I was betrayed after all with ”Kermit Flat 4”

[harvey]

FinWatch I followed your previous thread about this particular watch, in which you felt you had to get it serviced. At least you now know sooner than later how genuine it really is.

I am sorry you are going through this saga. Stay strong for the fight...

[FinWatch]

Originally Posted by superdog

You are blaming the whole country?

I am sorry, I don’t understand what you mean? I am not blaming the whole country. Mostly blaming the shop for lying and myself being stupid...


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[jvd99]

Buying anything of value sight unseen and from a stranger on the internet is an invitation to be scammed. Personally, I would never, ever, buy a collectible Rolex online, especially from another country that is notorious for trafficking counterfeit luxury products

[FinWatch]

Originally Posted by jvd99

Buying anything of value sight unseen and from a stranger on the internet is an invitation to be scammed. Personally, I would never, ever, buy a collectible Rolex online, especially from another country that is notorious for trafficking counterfeit luxury products

Wise words! I will never do this again.


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[offrdmania]

Im sorry for the bad news OP, its seems that this may be the new Airking/Explorer watch that sellers are going after in order to make a premium on the sale.

[jaySL350]

Damn!
So sorry you got conned,,,
All the best,,,,,

[envuks]

Im confused here. Was the dial switched too or was only the bezel switched? If the dial wasn’t switched, the lack of maxi dial should have been a dead giveaway.

Buyer beware when purchasing anything from a non AD. Be sure to do your homework so you know what you’re looking at.

[REFZ]

I don't get the hype about these kind of watches and paying top dollar for them because of a very small difference of the bezel and a maxi dial.
It is so easy to say the seller was not legit but maybe you should have done your homework better.

[FinWatch]

Originally Posted by envuks

Im confused here. Was the dial switched too or was only the bezel switched? If the dial wasn’t switched, the lack of maxi dial should have been a dead giveaway.



Buyer beware when purchasing anything from a non AD. Be sure to do your homework so you know what you’re looking at.

Both switched—I have not yet got the official report.

Absolutely right: I should have been aware that this way sellers can betray aswell...


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[FinWatch]

Originally Posted by REFZ

I don't get the hype about these kind of watches and paying top dollar for them because of a very small difference of the bezel and a maxi dial.

It is so easy to say the seller was not legit but maybe you should have done your homework better.

Yep. I should have.
But most of all I think that sellers should be more honest.


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[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by REFZ

I don't get the hype about these kind of watches and paying top dollar for them because of a very small difference of the bezel and a maxi dial.
It is so easy to say the seller was not legit but maybe you should have done your homework better.

Its an anniversary edition watch and with a flat 4 the numbers are more limited. I'm not a big green fan but I think this is a sharp watch, and I like the limited idea. The hulk to me is

[Jason71]

I can’t remember......was it a full-set with a expired warranty card indicating in started life as a 16610LV?

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by FinWatch

Today I got a very unwanted telephone call from Rolex:
My Kermit Flat 4 that I bought from Italy, is not Flat 4.
They inspected the watch more carefully in Switzerland than in Finland.
According to serial number: The watch is original black Sub—but not Flat4.
Incredible. I have been betrayed.
My first and last time that I am buying a pre-owned Rolex.
I was stupid: as a rookie I went straight into buying Kermit.
I will publish the name of the shop later on.
Be very careful if you are about to buy a Rolex from Italy.


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Sorry to hear. But I’m not surprised. The LV and GMT (it’s a real Pepsi) are 5d’s you vett like a vintage.

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by REFZ

I don't get the hype about these kind of watches and paying top dollar for them because of a very small difference of the bezel and a maxi dial.
It is so easy to say the seller was not legit but maybe you should have done your homework better.

That's harsh!

The buyer is the innocent party here, the seller has set out to deliberately deceive.

Difficult to be sure when buying off the internet- personally I wouldn't do it - the only thing the the OP is guilty of is being too trusting.

The seller has all the blame in this instance.

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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by FinWatch

Mostly blaming the shop for lying and myself being stupid...

It's NOT you, someone at some point put effort into using Rolex parts to change it, so it appeared to be the genuine article. Without you or an AD having access to Rolex SN database... And yes, am also curious if it came with Rolex card. Again, not your fault and buying Rolex watches without card happens, and bet she looks 100% authentic too. Again, you don't have direct access to Rolex SN database and so how would one *truly* know in this case. Not your fault at all really. Sh*t happens

[travisb]

Sorry to hear and sadly not uncommon. Lesson learned. Looking forward to seeing what the seller has to say. If anything at all.

[24 nights]

Sorry to hear, I hope you get money back

[037]

Man, this sucks. Vintage acrylic models are bad enough with most of them being put together from various parts and sold as "original." With flat four LVs selling for stupid amounts these days, it's disappointing but not surprising to hear they're falling victim of the fame fate.

I'm curious about the papers as well, just as Jason asked above. It would be interesting to see them if available.

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

This is interesting for me because I have recently been looking at LV Subs.

I saw one from Italy on Chrono24 advertised as 'Flat 4' but it was a 2007 model which I thought was very late.

Also, it didn't have the oval 'O' in Rolex nor was the 'Swiss Made' sat over the 28 to 32 minute markers as should be correct for a true flat 4 reference.

Needless to say I passed sorry to hear you got caught out.

If you do not get this resolved with the seller, please name & shame

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Firstly, OP very sorry to hear this.

Only early ones have oval O and Swiss Made varies with years.

[101031-28]

Originally Posted by superdog

You are blaming the whole country?

Not the whole but from personal experience, being born and raised there and having started my Rolex collecting over there too, I do not trust any seller that is not an authorized dealer. Was scammed several times in my dealings over there, very sad how unscrupulous those folks can be, sorry but it's the truth. At least it is for me.

[Pavlos]

That is strange in the UK even if you take your watch in for service the RSC checks the number on the movement against the serial number. The RSC confirmed this to me over the phone a few years back. This is done to ensure it was the original movement with the watch. Why could Finland not pick this up?? This is why in the past I purchased vintage and then pre owned newish watches. 18 months ago sold my existing pre owned Rolex watch. I compromised forgot about fashion trends, picked a Rolex at an AD and I am done now buying watches. Will be like the older generation bought a watch forget about it and it will outlast me.

[singkwokhk]

I have an LV Sub from 2007-8. Sometimes I put a Rolex black bezel on it. the LV Rolex model is just a Rolex with a maxi dial!

[dmhines]

Seems crazy that somebody went through the trouble of acquiring the Kermit Dial, Flat 4 Bezel and Hands .. and then swapped them to a standard Sub Date.

Perhaps a dealer did it back when the LV was initially introduced and parts were cheap and readily available from Rolex??

I didn't know Rolex had a database of Serial Numbers ...

[SeaDweller50]

Originally Posted by singkwokhk

I have an LV Sub from 2007-8. Sometimes I put a Rolex black bezel on it. the LV Rolex model is just a Rolex with a maxi dial!

You mean the LV Sub is just a 16610LN Sub with a maxi dial and larger minute hand, plus green insert.

[woof]

Sorry to hear that you got rip off. I hope you can get your money back.

[dmhines]

Originally Posted by woof

Sorry to hear that you got rip off. I hope you can get your money back.

I personally would keep it but would want a partial refund since its not an original LV ... but since its 100% Genuine Rolex parts .. I'd be good with that.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by SeaDweller50

You mean the LV Sub is just a 16610LN Sub with a maxi dial and larger minute hand, plus green insert.

Yes that's all there is to it

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by dmhines

i personally would keep it but would want a partial refund since its not an original lv ... But since its 100% genuine rolex parts .. I'd be good with that.

x 2

[Gimoozaabi]

Originally Posted by padi56

All LV watches are just normal 16610 subs only difference green bezel insert maxi dial and very slightly different hands.The first models had the flat 4 font on bezel insert, so did the normal 16610 and SD in same time period. Plus the flat four font has been used by Rolex several times over the past 50 plus years.In some countries there is no indication or markings on the watch or papers to indicate its a LV,the only indication on a plastic tag.Are you saying the watch in question had the dial hands and bezel insert changed to make it into a 16610LV?.

First,

Sorry to read about the OP experience. Good move to investigate further the SN and the find the end-result, better to have that knowledge or be in the dark. It appears that the vintage Rolex market and particularly hot models like LV with galloping prices are becoming a riskier to buy. Such a pity as they are great references.

Second,

My question is to padi56 and whoever also has knowledge about it. Sorry to hi-jack this thread. It appears that other Submariner references e.g. 14060m and 16610 have flat four bezels. Not to dilute the OP thread, is there a specific information / threads with such information? If so, please post your answers in this separate thread started few months ago ( no response received so far):
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=8147796

Again, sorry for the offtopic. Please keep us posted with the outcome.

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[Basel_World]

Crazy, the Italian seller you mentioned currently has another fat four LV for sale on Chrono24 for EUR 16500. He even claims it is not yet polished