Rolex vs Grand Seiko

[drfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

The day they stop putting Grand Seiko and GS on the dial is the day I consider one. This redundancy makes me crazy, like a belt and suspenders. Maybe it’s insignificant, maybe it’s petty but it’s enough to keep me from buying one.

It's really the ugliest logo. I can't get past it.

Brands with epic recognizable logos: Rolex, Nike, Apple, etc. are part of what makes their products look great.

[Tavli3]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

You’re absolutely right and I’m a Seiko fan...but the concept of a rivalry is ridiculous.

+1
Agree they need to keep the Grand and drop the Seiko. It’s like as if Toyota didn’t use Lexus for their upscale brand and just called it Grand Toyota!!

No matter what superior quality it may have it would just be a Toyota to most people even though they’re not.

I happen to love some of the GS dials but I’d rather spend a few more bucks for Rolex. Another way to look at it is Rolex is a much better value cause it saves you money cause you can’t buy them!!


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[RJRJRJ]

Originally Posted by RyanJ

Who knows. All we can go on is what we have seen happen in the past. GS is really too new to know.

People could move on even more to other brands or

A slowdown in the Rolex market could mean a general slowdown in watch buying or

Many other various scenarios.

We may never know until something like that happens.

That's sort of where I'm going with it. If Rolex saw a significant decline, I would imagine that would affect the industry as a whole, and most other brands, particularly fringe brands such as GS would fall off the face of the earth.

Originally Posted by Tavli3

+1
Agree they need to keep the Grand and drop the Seiko. It’s like as if Toyota didn’t use Lexus for their upscale brand and just called it Grand Toyota!!

No matter what superior quality it may have it would just be a Toyota to most people even though they’re not.

I happen to love some of the GS dials but I’d rather spend a few more bucks for Rolex. Another way to look at it is Rolex is a much better value cause it saves you money cause you can’t buy them!!


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I remember Hyundai would give customers an option to have no Hyundai branding on the Genesis years ago, before they made Genesis it's own brand.

[TopDog2315]

I’m sorry but IMO there is no competition at all...

GS is by no means on the same scale as Rolex - you will never find one on my wrist that’s for sure.

Cheers


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[challer]

Some GS watches are stunning in person. The Spring Drive system, once you understand it, is a marvel of technology. And I can get GMT without a big outer bezel.

[RyanJ]

Originally Posted by RJRJRJ

That's sort of where I'm going with it. If Rolex saw a significant decline, I would imagine that would affect the industry as a whole, and most other brands, particularly fringe brands such as GS would fall off the face of the earth.

I don't think GS would stop selling. Seiko is a massive brand. I think GS would just limit their production further. They have been hugely popular in Japan even before coming elsewhere.

[Max 66]

Is the Lexus LC 500 V8 a competitor of Porsche Carrera? Is it any better than a Porsche Carrera?
I don't care, I keep buying Porsche.

By the way we can do exactly the same example by trying to compare a Porsche with a Ferrari; the Ferrari enthusiasts will keep buying the Maranello's cars.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

+1
Agree they need to keep the Grand and drop the Seiko. It’s like as if Toyota didn’t use Lexus for their upscale brand and just called it Grand Toyota!!

No matter what superior quality it may have it would just be a Toyota to most people even though they’re not.

I happen to love some of the GS dials but I’d rather spend a few more bucks for Rolex. Another way to look at it is Rolex is a much better value cause it saves you money cause you can’t buy them!!
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When the general public encounters retail displays such as this, there is absolutely no chance of Seiko rivalry with Rolex...even with GS. The general public sees stuff like this and it cannot be unseen.

Seiko has a deep branding conflict. They want to be upscale and capitalize on the quality they are capable of, but they are going to have to quit the cheap part of their business....they cannot exist in the same dimension and be what they want to be.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Robert Bruce

I have had GSs; well-made and reliable. I would probably be in the market for another if they were a little larger on diameter and a little thinner.

Personally I put GS above Rolex because of a few factors (also addressing the "thinner" emphasis):

1) The new hi-beat 9SA5 movement has dual impulse escapement, twin barrels, possessed 80-hour reserve and despite all these - slim (5.18mm movement and only 11.7mm in case thickness) https://www.grand-seiko.com/global-e...echanical/9sa5

2) The fully-jewelled movement is finished beautifully and it has actual anglage. And we are not even discussing Credor here, which is a step above.
9SA5-img12.jpg
(pic from Grand Seiko website)

3) The Zaratsu polishing is impeccable. This, we already know, but a pic says more.
SLGH005_crown.jpg
(pic from https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/gr...a5-introducing)

4) Drilled lugs!

[swish77]

A lot of uniformed comments on this thread about Grand Seiko, probably some from hobbyists who have never tried one on.

I have been collecting/wearing Rolexes for 30 years. Love ‘em, vintage and new. However, I think many Grand Seiko watches have more of a magical appeal because of their innovative design, stunningly beautiful dials, cutting-edge movements, and interesting cases with THE best polishing in the industry (Zaratsu). Combine all that with a Japanese aesthetic and it’s not a surprise the brand is making big inroads in the watch industry.

GS designed a dial based on the texture of a mountain (Mt. Iwate) and incorporates the texture of cherry blossom and white birch trees into some dials. Who does that? Very cool, like a lot of Japanese stuff. Rolex seems so, so conservative and sometimes boring compared to GS. And all the nonsense with trying to buy Rolexes nowadays is such a turnoff. I like GS precisely because it’s not Rolex. It’s the perfect, anti-Swiss alternative.

All that said, the brands are not really rivals. Rolex is king of the watch world, but that doesn’t mean better. The brands are just different, and there’s room for both in a collection. (I own two GSs.)

[brucethemanlee]

Grand Seiko not jn same league as Rolex
Silly comparison


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[Seddyspaghetti]

Originally Posted by zengineer

How many crowns on a modern Rolex?

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+1

Not complaining about it but the crown between “swiss made” is pretty redundant.

[Rexplorer214270]

Originally Posted by swish77

A lot of uniformed comments on this thread about Grand Seiko, probably some from hobbyists who have never tried one on.

I have been collecting/wearing Rolexes for 30 years. Love ‘em, vintage and new. However, I think many Grand Seiko watches have more of a magical appeal because of their innovative design, stunningly beautiful dials, cutting-edge movements, and interesting cases with THE best polishing in the industry (Zaratsu). Combine all that with a Japanese aesthetic and it’s not a surprise the brand is making big inroads in the watch industry.

GS designed a dial based on the texture of a mountain (Mt. Iwate) and incorporates the texture of cherry blossom and white birch trees into some dials. Who does that? Very cool, like a lot of Japanese stuff. Rolex seems so, so conservative and sometimes boring compared to GS. And all the nonsense with trying to buy Rolexes nowadays is such a turnoff. I like GS precisely because it’s not Rolex. It’s the perfect, anti-Swiss alternative.

All that said, the brands are not really rivals. Rolex is king of the watch world, but that doesn’t mean better. The brands are just different, and there’s room for both in a collection. (I own two GSs.)

If you had choose Rolex or GS what would you choose?

[Sandpit]

Originally Posted by brucethemanlee

Grand Seiko not jn same league as Rolex
Silly comparison


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You’re right, the Grand Seiko finishing level is a cut above Rolex

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by Sandpit

You’re right, the Grand Seiko finishing level is a cut above Rolex

Unfortunately for GS, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. I borrow the quote of course, but fact is that GS makes beautiful parts which come together to make rather unattractive watches. Just fact.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by challer

Some GS watches are stunning in person. The Spring Drive system, once you understand it, is a marvel of technology. And I can get GMT without a big outer bezel.

i understand the mechanism of the spring drive, no doubt the movement uses some ingenious technology to keep accurate time. but its just literally a quartz movement imho, it cannot function without a quartz.

[Sandpit]

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

Unfortunately for GS, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. I borrow the quote of course, but fact is that GS makes beautiful parts which come together to make rather unattractive watches. Just fact.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it’s opinion. Not fact.

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by Sandpit

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it’s opinion. Not fact.

Touché.
Most are blind to GS and will remain so. There is no emotional appeal to GS. People spend $’000s driven by emotion. Now that’s fact.

[Old Expat Beast]

Let's move this thread to the Grand Seiko section now, for balance and hopefully some informed input.

[Beoman]

It seems that rivalry ended at my place with the rolexes surounded by the japanese made watches...

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Rexplorer214270

If you had choose Rolex or GS what would you choose?

Apples and Oranges. Steak or chicken. It doesn't need to be one or the other. They both make fantastic watches. Comes down to personal preference and love of certain designs over others.

However, what cannot be argued is the actual quality of Grand Seiko, and the craftsmanship and finish of its watches. They might not be for everyone, which is fine, but GS makes super high-quality timepieces, many of which have a very cool Japanese aesthetic.

Some guys, especially a lot of Rolex lovers, dismiss the brand without fully evaluating the watches, and more importantly, seeing them in the flesh. I have about a dozen vintage and new Rolexes, but I also see the beauty of GS and own two of them.

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

There is no emotional appeal to GS. People spend $’000s driven by emotion. Now that’s fact.

This is just another opinion, and certainly not "fact." I'd argue there's often a very strong emotional appeal to many Grand Seiko watches, especially references that are conceptual, an approach Rolex never uses. How cool is it that GS designed a series of watches related to the seasons, and the one I own "Autumn," depicts a night sky behind a golden moon (the seconds hand.) There's definitely an emotional appeal there.

[munichblue]

I currently own three Rolex and two GS. Make an educated guess which one are more emotional to me.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

Unfortunately for GS, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. I borrow the quote of course, but fact is that GS makes beautiful parts which come together to make rather unattractive watches. Just fact.

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

Touché.
Most are blind to GS and will remain so. There is no emotional appeal to GS. People spend $’000s driven by emotion. Now that’s fact.

These are the opposite of “watch guy” posts. Fact.

[shalako]

I remember sitting outside at my tennis club last summer whilst wearing my Grand Seiko Snowflake, the guys were not watch enthusiasts and didn’t even know there as such a thing as ‘Grand Seiko’. Knowing however that I was into watches one of them asked which watch I was wearing. I took it off and showed him and asked him how much he thinks it was worth, after looking closely and commenting how light it was, a sign of cheapness in his view and seeing the word Seiko on the dial after the word Grand he said £100 ($130 ish), the other three genuinely guessed around the same figure. They weren’t being insulting they just didn’t notice or appreciate the quality, they are used to me wearing Rolex, Breitling, Omega etc..... and thought I had bought along a cheapie to play tennis with.
Clearly Grand Seiko fly’s under the radar which to some is a good thing but to your average non watch enthusiast it looked like cheap tat. The GS Snowflake is made of beautifully finished Grade 5 titanium that looks like steel until you handle it so you can further understand their thought process. I would suggest that there are a significant number of folk who buy Rolex because the last thing they want is to fly under the radar.

[munichblue]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

These are the opposite of “watch guy” posts. Fact.

You’re right. Fact!

[Rollieo]

Lot of people said it already.

I like Rolex and GS. Both have things that the other doesn’t offer. Anything that is in the same price range and is the same type of product is competitive. As for being a “rival”, depends in what sense.

On # of watches sold, brand recognition, marketing, resale value; it’s not even close.

On design, innovation, time keeping, craftsmanship, technology, quality; definitely rivals with GS beating Rolex out in a number of categories.

[SUPERDOC]

I would have never thought of them as rivals.. very different models, very different brand philosophy, etc.. but I suppose that there is competition for market share in the 5-10k watch segment.

What is interesting is that I am getting a sense that some of the Rolex guys are feeling threatened..

Truth goes through 3 historical stages:

1. it is ridiculed.
2. it is violently opposed.
3. it is regarded as self-evident.

Reading some of the "Rolex guys" comment makes me wonder if there might be an actual threat.

The Truth might be that Rolex is in danger of a slight shift in cultural mindset -

The inaccessibility of the steel Rolex is affecting the "crown for every achievement" purchase.

More people will look elsewhere to commemorate the purchase (we're talking about the global watch buying populace, not the social media flexing, and multiple watch collecting microcosm of the world we focus on).

If more people lose interest in Rolex because of its inaccessibility, and discover other Brands - Be it Omega, IWC, Grand Seiko, pre-owned full gold ALS at same price as greymarket OysterP - there might be less envy toward the 'Flexers'

I think many buy Rolex because of its value in 'Social Currency'. So, when other brands start to make waves, you can often see certain Rolex guys get anxious and threatened.

I think GS makes an incredible product - and I have Rolex and GS in my collection , and do find Rolex to have a different Aura, but GS feels much more finished on every level.

So many people have come to me for advice, wanting to get a "rolex" for their wedding/ 50th birthday /10 yr work anniversary / marriage anniversary ... those are the watches that future generations would see on their wrists and learn a subconscious connection..

these are not "watch guys" - they know Rolex because everyone knows Rolex - they go to the website - find a submariner - then ask me what I think and if I knew anyone who "could get them a good price"...

The shock when I tell them the current state of SS Rolex...a year ago, they might have just gone with an OP or DJ - now they can't even do that -

So, if they are really set on a watch, I have introduced many to other Brands -
who have been thrilled with their choice - the GMT GS sports line seem like common choices for many - others go to Omega - but the fact is, that many out there who were helping perpetuate the Rolex phenomenon are now making emotional bonds with other brands, emotional bonds that will last generations...

it starts small, then exponentially multiplies..

I know this is more than GS vs Rolex - but I think its interesting because previously I would have thought that Rolex had no Rivals - seeing the market share grow, and empty cases, you wonder if they are more dominant than ever - but I do wonder if the market share is driven by a smaller percentage of end-consumers..

Each Grey Dealer with hundreds of Hulks/Daytonas/Pepsis suggests that many would be WIS of the future inspired by "grandpa's watch" might no longer look to Rolex.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by SUPERDOC

I would have never thought of them as rivals.. very different models, very different brand philosophy, etc.. but I suppose that there is competition for market share in the 5-10k watch segment.

I saw your Hodinkee article; that's a very nice GS collection you have

[munichblue]

Originally Posted by SUPERDOC

I would have never thought of them as rivals.. very different models, very different brand philosophy, etc.. but I suppose that there is competition for market share in the 5-10k watch segment.

What is interesting is that I am getting a sense that some of the Rolex guys are feeling threatened..

Truth goes through 3 historical stages:

1. it is ridiculed.
2. it is violently opposed.
3. it is regarded as self-evident.

Reading some of the "Rolex guys" comment makes me wonder if there might be an actual threat.

The Truth might be that Rolex is in danger of a slight shift in cultural mindset -

The inaccessibility of the steel Rolex is affecting the "crown for every achievement" purchase.

More people will look elsewhere to commemorate the purchase (we're talking about the global watch buying populace, not the social media flexing, and multiple watch collecting microcosm of the world we focus on).

If more people lose interest in Rolex because of its inaccessibility, and discover other Brands - Be it Omega, IWC, Grand Seiko, pre-owned full gold ALS at same price as greymarket OysterP - there might be less envy toward the 'Flexers'

I think many buy Rolex because of its value in 'Social Currency'. So, when other brands start to make waves, you can often see certain Rolex guys get anxious and threatened.

I think GS makes an incredible product - and I have Rolex and GS in my collection , and do find Rolex to have a different Aura, but GS feels much more finished on every level.

So many people have come to me for advice, wanting to get a "rolex" for their wedding/ 50th birthday /10 yr work anniversary / marriage anniversary ... those are the watches that future generations would see on their wrists and learn a subconscious connection..

these are not "watch guys" - they know Rolex because everyone knows Rolex - they go to the website - find a submariner - then ask me what I think and if I knew anyone who "could get them a good price"...

The shock when I tell them the current state of SS Rolex...a year ago, they might have just gone with an OP or DJ - now they can't even do that -

So, if they are really set on a watch, I have introduced many to other Brands -
who have been thrilled with their choice - the GMT GS sports line seem like common choices for many - others go to Omega - but the fact is, that many out there who were helping perpetuate the Rolex phenomenon are now making emotional bonds with other brands, emotional bonds that will last generations...

it starts small, then exponentially multiplies..

I know this is more than GS vs Rolex - but I think its interesting because previously I would have thought that Rolex had no Rivals - seeing the market share grow, and empty cases, you wonder if they are more dominant than ever - but I do wonder if the market share is driven by a smaller percentage of end-consumers..

Each Grey Dealer with hundreds of Hulks/Daytonas/Pepsis suggests that many would be WIS of the future inspired by "grandpa's watch" might no longer look to Rolex.

[SUPERDOC]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I saw your Hodinkee article; that's a very nice GS collection you have

Thanks... I absolutely love GS .. and watches in general.. but I like to think that I am not drunk on any brand's kool-aid..

I find this a fascinating Discussion with some valid points, and some comments clearly fueled by 'kool-aid inebriation' .. ;)