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Old 13 August 2016, 02:20 AM   #1
AID_
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Rolex 3186 behavior

Hello Gentlemen! I have a pretty specific question about Cal 3186 and hope that someone with experience with this movement can answer it. I have to disclose that I am a hobbyist watchmaker with a fair amount of experience, but mostly working with inexpensive vintage watches and some contemporary ETA. The only Rolex a serviced in and out was Cal 1570. I have been inside 3135 a few times, but only for a quick adjustment. Thus - I have very little experience with Rolex movements.

Anyway, I just bought an "almost new" GMT Master II with 3186. The watch was originally sold six months ago and only warn a few times, so it's practically new. I have this watch for 3-4 days it runs perfectly with only 4 or 5 seconds positional error in four main positions. When fully would it shows an amplitude around 300-310. But within a couple of minutes amplitude drops to 270-280. The amplitude is stable from there on.

From my experience with ETA once the fully wound movement settles amplitude is usually 290-300. But on this Rolex it's somewhat lower. I would say almost on the border of normal. Unless Rolex has different specifications for this caliber. Does anyone have an opinion on this matter?

Thanks.

P.S. I assume lift angle is 52' for this movement. If not, it throws all my numbers out of the window
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Old 13 August 2016, 04:12 AM   #2
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I've seen 31 calibers go as low as 260 and it's never really a problem for timekeeping. I'd say if it's at least 270 you have nothing to worry about.
It shouldn't go under 200degrees amplitude after 24hrs in any position.
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Old 14 August 2016, 01:17 PM   #3
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Thank you for your insight!
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Old 14 August 2016, 05:48 PM   #4
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I've seen 31 calibers go as low as 260 and it's never really a problem for timekeeping. I'd say if it's at least 270 you have nothing to worry about.
It shouldn't go under 200degrees amplitude after 24hrs in any position.
Have to agree 100% 270 will be fine
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Old 15 August 2016, 06:39 AM   #5
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270 degrees is ideal, i wouldn't worry
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Old 15 August 2016, 03:03 PM   #6
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Icon14 Thank you!

First of all, gentlemen, thank you for your replies. Your time to read my post and reply to it is appreciated. Secondly, perhaps my post shows more worries then really exist. I am not overly concerned with a "lower" amplitude. I understand it's within norm.

I guess what I was seeking is an opinion of watchmakers with experience servicing calibers 31XX if it's common for these calibers to ran in 270-280 degrees neighborhood when fully wound. That's all. Either way the watch runs perfect in all aspects: excellent timekeeping and minimal positional error. One of the best movements I ever seen.
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Old 16 August 2016, 01:44 AM   #7
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First of all, gentlemen, thank you for your replies. Your time to read my post and reply to it is appreciated. Secondly, perhaps my post shows more worries then really exist. I am not overly concerned with a "lower" amplitude. I understand it's within norm.

I guess what I was seeking is an opinion of watchmakers with experience servicing calibers 31XX if it's common for these calibers to ran in 270-280 degrees neighborhood when fully wound. That's all. Either way the watch runs perfect in all aspects: excellent timekeeping and minimal positional error. One of the best movements I ever seen.
Truly a great movement indeed, rarely encounter any problems (except for worn rotor axle).
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Old 29 September 2016, 09:50 AM   #8
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Today I was in visiting our watchmaker, a Rolex trained tech, and CMW21 credentialed. I retired in June after 36 years at this AD. I have a GMT II BLNR. He had a 3186 movement on his workbench and said this is the third GMT II that he had to replace a cam and a gear in the setting mechanism of the hour hand. He said it is a flaw in the design, he showed me where is is breaking in the same spot and Rolex has a new design that he is replacing the older one with. Mine is new enough (April) that it will have the new one, but the one he was repairing we sold in 2014, we are doing it in house at no cost to the customer. Faster than sending it to Rolex and better customer service. The symptom is that the hour hand won't set. Anyone else identified this problem?
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Old 29 September 2016, 10:02 AM   #9
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Mine runs fine so far, but it's too new to tell, it's from April of 2016. In fact my first concern about "lower amplitude" went away too!
As I wore the watch for some time amplitude averages around 290' now, when fully would. Yes, it goes down to around 275' overnight, but it's normal. My initial concern was that 275' may be a bit too low when watch was warn all day, but I guess it took some time to brake in. Now it's higher right off the wrist.
One of the most accurate movements I've seen and looks great too.
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Old 30 September 2016, 11:22 AM   #10
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Mine runs fine so far, but it's too new to tell, it's from April of 2016. In fact my first concern about "lower amplitude" went away too!

As I wore the watch for some time amplitude averages around 290' now, when fully would. Yes, it goes down to around 275' overnight, but it's normal. My initial concern was that 275' may be a bit too low when watch was warn all day, but I guess it took some time to brake in. Now it's higher right off the wrist.

One of the most accurate movements I've seen and looks great too.



As long as the pendant positions are above 200 degrees after 24 hours as stated above, you should be in good shape


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Old 1 October 2016, 01:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AID_ View Post
Mine runs fine so far, but it's too new to tell, it's from April of 2016. In fact my first concern about "lower amplitude" went away too!
As I wore the watch for some time amplitude averages around 290' now, when fully would. Yes, it goes down to around 275' overnight, but it's normal. My initial concern was that 275' may be a bit too low when watch was warn all day, but I guess it took some time to brake in. Now it's higher right off the wrist.
One of the most accurate movements I've seen and looks great too.
275 when fully wound is definitely not too low.
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Old 1 October 2016, 01:36 AM   #12
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Today I was in visiting our watchmaker, a Rolex trained tech, and CMW21 credentialed. I retired in June after 36 years at this AD. I have a GMT II BLNR. He had a 3186 movement on his workbench and said this is the third GMT II that he had to replace a cam and a gear in the setting mechanism of the hour hand. He said it is a flaw in the design, he showed me where is is breaking in the same spot and Rolex has a new design that he is replacing the older one with. Mine is new enough (April) that it will have the new one, but the one he was repairing we sold in 2014, we are doing it in house at no cost to the customer. Faster than sending it to Rolex and better customer service. The symptom is that the hour hand won't set. Anyone else identified this problem?
The ones I serviced had the old gear and spring and I replaced it for the update one. The new one is stronger and longer and shouldn't break easily.
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Old 1 October 2016, 04:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMc View Post
Today I was in visiting our watchmaker, a Rolex trained tech, and CMW21 credentialed. I retired in June after 36 years at this AD. I have a GMT II BLNR. He had a 3186 movement on his workbench and said this is the third GMT II that he had to replace a cam and a gear in the setting mechanism of the hour hand. He said it is a flaw in the design, he showed me where is is breaking in the same spot and Rolex has a new design that he is replacing the older one with. Mine is new enough (April) that it will have the new one, but the one he was repairing we sold in 2014, we are doing it in house at no cost to the customer. Faster than sending it to Rolex and better customer service. The symptom is that the hour hand won't set. Anyone else identified this problem?
I just sent my 2010 GMT II in to RSC Dallas for this exact problem. I was about to send it in for general service anyway, so I'm hoping they will tell me it will be covered under the cost of the service.
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Old 1 October 2016, 06:22 AM   #14
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They will replace the parts with the new "improved" in this service.


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Old 2 October 2016, 07:21 AM   #15
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Hi,

Max amplitude is 300 degrees. If higher, Rolex standard tell you you have to replace the standard mainspring to a weaker mainspring to resolve the too high amplitude.

Coming back to your watch. When worn and if you move your arm enough the amplitude will be around 20 degrees above what you measured.
This is because the autowinder will wind the spring just to the edge it will slip.
So if you have 270 now, with an additional 20 degrees you ar close to the maximum amplitude accoring to the Rolex standards.

So all well.

Test the amplitude after 24 hours (let the mainspring down 4.8 revolutions of the arbor of the mainspring). As stated above,should be > 200 degrees with crown down, again according to the Rolex standards for this movement.

Br

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Old 20 October 2016, 08:59 AM   #16
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Timing machine data

This is a copy of the printout from our Witschi timing machine of my GMT-II BLNR. Witschi is the machine required by Rolex USA.

Column 1
Number of seconds/day in the 5 positions. Top is face up, second is face down, third crown down, forth crown left, fifth crown up.

Column 2
Amplitude, or the rotation of the balance wheel. Should be 220 degrees or more. Some models are 200 or more.

Column 3
Number of millisecond variation of the pallet fork from side to side (tick-tock)
0 would be ideal but usually not adjusted unless it is 10 off.

Right side of the vertical line (Actually the top line)

D is the maximum variation of the 5 positions (7 seconds, in my case +5 to -2) Max variation in amplitude 21 degrees, 0.2 maximum pallet fork deviation.
X is the average gain per day in seconds in the 5 positions. Average Amplitude, 0.2 is the pallet fork variation again.
Xv is the stats in the v vertical position
Xh is the stats in the h horizontal position
Dvh is the variation in the vertical and horizontal positions
Dv is the variation is the vertical position

My watch on my wrist gains 0.5 seconds per day. So this data is a guideline but not the final word while the watch is worn. We have adjusted the watch to our customer, however if everyone wanted it timed to their individual needs, you wouldn't have enough time to do all of the other repairs.
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Old 20 October 2016, 03:28 PM   #17
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Thank you, guys! Great information to have.
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Old 10 October 2021, 08:40 PM   #18
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doesn't rolex provie any "data sheet" or "service sheet"? after so many years, all over the world, there got to be something.

any one understands how timegraph works, know it "listens" to the 1st and 3rd of the "5 ticks". Simply put, "lift angle" & “beat” supposed to be a given data. cal.3186 is a 28800 machine. that's all i can get from open sources.
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Old 12 October 2021, 08:56 AM   #19
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doesn't rolex provie any "data sheet" or "service sheet"? after so many years, all over the world, there got to be something.

any one understands how timegraph works, know it "listens" to the 1st and 3rd of the "5 ticks". Simply put, "lift angle" & “beat” supposed to be a given data. cal.3186 is a 28800 machine. that's all i can get from open sources.
Rolex Tech. Info. No. 25-1 (December 2004) contains specifications and maintenance instructions for calibers 3135, 3130, 3155, 3175, and 3185. It's 56 pages, and I purchased a brand new copy in factory wrapping on ebay from seller mattparp in Italy for US$34.99. Although it doesn't cover the 3186, most of the 3185 information applies to the 3186.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304148105683
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Old 20 October 2021, 06:59 AM   #20
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ref 3186..

I recently had my GMT Master 2 ref 3186 coke stick dial serviced by a local dealer. My GMT was suffering from the same problem, the hr hand would not advance.
Here,s the thing, they charged me for a full service $800, i thought this would have been covered by Rolex, but apparently they did not for my GMT.
respectfully
dazed and confused..
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