Authorized Dealers vs. Private Dealers: Where to Buy Vintage Rolexes?

[AllGoldRollie]

Hello everyone. This is my first post, so please be patient with me. I have looked around this forum for answers to my question and did not find what I was looking for yet. That's why I'm starting a new thread.

I have a few non-vintage watches currently and now I'm looking to start dipping my feet in the vintage waters. I'm looking to get a classic vintage Rolex day-date, yellow gold presidential, 36mm. This will be a watch I want to wear often. I've been researching the references and places to buy them. Which brings me to my main question: where is the best place to buy a vintage Rolex? From an authorized dealer like London Jewelers or Tourneau, or from a private party like the ones listed in the vintage Rolex dealers thread, (Jed, Erik Ku, Mike Wood, etc.)?

I realize this is a loaded question and the answers may depend on what the purchaser's criteria for a "good purchase" maybe. That being said, this is my criteria:

Authentic - Meaning “Catalogue style”, all parts are authentic manufacturer’s parts, installed by an authorized technician, and all parts were originally shown in the manufacturer's catalog when the watch was originally released.

Working - The watch should be in good mechanical condition, recently serviced by either the manufacturer or by an authorized technician, and fully inspected and certified with documentation.

Warranted and/or refundable - A warranty or refund policy should be available in case any of the above is found to not be true within at least two weeks to up to two years, the seller will take responsibility to either refund the original purchase price or repair the watch via an authorized technician to make the watch authentic and working again. I would want to have the watch inspected by an actual Rolex watchmaker to verify it's authenticity, and have the option to send the watch back.

Re-sellable - The initial price should not be too high so that if the watch is sold a few years or several years later I won't lose money. The first two criteria need to be met for re-sell purposes also.

My thinking is there are several advantages in buying from an authorized dealer, which are: 1) They can check the watch for authenticity, including inspection papers, 2) They can get the watch into good working order using authorized technicians, 3) They offer a year to a two-year warranty in case the watch is found to be in-authentic or stops working under normal conditions. It seems the disadvantage of buying from an authorized dealer is a premium price and potentially supporting a business with poor customer service, questionable business practices, and poor consultancy practices. I would normally want to support smaller businesses, but in this case, since so much money is at stake I'm torn.

I would love to hear everyone's expert advice since I'm pretty new to all of this. Thanks in advance.

[springer]

Most authorized Rolex dealers do not sell pre-owned watches - that is, if you are referring to Rolex authorized dealers. If you are looking to find a pre-owned Day-Date and stumble upon a Rolex dealer that has one, I would be surprised if you would find an original all-correct vintage 1803 Day-Date at an authorized dealer. Dealers are in the business of selling new Rolex, and those that do take trade-ins are not in the business of restoring them back to original specifications. Many of these watches will have replaced dials, hands, bracelets and/or other replacement parts that detract from the value of the watch which doesn't sound like what you are looking for.

I would recommend that you find a reputable dealer or private collector that deals with vintage Rolex.

[iliketime]

Another avenue to consider is the auction houses and I don't mean ebay. I am referring to Phillips or Christie's for example who have a considerable in house staff that vets the watches that go on the block. But of course, auction houses will mean considerable amount extra in terms of funds.

[colpol]

Got one of the best in your city / Andrew Shear

[AJMarcus]

You’ll take a bath if you buy anything vintage from an AD. They sometimes seem to believe vintage buyers are uninformed because I’ve seen some crazy high prices in vintage from ADs. And often the pieces are refdialed, over polished, and relumed. Look elsewhere.

[zapokee]

HQ Milton and Jacek at Tropical Watches always stand behind their pieces. They're USA-based, too.

You might need to relax your criteria a little, though - it's a trade-off in the vintage world. You'd probably struggle to find a dealer who will offer a two-year warranty on a vintage piece.

Even with appropriate servicing, things can always happen with watches that are many decades old. Lume falls out, movement parts break, crowns come off, etc. Stuff WILL go wrong sooner or later. Accepting this is part of enjoying vintage.

[Dan S]

I think you would be better off forgetting about the "re-sellable" criterion. If you pay a small premium to buy from a well-known reputable seller/dealer (which is a good idea if you're not an expert), the odds are that you will have to accept a modest loss if you choose to sell in a few years, especially considering selling fees. The only way to guarantee that you won't lose money is to get a great bargain, which you can only do consistently if you're a great hunter and very knowledgeable.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I think you would be better off forgetting about the "re-sellable" criterion. If you pay a small premium to buy from a well-known reputable seller/dealer (which is a good idea if you're not an expert), the odds are that you will have to accept a modest loss if you choose to sell in a few years, especially considering selling fees. The only way to guarantee that you won't lose money is to get a great bargain, which you can only do consistently if you're a great hunter and very knowledgeable.

Fair point, D. I always buy with the expectation of losing a bit over the period of ownership, but have often been pleasantly surprised.

Think of any loss as a "rental" fee for being allowed to look after an awesome vintage piece for as long as you have it. If you own it for three years and lose 1,000 bucks when you sell it, you've paid only a couple of dollars a day for it. You can't even get a Starbucks for that, and the enjoyment you get from it is immense.

But with vintage Rolex, more often than not you'll break even (zero rent) or even make a profit (being paid to own the watch).

[motoikkyu]

I've been buying watches from a local dealer for over 20 years. One day, I'm in his shop and there's a newbie asking questions. We both love newbies, we've given our lives to this madness and it's fun to get someone else infected. But this guy, I guess from some slanted internet exposure, is just going on and on about "Can you say that all these parts are absolutely original to this watch?" And we're snickering a little because: a) that's not a reasonable question for estate or 2-3 owner timepieces; and b) does it really matter if your mainspring was replaced when it broke? Would you rather have a watch, or a really tiny, all-original, paperweight? Don't lose the forest for the trees. A nicely maintained and well-running vintage watch is an awesome thing, even if some of the parts were made a year earlier or a few years later. Again, not trying to offend ANYONE, this is an OPINION ONLY.

Yeah, your dial, your case and bezel and movement all have to be original for any kind of value. But when the brakes wear out on your Corvette, does it really have to be Chevrolet brake-pads from the original year of manufacture to keep the value?

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Fair point, D. I always buy with the expectation of losing a bit over the period of ownership, but have often been pleasantly surprised.

Think of any loss as a "rental" fee for being allowed to look after an awesome vintage piece for as long as you have it. If you own it for three years and lose 1,000 bucks when you sell it, you've paid only a couple of dollars a day for it. You can't even get a Starbucks for that, and the enjoyment you get from it is immense.

But with vintage Rolex, more often than not you'll break even (zero rent) or even make a profit (being paid to own the watch).

I agree, I'm not in it for the money, and if I take a small loss after enjoying a watch for several years, I'm ok with that. Up until recently, we have often been profiting on resale, even after fees, etc., but it's not so clear that someone buying now will be so lucky, so I just wanted to temper the OP's expectations a bit.

[offrdmania]

Most authorized dealers dont sell vintage but Fourtane in California does. They have nice pieces but you will pay a premium for them.

https://www.fourtane.com/product-cat...vintage-rolex/

[scooba]

Originally Posted by colpol

Got one of the best in your city / Andrew Shear

Defo Andrew Shear !

[1665fan]

Knowledge is KING no matter where you buy

[AllGoldRollie]

Thank you all for the great advice. To recap, here are some of the things I learned from this thread:

- ADs are usually overpriced and could be looking to turn around sub-optimal and/or incorrect pieces.
- Relax on the return criteria, especially if the vintage dealer will stand behind their sale.
- Expect to take at least a moderate loss when reselling the piece.

At this point, I've contacted a few trusted vintage dealers. I explained what I'm looking for and, fingers crossed, they'll get back to me sometime soon with some good options. Thanks again.

[dknt88]

The motto we try to subscribe to around here (especially applicable to vintage) is "buy the seller, not the watch"

[1watch]

I would recommend buying the seller AND the watch. Especially in vintage you need to have a third party expert examine it during a typical inspection period. Not all dealers accurately disclose condition. Vintage Rolex is a minefield for a novice and easy to get a later bad surprise if you don’t do proper diligence.


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[zapokee]

Originally Posted by AllGoldRollie

At this point, I've contacted a few trusted vintage dealers. I explained what I'm looking for and, fingers crossed, they'll get back to me sometime soon with some good options.

I've found this doesn't happen. Dealers just post their stuff online, and it's first-come-first-served. They don't tend to keep a list like "Joe Bloggs wants a 1680. Contact him as soon as one comes in." You'll be waiting a long time if you take that approach, and you might only be offered stuff that nobody else wants.

Be proactive. Keep checking trusted dealers' websites/Instagrams and contact them yourself as soon as you see something interesting.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by zapokee

I've found this doesn't happen. Dealers just post their stuff online, and it's first-come-first-served. They don't tend to keep a list like "Joe Bloggs wants a 1680. Contact him as soon as one comes in." You'll be waiting a long time if you take that approach, and you might only be offered stuff that nobody else wants.

Be proactive. Keep checking trusted dealers' websites/Instagrams and contact them yourself as soon as you see something interesting.

And if they do reach out to a potential buyer before posting the watch, you can guarantee it's a buyer with whom they have a long relationship, not a newbie.

[dknt88]

Originally Posted by 1watch

I would recommend buying the seller AND the watch. Especially in vintage you need to have a third party expert examine it during a typical inspection period. Not all dealers accurately disclose condition. Vintage Rolex is a minefield for a novice and easy to get a later bad surprise if you don’t do proper diligence.


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It's simply a general mantra that's been around for a long time and widely quoted/repeated over the years by folks within the overall watch community.

And respectfully I think your comment makes my point. The phrase means that if one buys (esp pertaining to vintage) from someone (dealer or private seller) who is already considered an expert/knowledgeable/credible, it usually minimizes or even eliminates the need to go through the vetting process (via 3rd party) on your end, thus making it more likely that what you're getting is authentic. It's not a perfect science nor is it always possible to buy from someone you already know and trust, but I feel its a good watch buying philosophy to live by when possible ..

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by 1watch

I would recommend buying the seller AND the watch. Especially in vintage you need to have a third party expert examine it during a typical inspection period. Not all dealers accurately disclose condition. Vintage Rolex is a minefield for a novice and easy to get a later bad surprise if you don’t do proper diligence.


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Well said....

[Toronto Soup King]

My two cents is, spend a little extra to get a good example from a trusted dealer, and sellers on this very forum are probably the best bet for that. But "all original"...the 1803 is an old watch now, and who cares if the C-clip on the rotor is original or a service replacement?

I'm very happy with mine - bought off HQ for not too much money and then restored and new dial/hands/crown from RSC - but the museums aren't going to be sending reps to my estate sale to bid on my watches. I buy them for me to wear round the house and down the pub, a different proposition from some collectors here, who are buying and selling rather more rarified pieces, often rare or unique and always very expensive, and moving in different circles.

Some of the watches I see here, I wouldn't dare wear, too delicate. If you are similarly apprehensive, don't go looking for a perfect example you'd dread damaging. If I fall off my bike today and smash my watch I'd be very annoyed at the cost to repair, but nothing unique would be lost. I can live with that sort of risk. But not if I were wearing a Bao Dai or something. Anyway good luck!

[F15GorDe]

Originally Posted by Toronto Soup King

My two cents is, spend a little extra to get a good example from a trusted dealer, and sellers on this very forum are probably the best bet for that. But "all original"...the 1803 is an old watch now, and who cares if the C-clip on the rotor is original or a service replacement?

I'm very happy with mine - bought off HQ for not too much money and then restored and new dial/hands/crown from RSC - but the museums aren't going to be sending reps to my estate sale to bid on my watches. I buy them for me to wear round the house and down the pub, a different proposition from some collectors here, who are buying and selling rather more rarified pieces, often rare or unique and always very expensive, and moving in different circles.



Some of the watches I see here, I wouldn't dare wear, too delicate. If you are similarly apprehensive, don't go looking for a perfect example you'd dread damaging. If I fall off my bike today and smash my watch I'd be very annoyed at the cost to repair, but nothing unique would be lost. I can live with that sort of risk. But not if I were wearing a Bao Dai or something. Anyway good luck!

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject.

[Jokrakow]

I've bought a couple models from Jacek who is now at Tropical Watch and used to be at HQ Milton. He is a great guy and very trustworthy. Adam at Menta is also a great source. Jacek is SF based and Adam Miami.

[vcnyls]

I second Andrew Shear or Jacek. Had good experiences with Govberg/WatchBox in Philly too