Advices on a red sub

[DSplash]

Hi all
What would you think of this red 1680?
Seems like a pretty honest original mk4 to me but I might be missing something...
Serial in the 3.4M range, caseback stamped III71 (so earlier).
The lume seems very white-ish to me for a watch this age, but I’ve seen quite like this...



Thanks


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[1675-David]

Nice looking Sub, 3,4 mill is a bit late for a Mk4 dial but not worryingly so in my opinion, the case back OK for this serial but perhaps a tad early for the serial, but hej it's Rolex, they did what they had to do to get these watches out the door back in the day. The dial looks great and the color of the lume is not an issue, check out the red sub sticky at the top of the vintage section and the thread with red sub and their serials to get a feeling for where your watch fits into the grand scale of things

here https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=225667
and here https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

ps mine has also light markers (mk5 dial)

[bayerische]

Looks pretty good to me, love the bezel. Nice to see a correct 9315 bracelet too.

Out of curiosity... what is the price?

[DSplash]

Originally Posted by bayerische

Looks pretty good to me, love the bezel. Nice to see a correct 9315 bracelet too.

Out of curiosity... what is the price?

Yes, the insert is great!
The price is 16,5k€...It seems quite well placed imo


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[DSplash]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

Nice looking Sub, 3,4 mill is a bit late for a Mk4 dial but not worryingly so in my opinion, the case back OK for this serial but perhaps a tad early for the serial, but hej it's Rolex, they did what they had to do to get these watches out the door back in the day. The dial looks great and the color of the lume is not an issue, check out the red sub sticky at the top of the vintage section and the thread with red sub and their serials to get a feeling for where your watch fits into the grand scale of things

here https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=225667
and here https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

ps mine has also light markers (mk5 dial)

Thanks, it confirms what I think of it!


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by DSplash

Yes, the insert is great!
The price is 16,5k€...It seems quite well placed imo


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

That is a great price! Private or business seller?

[Dan S]

My gut would tell me that the back has probably been swapped out at some point, but that wouldn't stop me from buying it at the right price. It's a really appealing watch.

[swish77]

Agree with David above .... case back could be correct. My 3.7 million Sub 5512 has a case back stamped I 72, which I'm certain is original to the watch, so a 3.4 million watch stamped a little earlier doesn't seem out of line. The lists we use for years/serial numbers are just estimates, of course.

[DSplash]

Originally Posted by bayerische

That is a great price! Private or business seller?

Private...


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

Agree with David above .... case back could be correct. My 3.7 million Sub 5512 has a case back stamped I 72, which I'm certain is original to the watch, so a 3.4 million watch stamped a little earlier doesn't seem out of line. The lists we use for years/serial numbers are just estimates, of course.

Yes, there was a lot of variability apparently. Once upon a time I was googling and found a remarkable scatter plot summarizing a large amount of compiled data ... serial number vs. case-back stamp. Unfortunately, I failed to bookmark it and could never find it again.

There is of course this list: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=350245

[othertbone]

I'm no expert, but something has been replaced. Dial lume and hands are different colors.

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by othertbone

I'm no expert, but something has been replaced. Dial lume and hands are different colors.

that is more common than matched dial and hands and doesn't, in this case, indicate anything

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by othertbone

I'm no expert, but something has been replaced. Dial lume and hands are different colors.

OK... Good to know.

You said it best yourself. "I'm no expert".

[othertbone]

Originally Posted by bayerische

OK... Good to know.

You said it best yourself. "I'm no expert".

You sound like a wonderful person. Your kids must be very proud

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Yes, there was a lot of variability apparently. Once upon a time I was googling and found a remarkable scatter plot summarizing a large amount of compiled data ... serial number vs. case-back stamp. Unfortunately, I failed to bookmark it and could never find it again.

There is of course this list: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=350245

Great lists, thanks (and to Springer). I saw these years ago, but had forgotten.

To further this point ... Here is a confirmed 4.0 million watch (a military 5514 with a correct 5513 case back) stamped I 72. Since the serial number for a military watch is also engraved inside the case back (as seen in the photo), we know this date stamp and the serial number have always been together, unlike a regular case back that could have been swapped at some point to an earlier or later serial-numbered watch. There is no ambiguity or doubt here.

Virtually every list online, including on TRF, puts a 4.0 million Rolex in 1974, not 1972. My point is that serial-number dating will always be an estimate, in part because Rolex probably used up older case backs on newer watches sometimes, especially toward the end of the run of date stamping on any case backs around 1973.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by swish77

... especially toward the end of the run of date stamping on any case backs around 1973.

I hadn't thought about this aspect, i.e. that they had to use up any leftover stashes of stamped case-backs. Interesting notion. One thing I vaguely recall from the scatter plot I mentioned previously was that the correlation between serial number and case stamp was pretty strong until about 1971, and then the fluctuations really increased.

[Lgear080]

Quite nice imo. Not every vintage has to be yellow or toasty...

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I hadn't thought about this aspect, i.e. that they had to use up any leftover stashes of stamped case-backs. Interesting notion.

It actually makes sense as to why they probably moved away from stamping casebacks if this is the case. Can just use casebacks from previous years without worrying if the year matches the year the watch was made...interesting!

[DSplash]

Thanks for all the comments!
So in the end, it all looks great? It’s supposed to be a 1 owner watch and I think it does look like it.
Serviced twice apparently in its life. What do you think of its polishing? I would say it has been but probably long ago but don’t know for sure...
Thanks again!


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[bertberr]

Difficult to be 100% sure from those pics as its difficult to see the interface between upper and side of lugs, for chamfers etc, but to me the lugs look nice and fat, crown guards too.

Yes it will almost certainly have been polished in its life, at least once perhaps more, how many 50 yr old watches haven't? But looking at the patina on the case, I'd say its been a while. I like it.

What has always puzzled me is that a lot of the Mk.4's I see have later serials than many of the Mk.5's out there... The joys of vintage Rolex!

[1675-David]

the case looks lovely:
: I like to see a distinct line along the meeting of the flat surface where it becomes the rounded top of the crown gards
: I like it when the light that is reflected on the sides of the case gives straight vertical lines and has a hardness about it
: I like it when the tops of the lugs are shiney from years of wear and polishing by a sleeve

this watch case has all these things

[42itus]

I think the watch looks great but I have a question that is related to this watch and also a question in general.

If we assume that this insert is original to the watch, how would the insert get so faded yet the patina on the dial be relatively mild?

Let's be clear, I'm not questioning anything about this watch, I think it's a beautiful watch. Just curious as to how dials and inserts can age at different rates.

[Filipão]

@DSplash, got for it D.! :-)

[1675-David]

Exposure to a lot of sunshine will fade an insert, add some diving and sea air and it will fade even more. Sunshine and lots of light slow down the darkening of the lume. So a really faded insert and light lume is as it should be.

[1675-David]

.

[42itus]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

Exposure to a lot of sunshine will fade an insert, add some diving and sea air and it will fade even more. Sunshine and lots of light slow down the darkening of the lume. So a really faded insert and light lume is as it should be.

Wow. I had it backwards. So watches with whiter lume have been exposed to sun and watches with creamy patina have not been exposed to sun?

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by 42itus

Wow. I had it backwards. So watches with whiter lume have been exposed to sun and watches with creamy patina have not been exposed to sun?

That seems to be the case, there was a lot of discussion about this a few years back when there were lots of watches coming out of HK with very nice dark even patina.

[lee fowler]

Originally Posted by 42itus

Wow. I had it backwards. So watches with whiter lume have been exposed to sun and watches with creamy patina have not been exposed to sun?

My DRSD which has spent most of its life in a draw till I purchased it.

[42itus]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

That seems to be the case, there was a lot of discussion about this a few years back when there were lots of watches coming out of HK with very nice dark even patina.

Originally Posted by lee fowler

My DRSD which has spent most of its life in a draw till I purchased it.

That is cool knowledge. I thought it was obvious that the more time spent under the sun, the more an object would change in appearance.

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by lee fowler

My DRSD which has spent most of its life in a draw till I purchased it.

Gorgeous Lee! Glad it came out into the light!!