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Old 30 June 2014, 03:42 AM   #1
ra's ag
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Buying a used PP from AD but without papers?

Lately the Nautilus has been on my mind. I've owned many great brands over the years but never Patek. The other day I stopped by a local rolex/ patek AD and they had a 2010 5711 in blue in the pre-owned section. The price was as good as I've seen it anywhere. However the watch only came with the box, no papers. The salesman tried to convince me that not having papers was fine but having owned and later sold many watches, I don't agree.

What do you think? Would you take a good deal on the 5711 from a Patek AD if there wasn't any papers? How important are those papers when getting the watch serviced or even selling the watch later?
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Old 30 June 2014, 03:46 AM   #2
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For me no Cert no buy so clearly there are many like me and your pool of buyers would be much smaller if you had to sell. I also buy brand new from AD when it comes to Patek. Some people might not care but many do.
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Old 30 June 2014, 04:08 AM   #3
gtbguy
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For me no Cert no buy so clearly there are many like me and your pool of buyers would be much smaller if you had to sell. I also buy brand new from AD when it comes to Patek. Some people might not care but many do.
I totally agree. For me I only buy high end watches NEW from the AD. I've never bought used, I only think about it but when it comes down to buying I go with new.
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Old 30 June 2014, 04:08 AM   #4
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Actually I don't buy watches (that are in production) second hand but thats a personal preference. However, if I did decide to buy second hand, I wouldn't buy a Patek or any watch without B&P.
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Old 30 June 2014, 04:20 AM   #5
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I doubt someone buys a modern PP w/o papers except the price is extremly good .PP never issue duplicate of the Certificate however you can get the Extract after 5years the date of first time sold.I assume in your case the price wasn t so good.
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Old 30 June 2014, 04:47 AM   #6
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No way. My name has to go on CoO, unless vintage piece.
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Old 30 June 2014, 04:51 AM   #7
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My ad has second hand patek in some times; but all with papers.
No papers, no watch in my book.
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Old 30 June 2014, 07:21 AM   #8
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I bought a 5167 recently from my AD that I have used for many years.
On this occasion, it came with a box, but no papers. The watch, before I bought it, was fully serviced & the case slightly polished by Patek Philippe UK.
The watch was originally purchased by the last owner from a USA AD.

My AD has guaranteed, that once the watch reaches its 5 yrs anniversary, later this year, that they will arrange for the archive certificate to be issued.

So, to answer your question, as long as you know/trust the dealer and they can arrange for the archives certificate to be issued. Then I wouldn't worry to much about it.
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Old 30 June 2014, 07:28 AM   #9
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If money is tight then I would go for it but remembering that if you need to sell it you will have to offer a lower price as you are not a dealer, so resale may be a hassle.
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Old 30 June 2014, 07:55 AM   #10
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It would have to be such a great deal that papers wouldnt even matter for me to consider...

What's going rate complete/mint? Close to 20? I'd consider <15.
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Old 30 June 2014, 08:36 AM   #11
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I concur no papers no dice
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Old 30 June 2014, 08:54 AM   #12
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Can't you get a copy of the papers from the Patek archive?
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Old 30 June 2014, 08:56 AM   #13
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I would not buy from Hamra. Despite what Rob probably told you having original certs is important and one of the reasons I did not buy that watch from them along time ago :)
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Old 30 June 2014, 12:37 PM   #14
ra's ag
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Quote:
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I would not buy from Hamra. Despite what Rob probably told you having original certs is important and one of the reasons I did not buy that watch from them along time ago :)
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Old 30 June 2014, 09:04 AM   #15
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If I trusted/had positive experience with the AD, priced at 35% or more off MSRP, I'd buy it and send it in for Patek service. Alternatively, if the AD was willing to send it for Patek service on his dime and the price was at least 30% off retail I'd do it too, but that's just me and how I acquire watches . . .
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Old 30 June 2014, 10:01 AM   #16
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I've you're concerned about the resale value, lack of papers definitely decreases the value. I've passed on a few PP deals because the watch didm;t come with papers. There are archival papers, but they're not the same in my opinion.
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Old 30 June 2014, 10:07 AM   #17
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IMO papers are a must. I actually prefer used. I don't see the point in paying the premium for something that drops in value the second you walk out the door. A few years down the road it doesn't matter whose name is on the papers, and Patek puts you in the archives whether your name is on the papers or not. I know this first hand from a 5170J I registered in the archives even though my name wasn't on the papers, plus the watch was only two or three years old at the time...
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Old 30 June 2014, 10:56 AM   #18
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Punt if no papers
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Old 30 June 2014, 11:30 AM   #19
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Why are the Archive papers from PP not the same or as good as the original CoO? Isn't it all generated by the manufacturer?
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Old 30 June 2014, 11:44 AM   #20
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If you know you will definitely not be flipping it then by all means go ahead if the price is properly adjusted.
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Old 30 June 2014, 11:45 AM   #21
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No matter what brand I like having a complete set...New or pre-loved
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Old 30 June 2014, 12:44 PM   #22
ra's ag
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I know that many people don't like to do the second hand purchase on high end watches but in my case I need to. There are very few watches that keep my interest after the first few months, and so I'm a big flipper. I can't afford the loss of buying new with how often I swap.
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Old 30 June 2014, 01:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ra's ag View Post
I know that many people don't like to do the second hand purchase on high end watches but in my case I need to. There are very few watches that keep my interest after the first few months, and so I'm a big flipper. I can't afford the loss of buying new with how often I swap.
In that case I'd look for a complete set, if/when you flip it will make it much easier to do so.
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Old 30 June 2014, 01:35 PM   #24
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I'd never buy a piece without the papers.
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Old 30 June 2014, 01:46 PM   #25
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Papers aren't a deal killer for me as long as the price is right. Shave at least 10-15% for no papers. if the deal is right go for it, that way you won't be hit on the back side if you decide to sell.
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Old 30 June 2014, 02:33 PM   #26
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The AD can get a certificate for the watch.
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Old 30 June 2014, 05:23 PM   #27
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^he can 't.
PP never issue duplicate of the certificate of origin you can obtain the extract of archives 5years after the watch sold first time.
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Old 1 July 2014, 12:45 AM   #28
gqmagic
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I bought an Annual calendar, had my name on the cert, changed my mind, sent it back. The AD said no worries he could get another cert for the next buyer.

I'm basing my "AD can get a cert" comment on this experience of mine.

Your AD may operate differently
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Old 1 July 2014, 01:33 AM   #29
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As been mentioned

I dont do it. All depends on the purchase price. I would want at least 40-50 off without docs/papers. If you go to sell it, the buyer will want papers unless you sell on the cheap. If you never sell it, then it doesnt much matter just get a sharp sharp price.
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Old 1 July 2014, 02:19 AM   #30
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No deal
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