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Old 3 November 2016, 01:49 AM   #1
5512vs5513
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Thoughts on modern watches developing patina

Hi everyone,

This might a silly question, and maybe impossible to answer, but do you think modern Rolex's will eventually develop patina? Given the advancements of technology, which minimizes human 'error', I tend to think that no, modern watches will not develop much patina

Using early 80s watches as example, not many of them have strong or at least good-looking patina, and these are already 30-35 year-old watches, with tritium markers!

Looking forward to your thoughts
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Old 3 November 2016, 02:07 AM   #2
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I don't think watches with luminova markers and/or ceramic bezels will change much if at all over time. The only changes these watches will go through are the addition of scratches and dings.

For me, the chemical changes that the older watches go through is what makes them so special. That they can change at different rates and in different ways makes each watch unique.

I've seen plenty of watches from the eighties with matte and glossy dials that have fantastic looking patina. I believe that these are next to be on collectors' radars.
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Old 3 November 2016, 03:35 AM   #3
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I don't think watches with luminova markers and/or ceramic bezels will change much if at all over time. The only changes these watches will go through are the addition of scratches and dings.

For me, the chemical changes that the older watches go through is what makes them so special. That they can change at different rates and in different ways makes each watch unique.

I've seen plenty of watches from the eighties with matte and glossy dials that have fantastic looking patina. I believe that these are next to be on collectors' radars.
Could be. I've thought of that a lot, but my main issue is that production numbers in the 1980s are way higher than on earlier decades, secondly I am not a big fan of the white gold markers. They make the watch look to modern inmho! But we'll see... I think certain models are very cool and already on the move as the case of the Explorer II 16550 with cream dial!
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Old 3 November 2016, 04:25 AM   #4
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No - not in the lume. On the case/bracelet/bezel etc. - sure, unless it's never worn.
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Old 3 November 2016, 07:56 AM   #5
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There are plenty of "modern" Rolexes that have developed fabulous patina, including this mid-'90s SD. Anything with tritium (used until the late '90s) can develop patina. Anything Rolex made after that and with luminova most likely won't, even 50 years from now. I think that's one reason why gloss-dial sports models with matching tritium dial/hands are getting harder and harder to find, and more and more expensive.
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Old 7 November 2016, 04:24 AM   #6
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I wonder about this as well. I'll be very interested to see what some of the daily wearers look like as time goes by.
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Old 20 March 2018, 04:41 AM   #7
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To my knowledge, almost every materials goes through color changes over time, especially when exposed to air, light, radiation, water, etc... of course there are some exceptions... Diamond, gold, mercury, etc... but since LumiNova/super LumiNova is a pigment, one could logically expect color variations over time.
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Old 20 March 2018, 06:18 AM   #8
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I don't think anyone knows what luminova will do in the future - decades after being applied to the dial and hands. Who knows, maybe it will turn green, blue, yellow or not develop any patina at all. It' a guessing game at this point.
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Old 20 March 2018, 06:46 AM   #9
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It would be nice if they do IMPO it gives the watch a look of the life that it has lived.
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Old 20 March 2018, 08:29 AM   #10
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This would be a big negative for me with the new ceramic bezels, imagine how odd they’ll look in 30 years with worn cases, aged lume and a brand new looking bezel insert.

I hate the maxi case look but if I could only change on thing about the newer sub/gmt it’d be the bezel insert for the old style so it’d age with the Watch.

This is the human equivalent of a ceramic bezel Rolex in 40 years...

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Old 21 March 2018, 12:58 AM   #11
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This is the human equivalent of a ceramic bezel Rolex in 40 years...

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Old 21 March 2018, 01:48 AM   #12
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My sub 168000 is 30+ years old. It has been worn daily since I bought it new with the exception of the one time in it's life that it went off for a service. While it's difficult to be exact, the hands and markers appear as white as the day that I got it. It's never been babied, has spent considerable time in the sun and waves and while the insert has a few marks and scratches, it could almost pass for close-to-new to the untrained eye.

When I see watches of similar age (or even newer) with dials/markers/pearls/hands, etc. that have changed color and/or texture so much over time, it makes me wonder how'd that happen?
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Old 21 March 2018, 03:12 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by photoguy View Post
My sub 168000 is 30+ years old. It has been worn daily since I bought it new with the exception of the one time in it's life that it went off for a service. While it's difficult to be exact, the hands and markers appear as white as the day that I got it. It's never been babied, has spent considerable time in the sun and waves and while the insert has a few marks and scratches, it could almost pass for close-to-new to the untrained eye.

When I see watches of similar age (or even newer) with dials/markers/pearls/hands, etc. that have changed color and/or texture so much over time, it makes me wonder how'd that happen?
Probably the opposite of yours - in the case of Tritium, it apparently goes darker when NOT worn, but stored away in the dark.
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Old 21 March 2018, 08:23 AM   #14
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Probably the opposite of yours - in the case of Tritium, it apparently goes darker when NOT worn, but stored away in the dark.
Folks seem to be very confused as to HOW tritium was used. Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen gas. The radioactive tritium was (is) used to make a chemical compound, usually a plastic like polyethylene. The plastic was then, also, radioactive. The plastic was then ground into a fine powder. The fine powder was then used as the pigment in paint, with an organic carrier or solvent used to dissolve or thin the plastic so that it could be painted onto instrument hands and dials.

The solvent evaporates, leaving a film of radioactive plastic which glows in the dark because the tritium atoms make the atoms in the plastic glow (very simplistically stated).

Because the original "tritium paint" is basically some kind of plastic material, it will get darker or lighter over the years, even after the tritium half-life has long ago prevented the plastic from still glowing in the dark.

The "patina" of the remaining plastic depends on what it was originally. Different plastics react differently over the years with exposure to ultraviolet light from the sun, exposure to moisture, exposure to atmosphere (oxygen/nitrogen), exposure to finger oils and solvents from watch servicing, etc.

While it is possible to make a true enamel from tritium compounds or even Luminova type phosphors, to my knowledge Rolex has never done this.

By "true enamel", I mean a powdered glass that is melted and fused to the hands or dial at high temperature, NOT a solvent based enamel paint.

In short, all Rolex tritium features will have an completely unpredictable response to ageing, depending upon how they were originally manufactured.
After the tritium is about 36 years old (roughly 3 half lives), any change in patina is strictly due to aging of the plastic itself, and not due to any residual radioactivity from the tritium, which was very weak to begin with.

Many museums today have a huge issue with preserving "plastic" items. Despite what we think, most common plastics do indeed degrade over time, sometimes quite rapidly. The Metropolitan Museum in New York had a small exhibit about this, with several acrylic items from the 1930's and 1940's that have basically slumped into a blob of amber slag. They know of no way to stop the process. It's a slow catalytic process within the material itself. Rolex watches are no different.

Because "Luminova" (read non-radioactive lume), from whatever source, is usually applied as a pigment in an organic (plastic) carrier, I would expect it to exhibit the same (completely unpredictable) patina over time. It may indeed still glow 500 years from now, but in regular room lighting, I would expect that it would certainly NOT appear to be the same color as the day it was applied!

As far as the rest of the watch goes, the same logic applies. If the dial face is painted, it will age and develope a patina. Ceramic bezel inserts will probably shift color, as much as very old cathedral stained glass has done the same. Not very much (?), but I'm not privy to the Rolex ceramic formula. It's possible that they could all turn bone white in 100 years. Let's wait and see!
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Old 21 March 2018, 09:00 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by rq3 View Post
Folks seem to be very confused as to HOW tritium was used. Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen gas. The radioactive tritium was (is) used to make a chemical compound, usually a plastic like polyethylene. The plastic was then, also, radioactive. The plastic was then ground into a fine powder. The fine powder was then used as the pigment in paint, with an organic carrier or solvent used to dissolve or thin the plastic so that it could be painted onto instrument hands and dials.

The solvent evaporates, leaving a film of radioactive plastic which glows in the dark because the tritium atoms make the atoms in the plastic glow (very simplistically stated).

Because the original "tritium paint" is basically some kind of plastic material, it will get darker or lighter over the years, even after the tritium half-life has long ago prevented the plastic from still glowing in the dark.

The "patina" of the remaining plastic depends on what it was originally. Different plastics react differently over the years with exposure to ultraviolet light from the sun, exposure to moisture, exposure to atmosphere (oxygen/nitrogen), exposure to finger oils and solvents from watch servicing, etc.

While it is possible to make a true enamel from tritium compounds or even Luminova type phosphors, to my knowledge Rolex has never done this.

By "true enamel", I mean a powdered glass that is melted and fused to the hands or dial at high temperature, NOT a solvent based enamel paint.

In short, all Rolex tritium features will have an completely unpredictable response to ageing, depending upon how they were originally manufactured.
After the tritium is about 36 years old (roughly 3 half lives), any change in patina is strictly due to aging of the plastic itself, and not due to any residual radioactivity from the tritium, which was very weak to begin with.

Many museums today have a huge issue with preserving "plastic" items. Despite what we think, most common plastics do indeed degrade over time, sometimes quite rapidly. The Metropolitan Museum in New York had a small exhibit about this, with several acrylic items from the 1930's and 1940's that have basically slumped into a blob of amber slag. They know of no way to stop the process. It's a slow catalytic process within the material itself. Rolex watches are no different.

Because "Luminova" (read non-radioactive lume), from whatever source, is usually applied as a pigment in an organic (plastic) carrier, I would expect it to exhibit the same (completely unpredictable) patina over time. It may indeed still glow 500 years from now, but in regular room lighting, I would expect that it would certainly NOT appear to be the same color as the day it was applied!

As far as the rest of the watch goes, the same logic applies. If the dial face is painted, it will age and develope a patina. Ceramic bezel inserts will probably shift color, as much as very old cathedral stained glass has done the same. Not very much (?), but I'm not privy to the Rolex ceramic formula. It's possible that they could all turn bone white in 100 years. Let's wait and see!

That was awesome
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Old 21 March 2018, 09:17 AM   #16
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Thank god that todays vintage already have patina. I’d hate to have to wait a hundred years to maybe see something. ;)

Thanks for sharing your insights rq3.
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Old 21 March 2018, 02:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by rq3 View Post
Folks seem to be very confused as to HOW tritium was used. Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen gas. The radioactive tritium was (is) used to make a chemical compound, usually a plastic like polyethylene. The plastic was then, also, radioactive. The plastic was then ground into a fine powder. The fine powder was then used as the pigment in paint, with an organic carrier or solvent used to dissolve or thin the plastic so that it could be painted onto instrument hands and dials.

The solvent evaporates, leaving a film of radioactive plastic which glows in the dark because the tritium atoms make the atoms in the plastic glow (very simplistically stated).

Because the original "tritium paint" is basically some kind of plastic material, it will get darker or lighter over the years, even after the tritium half-life has long ago prevented the plastic from still glowing in the dark.

The "patina" of the remaining plastic depends on what it was originally. Different plastics react differently over the years with exposure to ultraviolet light from the sun, exposure to moisture, exposure to atmosphere (oxygen/nitrogen), exposure to finger oils and solvents from watch servicing, etc.

While it is possible to make a true enamel from tritium compounds or even Luminova type phosphors, to my knowledge Rolex has never done this.

By "true enamel", I mean a powdered glass that is melted and fused to the hands or dial at high temperature, NOT a solvent based enamel paint.

In short, all Rolex tritium features will have an completely unpredictable response to ageing, depending upon how they were originally manufactured.
After the tritium is about 36 years old (roughly 3 half lives), any change in patina is strictly due to aging of the plastic itself, and not due to any residual radioactivity from the tritium, which was very weak to begin with.

Many museums today have a huge issue with preserving "plastic" items. Despite what we think, most common plastics do indeed degrade over time, sometimes quite rapidly. The Metropolitan Museum in New York had a small exhibit about this, with several acrylic items from the 1930's and 1940's that have basically slumped into a blob of amber slag. They know of no way to stop the process. It's a slow catalytic process within the material itself. Rolex watches are no different.

Because "Luminova" (read non-radioactive lume), from whatever source, is usually applied as a pigment in an organic (plastic) carrier, I would expect it to exhibit the same (completely unpredictable) patina over time. It may indeed still glow 500 years from now, but in regular room lighting, I would expect that it would certainly NOT appear to be the same color as the day it was applied!

As far as the rest of the watch goes, the same logic applies. If the dial face is painted, it will age and develope a patina. Ceramic bezel inserts will probably shift color, as much as very old cathedral stained glass has done the same. Not very much (?), but I'm not privy to the Rolex ceramic formula. It's possible that they could all turn bone white in 100 years. Let's wait and see!
Very informative, thank you!
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Old 21 March 2018, 02:43 PM   #18
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Very informative post rq3. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 22 March 2018, 12:07 AM   #19
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Fascinating RQ3, thanks for sharing.
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Old 22 March 2018, 07:38 AM   #20
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I've always wondered what today's modern watches will look like 30-50 years from now...

As others have said some things will age, some won't. I do believe that the tritium/luminova will age as well but probably at a slower pace than early lume substances.

One good thing about modern watches is that they're more resistant to water/dust/debris (at least the more expensive ones) and that means less problems on the inside.
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Old 22 March 2018, 11:58 PM   #21
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^I've seen a few older watches that have suffered some kinds of degradation to the dial faces and have always assumed that the cause was some type of intrusion by 'outside' elements (I've always assumed water). I think it's interesting that when these watches are listed for sale, oftentimes the 'degradation' is marketed as a positive attribute.
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Old 23 March 2018, 04:55 AM   #22
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Wonderful insight rq3, one never stops learning from you folks!
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Old 26 March 2018, 12:25 AM   #23
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Folks seem to be very confused as to HOW tritium was used. Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen gas...
Thanks for that explanation, interesting to learn how it all works!

Also, FWIW, while the hour markers on my watch haven't glowed for a long time (as best I can recall as I haven't really made it a point to look), I noticed just last night that the pearl still puts out a decent blue glow for a long time after the room lights are turned out.
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Old 26 March 2018, 07:03 AM   #24
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If luminova's color would age, who's to say the color it ages to would be as appealing looking as tritium?

It could very well age to an ugly shade or tone. I guess we will see in the next 30 years..
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Old 11 May 2018, 05:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rq3 View Post
Folks seem to be very confused as to HOW tritium was used. Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen gas. The radioactive tritium was (is) used to make a chemical compound, usually a plastic like polyethylene. The plastic was then, also, radioactive. The plastic was then ground into a fine powder. The fine powder was then used as the pigment in paint, with an organic carrier or solvent used to dissolve or thin the plastic so that it could be painted onto instrument hands and dials.

The solvent evaporates, leaving a film of radioactive plastic which glows in the dark because the tritium atoms make the atoms in the plastic glow (very simplistically stated).

Because the original "tritium paint" is basically some kind of plastic material, it will get darker or lighter over the years, even after the tritium half-life has long ago prevented the plastic from still glowing in the dark.

The "patina" of the remaining plastic depends on what it was originally. Different plastics react differently over the years with exposure to ultraviolet light from the sun, exposure to moisture, exposure to atmosphere (oxygen/nitrogen), exposure to finger oils and solvents from watch servicing, etc.

While it is possible to make a true enamel from tritium compounds or even Luminova type phosphors, to my knowledge Rolex has never done this.

By "true enamel", I mean a powdered glass that is melted and fused to the hands or dial at high temperature, NOT a solvent based enamel paint.

In short, all Rolex tritium features will have an completely unpredictable response to ageing, depending upon how they were originally manufactured.
After the tritium is about 36 years old (roughly 3 half lives), any change in patina is strictly due to aging of the plastic itself, and not due to any residual radioactivity from the tritium, which was very weak to begin with.

Many museums today have a huge issue with preserving "plastic" items. Despite what we think, most common plastics do indeed degrade over time, sometimes quite rapidly. The Metropolitan Museum in New York had a small exhibit about this, with several acrylic items from the 1930's and 1940's that have basically slumped into a blob of amber slag. They know of no way to stop the process. It's a slow catalytic process within the material itself. Rolex watches are no different.

Because "Luminova" (read non-radioactive lume), from whatever source, is usually applied as a pigment in an organic (plastic) carrier, I would expect it to exhibit the same (completely unpredictable) patina over time. It may indeed still glow 500 years from now, but in regular room lighting, I would expect that it would certainly NOT appear to be the same color as the day it was applied!

As far as the rest of the watch goes, the same logic applies. If the dial face is painted, it will age and develope a patina. Ceramic bezel inserts will probably shift color, as much as very old cathedral stained glass has done the same. Not very much (?), but I'm not privy to the Rolex ceramic formula. It's possible that they could all turn bone white in 100 years. Let's wait and see!
Slow clap... ........................
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Old 11 May 2018, 12:28 PM   #26
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This would be a big negative for me with the new ceramic bezels, imagine how odd they’ll look in 30 years with worn cases, aged lume and a brand new looking bezel insert.

I hate the maxi case look but if I could only change on thing about the newer sub/gmt it’d be the bezel insert for the old style so it’d age with the Watch.

This is the human equivalent of a ceramic bezel Rolex in 40 years...


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Old 13 May 2018, 01:21 AM   #27
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RQ3 thanks, I found that fascinating!
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Old 17 May 2018, 02:35 PM   #28
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Great thread thank you!
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Old 19 May 2018, 12:49 AM   #29
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Thanks RQ3, super informative
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Old 20 May 2018, 01:45 AM   #30
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thanks for sharing such great info
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