[KY..]

Hi all…
I just happen to know the seller of this Daytona Big Red 6263 with box & punched papers and have done business with them before.
I’m kind of interested in it but really wonder if it would make sense for me to work out a deal.
I got to see it in person yesterday and am curious what the 6263 connoisseurs/experts/collectors think about it?
I’ve included photo/video links that I have as well as the eBay sales link.
What I see is the bezel looks like a service bezel and maybe the pushers are as well.
Please share your thoughts on authenticity and value based on service parts presence or anything else you happen to see correct or incorrect…
Thanks.

All photos
https://imgur.com/a/dtYMnTD

Ebay link
https://www.ebay.com/itm/325535738384

[swish77]

Looks fine, although I'd want to make sure those scratches are on the crystal, not the dial, and note the tritium on the hands has some deterioration. Hour dots look good, with a little of the top of the 3 o'clock missing, which is very common. Case looks nice.

As mentioned, bezel is service, but with a 6.3 million serial, those pushers could be original. It's right around the time of the change in style. It also has a service crystal, not the original dome. That changes the look a lot, but you could have that changed if you wanted.

Mine is a 6.0 serial (below) and has a slightly more white/cream dial (less silver) based on the photo, which is to be expected for this range.

It's a big-ticket item, of course, so make sure there's a return policy just in case. It's crucial that the 727 movement is all correct too, so you'd want to have that inspected. I'd ask for a UV photo to check the tritium.

As for value for a 6263 full set nowadays, who knows, but definitely $100K-plus assuming all correct and in great shape.

Good luck!

[TuRo]

Agree with Aaron, Keith.

I don't see anything majorly wrong with it.

Dial is not perfect eg some discolouration and tarnishing to bevelled HR markers and what might be a bit of yellowing of dial in some photos around the HR markers eg 2 and 6 (though might just be photo).

Perhaps the outer concentric sub dials have faded a tad (and on one photo it's hands look all silver and tarnished too. Check that correct end of hand are off white).

Main hands are tarnished also and lume on them darkened and flaking out a bit and will depart at some point.

None of this is too bad though.

Check the end links are correct too for period (they are 571 at least, not 357s which are wrong) and that clasp is 6 mill/early 80s if poss. The crown is a two dot triplock too I note. Plexi is harder edged, flatter top service - likely post 2000 as A says.

I personally believe it is $15-18k (c 15-20%) over priced, given condition and that is it's only major demerit.

The valjoux 727 needs careful vetting mind against the eBay one,( it looks ok from cursive glance) as they are now £10k for a correct one... there is a link somewhere with all the subtle differences of 707 through to 727 mvts, with photos of mvts, I can't find it at moment though.

The inner caseback should be either 6265 or 6263 stamped which it is.

Rgds Paul

[KY..]

Thank you Aaron and Paul for your assessments on this one; and real nice one you have there yourself Aaron.
It’s definitely not an easy reference to speak on since they are not seen in the wild very often.
This is only the 3rd 4 digit Daytona I’ve seen and touched in person to date and I’m in my late 50’s.
The service parts do matter in evaluation, so I obviously must tread water carefully.
I do take heed to everything you’ve mentioned and will try to close the gaps so I can decide yea or nay on moving forward.
Here’re a few pics from the link I provided earlier that may help with some questions you or others may have.
Regardless, this is fun stuff at the end of the day trying to figuring out if the puzzle pieces fit.
Thanks Keith…

[Dan S]

I was offered one of these late last year and did a dive into prices. While dealers were certainly asking $100k, I found that average examples without papers had been selling in the $80k-$90k range at auction. I didn't find dozens, but I based this on something like 8-10 sales IIRC, mostly at the major auction houses. Unfortunately, I don't have the details in front of me at the moment.

[watch.hunter66]

The bezel is FAKE, it's an aftermarket MK4 like.

Please check the original graphics, especially 100 and 110 and dots.

N. 4: authentic mk4 service bezel from the book of S. Mazzariol and C. Pergola

[watch.hunter66]

Again, an authentic mk4 bezel for sale from Lunar Oyster. Both are different from the bezel of the 6263 posted here..

[swish77]

Yes, agree that the bezel looks different than the early service bezels. I'm nuts enough to own both, and I see the difference in the dots above 100 and 110 on the OP's example. I wonder if there are variations to 6263 service bezels, like many sports Rolexes.

Regardless, I'd definitely use the replaced bezel as a bargaining chip.

For comparison here's my 6263 showing a comparison between a service bezel and an original (the one on top).

[watch.hunter66]

Originally Posted by swish77

I wonder if there are variations to 6263 service bezels, like many sports Rolexes.

No, it's a cheap viet copy for sale on ebay and some sites between $150 and $300

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by swish77

Yes, agree that the bezel looks different than the early service bezels. I'm nuts enough to own both, and I see the difference in the dots above 100 and 110 on the OP's example. I wonder if there are variations to 6263 service bezels, like many sports Rolexes.

Regardless, I'd definitely use the replaced bezel as a bargaining chip.

For comparison here's my 6263 showing a comparison between a service bezel and an original (the one on top).

I wonder how many of these differences just boil down to the manufacturing tolerances back in the day…

Do we know if Rolex made their own bezels or if they subbed them out?

[Dan S]

Good catch on the bezel.

[watch.hunter66]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I wonder how many of these differences just boil down to the manufacturing tolerances back in the day…

Do we know if Rolex made their own bezels or if they subbed them out?

This bezel is a cheap aftermarket, made in Vietnam. Easy to find...

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by watch.hunter66

This bezel is a cheap aftermarket, made in Vietnam. Easy to find...

Which one ? The OP’s or Aaron’s @swish77?

Is my reasoning otherwise flawed thinking?

Do you know if Rolex made its own bezels during this time period?

Thank you

[watch.hunter66]

Both bezels. Rolex only produced one graphics for the service bezels, classified as a mark 4. There are no other variants.

[watch.hunter66]

Sorry my mistake. The OP's service bezel is fake, both bezels of swish77 are authentic a service / mk4 and a mk3.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by watch.hunter66

Sorry my mistake. The OP's service bezel is fake, both bezels of swish77 are authentic a service / mk4 and a mk3.

Thank you for clarifying! (Although I knew both of my bezels are good, of course).

Nice catch on the aftermarket bezel on the 6263 posted by the OP.

[watch.hunter66]

Originally Posted by swish77

Thank you for clarifying! (Although I knew both of my bezels are good, of course).

Nice catch on the aftermarket bezel on the 6263 posted by the OP.

Welcome

These bezels have been on sale for some time on well-known platforms for a few hundred dollars. Cheap, but decent quality.
Useful if you want to wear your Daytona while preserving your original bezel, rare, expensive and fragile. Or to change the look of the steel bezel. But they are fake.

A serious reseller should be able to recognize these bezels and should declare them for what they are, especially when the economic request is 100K

[swish77]

Originally Posted by watch.hunter66

A serious reseller should be able to recognize these bezels and should declare them for what they are, especially when the economic request is 100K

Agreed, but it's an old story. There are indeed serious sellers who make mistakes or intentional oversights. We seem to be getting more and more of them nowadays.

In this case, it's an Ebay listing, so who knows how much knowledge the seller has. And remember it's an aftermarket service bezel, not a copy of an MK1, 2 or 3 bezel, which is often easier to spot.

I'm actually surprised there's a market for fake service bezels for 6263s. I mean, if you're going to fake them, why not fake an original?

[KY..]

Originally Posted by watch.hunter66

The bezel is FAKE, it's an aftermarket MK4 like.

Please check the original graphics, especially 100 and 110 and dots.

N. 4: authentic mk4 service bezel from the book of S. Mazzariol and C. Pergola

Well well well, this pretty much sucks!!! Thank you for this information..

I was starting to feel more comfortable with pursuing a deal thinking it had a clean service bezel but still authentic.
If the bezel is indeed a fake then that opens a huge can of worms that I really don’t want to deal with unless it is well worth my while.
The watch does look mostly authentic, but I’d have to be able to get it a whole heck of a lot cheaper.
And I just don’t see that happening.

I will share this thread and the VRF thread with the seller and see how they feel about it.
I honestly do not believe they have any idea the bezel is a service bezel, much less a fake service bezel.
Go figure.
Like Aaron said, why make a fake 6263 service bezel?
Geez!

Thank you everyone for your input on this one.
As I mentioned before, this stuff is fun even though I’m a bit disappointed at the potential findings.

Regards Keith…

[watch.hunter66]

For some years now it has been possible to purchase aftermarket bezels with graphics of all four marks. It was discussed on a well-known Italian forum in which the comparison was made between the original and aftermarket bezels, to highlight the differences.

The reason why a seller prefer to mount an aftermarket service on such a watch instead of an aftermarket bezel with the right graphics, I think because the aftermarket mark4 bezels are the ones closest to the originals. UPH and the numbers are perfect and well printed. You can tell they're false only by looking at the dot alignment and a few other details like the backside, but the rest is very convincing.

Secondly, mark4 are bezels of minor collectors' interest and can be bought at significantly lower price compared to the others. I think that the reseller is in good faith, but when selling these items you have to be very experienced.

I also have doubts about the pushers. They should be examined live. Even the pushers are replicated and sold as aftermarket. Fake P300s are easy to recognize, but P301s and P302s need to be looked at carefully.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by watch.hunter66

For some years now it has been possible to purchase aftermarket bezels with graphics of all four marks. It was discussed on a well-known Italian forum in which the comparison was made between the original and aftermarket bezels, to highlight the differences.

The reason why a seller prefer to mount an aftermarket service on such a watch instead of an aftermarket bezel with the right graphics, I think because the aftermarket mark4 bezels are the ones closest to the originals. UPH and the numbers are perfect and well printed. You can tell they're false only by looking at the dot alignment and a few other details like the backside, but the rest is very convincing.

Secondly, mark4 are bezels of minor collectors' interest and can be bought at significantly lower price compared to the others. I think that the reseller is in good faith, but when selling these items you have to be very experienced.

I also have doubts about the pushers. They should be examined live. Even the pushers are replicated and sold as aftermarket. Fake P300s are easy to recognize, but P301s and P302s need to be looked at carefully.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge

[swish77]

Originally Posted by KY..

Well well well, this pretty much sucks!!! Thank you for this information..

I was starting to feel more comfortable with pursuing a deal thinking it had a clean service bezel but still authentic.
If the bezel is indeed a fake then that opens a huge can of worms that I really don’t want to deal with unless it is well worth my while.
The watch does look mostly authentic, but I’d have to be able to get it a whole heck of a lot cheaper.
And I just don’t see that happening.

I will share this thread and the VRF thread with the seller and see how they feel about it.
I honestly do not believe they have any idea the bezel is a service bezel, much less a fake service bezel.
Go figure.
Like Aaron said, why make a fake 6263 service bezel?
Geez!

Thank you everyone for your input on this one.
As I mentioned before, this stuff is fun even though I’m a bit disappointed at the potential findings.

Regards Keith…

Any doubts, walk away. In general, a bad bezel alone doesn't necessarily need to be a deal-breaker, but the stakes are very high here. You don't see many full sets like this come up for sale, but unless you could have this watch fully examined inside and out, and fully authenticated before a purchase, it's probably not worth the risk.

If you're willing to spend $100K-plus to get a Big Red, there are other reputable dealers out there who can try to get you one with no (or at least smaller) risks.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by swish77

Any doubts, walk away. In general, a bad bezel alone doesn't necessarily need to be a deal-breaker, but the stakes are very high here. You don't see many full sets like this come up for sale, but unless you could have this watch fully examined inside and out, and fully authenticated before a purchase, it's probably not worth the risk.

If you're willing to spend $100K-plus to get a Big Red, there are other reputable dealers out there who can try to get you one with no (or at least smaller) risks.

I'm still going with our earlier prognosis, that the insert is a pukka Rolex item, not fake.

[rootbeer7]

thank you to everyone for such an informative thread. It's becoming rather unusual!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by TuRo

I'm still going with our earlier prognosis, that the insert is a pukka Rolex item, not fake.

How do you explain the slight differences in the dot location above the 100 and 110 when compared to known legit service bezels? Just a slight variation like many Rolex bezels?

When I obsessed over these before buying my 6263, my focus was on the MK2s and MK3s, not the service bezels, because after all, who would bother faking a service bezel? (Rhetorical question). However, I do see slight differences compared to my service bezel.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by swish77

How do you explain the slight differences in the dot location above the 100 and 110 when compared to known legit service bezels? Just a slight variation like many Rolex bezels?

When I obsessed over these before buying my 6263, my focus was on the MK2s and MK3s, not the service bezels, because after all, who would bother faking a service bezel? (Rhetorical question). However, I do see slight differences compared to my service bezel.

Tbh yes - I think it’s cleared up over on vrf now.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Tbh yes - I think it’s cleared up over on vrf now.

Link?

This is a very interesting thread.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Link?

This is a very interesting thread.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...4.html#p620123

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by TuRo

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...4.html#p620123

Thank you very much

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[KY..]

Originally Posted by TuRo

I'm still going with our earlier prognosis, that the insert is a pukka Rolex item, not fake.

It has been a pleasure trying to fit the puzzle together for this iconic little watch.
And I have to admit, it’s also been a bit of a mental roller coaster as well.
I know, I know; not life threatening or anything, so clearly a first world problem.
Perspective does matter and nothing is taken for granted…

At the end of the day no stone should be left unturned when looking to buy vintage, unless you are willing to accept the consequences.
I have no issue with pursuing this watch to make a deal if it has some service parts.
But if it actually had fake parts like what was described earlier, the trust gets lost in the item and it’s history.

As I had mentioned I would do, yesterday I informed the seller of the 2 threads on TRF and VRF.
I told them the bezel is at best a service bezel, and possibly an aftermarket/fake bezel.
I also told them the pushers are in question too.
BTW: I had told them ahead of time I would post the watch to get feedback.
I asked them to check out the threads, and that I would still be willing to make a deal but with a new qualifier. (specifically based on a service bezel, not a fake bezel or fake pushers).
So a deal would have to factor in a bezel replacement regardless.

I genuinely appreciate the information about the fake service bezels.
That’s a head scratcher to me and makes me wonder why do that on such an expensive watch when a genuine service bezel doesn’t cost that much more than the fake bezel?

But thankfully, several experienced connoisseurs came to the rescue to help fit the puzzle together.
I’m convinced the watch is not perfect, but is authentic enough with factory original & factory service parts.

Now we shall see if it works out.
At a minimum, I’ve learned quite a bit more.
And the seller’s watch obviously gets free publicity and advertisement.

Thanks everyone for your participation and expertise.
Fun discussion!!!

…Keith…