Guys...Am I being Scammed on PayPal? Anyone with Dispute Experience Advice???

[westsiderkg]

Well, after 12+ years and hundreds of good transactions I guess its bound to happen sooner or later.

Here is the short of it. I sold a swiss watch to a relative newbie on the forum. They paid me via paypal. Received the watch a month ago and left me good feedback sharing their pleasure with a good transaction and quick fulfillment on my part.

Fast forward a month to yesterday. I get a email out of the blue stating they wanted to return the watch since it made a rotor noise.

I explained kindly it was a ETA 7750 movement and those rotors are all noisy by design. I currently own 3 and even offered to send a video of my watches, in addition to sharing many threads on the subject.

From there I also asked them to send me a video of the "noise". The buyer would not.

I also said they could send the watch to my master watchmaker and I would have them look at it, at my cost, on their behalf. The buyer would not.

I asked for any photos showing "damage" if possible. The buyer would not.

Each time I presensted what I thought to be a very generous option, or a reasonable solution, the buyer would not work with me.

I should state at this point the watch sold was sold in 100% working order (LNIB condition) and the "noisy sound" was 100% consistent with all my other ETA watches regardless of the buyers "opinions" when it left my possession last month. Furthermore, none of my ads state returns are acceptable. However, I am a 100% good guy thru and thru and if the buyuer would have received the item, within a reasonable time of 1-3 days, and contacted me with a genuine concern I would have very much felt it was legitimate and not buyers remorse as I feel it is being contact a month after the sale, and I would have tried to do something for them in good faith (i.e. return w/o question).

So...from here I stated that if they really wanted to return it, since it appeared there was no other logical reason to me other than buyers remorse, I would do for a reasonable industry standard 20% restocking fee. Again, I am not a dealer just a lovign WIS that does not have funds on hand and I would have to dip into my savings to get this unexpected watch back to make the buyer happy, then resell on my own time / dime.

The seller again refused and wanted a full refund, beginning to threaten me at this point with paypal claims and poor feedback coming on the forums. Again, I took the high road, asked them why on earth they would do this, and gave them my phone # and asked them to call me so we could amicably talk through this as adults. No calls, just more threatening PMs from the buyer.

I then decided to cut my losses and just ask them to return the watch and upon receipt I would refund them in full.

This is where I am starting to feel scammed if you will.

From here the buyer stated they would not return my watch until I paid their (ransom) refund first since they didnt trust me. I explained they could send it signature confirmation, send to my office (a 100% legitimate business), to my independent 3rd party watchmaker who could hold it until such time as payment is released, they could come to Pittsburgh and meet me face to face, heck I even said meet me at my local Police station since there is a exchange station there! None of these options sufficed for the buyer and this is despite MY VERY hard work to obtain 12 years of 100% ebay transactions and numerous forum friends and good feedback. In other words, this person has zero reason not to trust me and all they continually stated was they, "just didn't want the watch."

Sigh....I feel like I am getting scammed now. In all my fortunate years I have never, as a seller, had a paypal claim. Reading horror stories online are getting me very nervous too!

Paypal immediately pulled the funds from my account w/o any input from me, the seller. The only option I saw was to request the buyer return the item for a full refund and input tracking, which I did.

However, it appears the buyer returning it in paypal is a "option" for the buyer to solely agree to or not agree to. In other words, how can it not be a buyer mandate to return my goods before they receive a refund? Am I reading this correctly? How can that be!

My ultimate fear is 2 things:

1. The buyer doesn't agree to return the watch, keeps the watch, and paypal closes the claim in their favor since they claim, "the watch was damaged".
2. The buyer agrees to return the watch, puts a mickey mouse $1 watch in a box and return mails it to me, and paypal says the buyer returned the goods and issues a refund w/o fruther question based on tracking alone.


GUYS...Do I have any protection as a seller??? I hope this is not a valuable life lesson here. If so, I will only be doing face to face transactions in the future or bank wire.

[edweather]

Very sorry for your experience. It doesn't make sense that paypal can refund the buyer without you receiving the watch first. The buyer would have no reason to distrust you for the refund, as paypal could easily issue the refund as soon as the return tracking shows delivered. Even in ebay, that's the policy. In ebay if you had 30 day return policy, and the buyer tried a return after the 30 days, they would side with you. That recently happened to me, and they sided in my favor. Maybe someone could cut and paste the paypal protocol on this, that explains how someone can get an instant refund after 30 days, by crying foul. This is not the first time I've heard of this paypal nonsense. Maybe you could get some kind of explanation on the Paypal Community Forum.

[westsiderkg]

So the temporary good news is I just got off the phone with PayPal and the credited back my account temporarily. They also stated in such instances the claimant has to either prove via a 3rd party, the watch is faulty or return it with tracking. Why on principle they can still return something like this after 30 days is beyond me since I'm not Costco, lol.

The bad news is the buyer still is refusing to return the item until I first pay their ransom fee....and I doubt in such case they would return anything less perhaps a empty box.

I sure hope PayPal sees thru this buyers scam attempt!!!

[Knappo 1307]

Who's the buyer, will be good to add this A$$hole to the "no sell" on peoples ebay accts?

[Baco Noir]

Originally Posted by westsiderkg

So the temporary good news is I just got off the phone with PayPal and the credited back my account temporarily. They also stated in such instances the claimant has to either prove via a 3rd party, the watch is faulty or return it with tracking. Why on principle they can still return something like this after 30 days is beyond me since I'm not Costco, lol.

The bad news is the buyer still is refusing to return the item until I first pay their ransom fee....and I doubt in such case they would return anything less perhaps a empty box.

I sure hope PayPal sees thru this buyers scam attempt!!!

It's why I don't use Paypal on anything of value that I can't afford to lose the money on. PP allows up to 6 months for returns. I recently saw a thread on another forum where the buyer said 5 1/2 months later that the used watch was not working right and wanted a refund. PP sided with the buyer!

I hope this works out for you.

[usling15]

Very suspect that the buyer is so adamant that you not see the watch before he gets money. I think you have to stick to your guns on this. I hope this works out for you. Should you ID this person ?

[edweather]

OK, that is good news. You have the $, and they have the watch. Hope it stays that way. Please keep us posted. Yeah, that 6 month return policy is a joke.

[westsiderkg]

Originally Posted by Baco Noir

It's why I don't use Paypal on anything of value that I can't afford to lose the money on. PP allows up to 6 months for returns. I recently saw a thread on another forum where the buyer said 5 1/2 months later that the used watch was not working right and wanted a refund. PP sided with the buyer!

I hope this works out for you.

Wow I had no idea this was their policy!!!

IDK at this point really as long as I get the watch back in its original condition.

Looks like I'm done with pp for watches going forward.

[usling15]

Is there anyway the returned package can be opened in front of witnesses to corroborate it is the same watch ?

[westsiderkg]

Originally Posted by usling15

Is there anyway the returned package can be opened in front of witnesses to corroborate it is the same watch ?

Good question. Does anyone know? I'm going to film it...that's if I get anything in the mail, but at this point I doubt I'll get a package. Not sure what good filming will do anyway unless I want to travel across the u.s. for small claims court.

[Knappo 1307]

Who's the buyer? This thread is useless without a name..

[westsiderkg]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Who's the buyer? This thread is useless without a name..

In all fairness let me get closure and I'll post details.

Perhaps you have experience in such matters, but I believe the prudent thing is to wait until pp closes this before I post their name given the small chance I'll get the watch back. thanks for your patience and understanding.

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by westsiderkg

In all fairness let me get closure and I'll post details.

Perhaps you have experience in such matters, but I believe the prudent thing is to wait until pp closes this before I post their name given the small chance I'll get the watch back. thanks for your patience and understanding.

While other people could possibly get scammed by this buyer? The damage has already been done by this buyer regardless of the outcome from PP, according to your own story. Watch was in perfect condition, as per you, and now 1 month later he wants his money back, but won't send the watch back or abide by the rules of PP. Sounds like a bad buyer, regardless of what happens. Anyway, best of luck....

[westsiderkg]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

While other people could possibly get scammed by this buyer? The damage has already been done by this buyer regardless of the outcome from PP, according to your own story. Watch was in perfect condition, as per you, and now 1 month later he wants his money back, but won't send the watch back or abide by the rules of PP. Sounds like a bad buyer, regardless of what happens. Anyway, best of luck....

Good thoughts and tks...I just want to tread lightly here since I have no seller claims experience and this is a learning curve for me. I'll be sure to follow up as soon as possible to help others!

[Bxtek]

You're a good guy to even consider working with this jerk of a buyer. I wouldn't offer to do anything since its been a whole month later since the transaction was completed. If it was immediately after he received it, I can understand and I would work with them at that point. But a whole month later? No way! Plus, he was obviously very happy at that point since he left you positive feedback. If the rotor noise bothered him, he would have said something much earlier than 1 month later!

I am thinking that he's been either talking to someone, or reading online scams and how they work. Now he feels he can probably get your watch for free with this info? He might be planning to pull something......either no watch, a cheap watch or a fake watch in the package he returns to you. You obviously already have this feeling too. I would personally try to stand your ground and not even offer a refund. Too much time has passed. As you mentioned, you're not Costco!

[theloxmyth]

Double Yoi!

Along for this bumpy ride, if yunz got room for me?!

[Bxtek]

Would you be able to pull the money out of your PayPal? That way there is no money for them to "take back"? I'm pretty sure that they would not be able to pull it out of your connected bank account or credit card, but delete those as well just to be safe? I don't leave a balance in my PayPal account anymore for reasons exactly like this.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

While other people could possibly get scammed by this buyer? The damage has already been done by this buyer regardless of the outcome from PP, according to your own story. Watch was in perfect condition, as per you, and now 1 month later he wants his money back, but won't send the watch back or abide by the rules of PP. Sounds like a bad buyer, regardless of what happens. Anyway, best of luck....

Originally Posted by westsiderkg

Good thoughts and tks...I just want to tread lightly here since I have no seller claims experience and this is a learning curve for me. I'll be sure to follow up as soon as possible to help others!

I'm with Jason on naming the buyer. This could drag out for months and others could be duped by this buyer while you wait for an outcome. He's already done the dirty work with PP that harms you. I don't see how protecting him benefits you or the forum.

[usling15]

I have no money in my PayPal. Payments are taken out of my bank account, which is attached to my credit card. I think you would have to cancel both. But, I’m not sure what PayPal rules are. Might this go against our legal agreements with PayPal ?

[junamuan]

Naming the buyer may do little harm as it's easy to create new account. Pretty sure the buyer TRF account does not have that many posts as he/she seems has intention to scam from the story in this thread.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by Bxtek

I'm pretty sure that they would not be able to pull it out of your connected bank account or credit card, but delete those as well just to be safe?

Not true. They can and will freeze funds in the connected accounts.

[CorradoBrit]

OP is this the watch in question?
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=643264

[CorradoBrit]

My experience with the Valjoux 7750 on which the ETA version is based is that it's not particularly noisy. Does the modified V7750 use ceramic bearings?

[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by Bxtek

Would you be able to pull the money out of your PayPal? That way there is no money for them to "take back"? I'm pretty sure that they would not be able to pull it out of your connected bank account or credit card, but delete those as well just to be safe? I don't leave a balance in my PayPal account anymore for reasons exactly like this.

They would just leave your PayPal in negative status. I’ve had it happen years ago when I got scammed on selling a laptop.

[slin1110]

Sorry for hear this. PP always side with the buyer. And their fee are ridiculous. Avoid using PP in the future. Hope you get it sorted soon.

After years of selling online and locally. You are too nice. If your listing was very detailed and loaded with photos. The buyer asked multiple questions and you like replied to their satisfaction. They then decide to purchase the good from you. Therefore, they agreed on the transaction based on the details they got from you. I personally believe you really going above and beyond to even offer refunds.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by westsiderkg

Good thoughts and tks...I just want to tread lightly here since I have no seller claims experience and this is a learning curve for me. I'll be sure to follow up as soon as possible to help others!

Tough break.

Ask a Mod to simply discreetly ban or put a hold on the Buyer profile here.

And to not out the Buyer/Member until you close the case.

Then if the Buyer protests and goes ape, that’s on them.

And PP doesn’t care about 3rd party forum discussions and such. S/He could potential admit fraud here and the PP automatons will still do what their screen and manuals say.

I have a feeling they’ll stay quiet as this goes through the process.

[Jim Smyth]

There are ongoing scams like this where the buyer sends a empty box. Once its accepted and shows delivered I read nightmare scenarios trying to get your money back if at all. I would definitely open the box in the presence of the shipper (with video) so you have proof if there is or isnt anything in the box.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...ight=empty+box

[dan993]

PayPal has turned in to a means for fraud with the wrong people. Do not use it as in the end you will get scammed. I collect various type of art prints and have been scammed on 2 occasions.

[westsiderkg]

Thanks for all the guidance everyone. Feeling a little better, but still have a bad feeling.

[214270Explorer]

Originally Posted by westsiderkg

Thanks for all the guidance everyone. Feeling a little better, but still have a bad feeling.

Try to stay positive and hopefully this will be resolved to your benefit