How many of you went grey to purchase a Rolex since hype started?

[joa]

@PopArtSuzy: grey market dealers = second hand dealers.

there are two types of (legitimate) businesses that sell Rolex:
* Authorized dealers (ADs): Rolex delivers watches to those dealers, and they can sell those watches to whoever they want, but only at Rolex-approved prices.
* "Grey" dealers: any business that buys and sells Rolex watches. Rolex has no say in how they price their watches on offer. The watches can be in any condition, from new/unworn to old/used. A good grey dealer ensures that the watches they sell are legitimate products, that are neither fake nor stolen.

Some businesses (e.g. Bucherer) are hybrids, they are an AD but they also have an offering of second-hand watches.

Apart from businesses, one can of course also buy from individuals. I would then still say i bought the watch "grey", but of course not everyone who sells their watch is a watch dealer.

The fact they are called "grey" in English language is a bit unfortunate in my opinion, as it sounds as if there was a "black market" component in it (white+black=>grey) but i would suppose in our current environment (with lots of transparency in market places) this is misleading. A more accurate term to me would be "secondary market" dealer or simply "second hand" dealer.

As to how to find a "grey dealer", i would go on chrono24 and check the seller of watch. I would only buy from them if they have many confirmed transactions and positive reviews.

[garyk]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Why all the negative attitudes about grey market dealers?? Little history but grey market dealers were here for decades offering great discounts and superior service. These selected grey market dealers which we call “Trusted Sellers” here on TRF have supported this forum from the beginning.

Exactly right. One of my most favorite watches, a TT Breitling Navitimer came from a grey dealer back in the early nineties. I’m grateful for having bought that one and it was less than retail…

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by joa

hear hear... so no "it's my hard earned money" etc. etc. in that case

You seem to have conveniently omitted the

++
I do have a problem cutting a middle man into my funds though, discretionary or otherwise.
++

[destroxxiv]

I never have and don't intend on it. I plan on keeping these watches for my whole life and have benefitted from the AD relationship. That said, I am sometimes frustrated because a few of the pieces I want are extremely difficult to source, even for them.

[Pop Art Suzy]

Originally Posted by joa

@PopArtSuzy: grey market dealers = second hand dealers.

there are two types of (legitimate) businesses that sell Rolex:
* Authorized dealers (ADs): Rolex delivers watches to those dealers, and they can sell those watches to whoever they want, but only at Rolex-approved prices.
* "Grey" dealers: any business that buys and sells Rolex watches. Rolex has no say in how they price their watches on offer. The watches can be in any condition, from new/unworn to old/used. A good grey dealer ensures that the watches they sell are legitimate products, that are neither fake nor stolen.

Some businesses (e.g. Bucherer) are hybrids, they are an AD but they also have an offering of second-hand watches.

Apart from businesses, one can of course also buy from individuals. I would then still say i bought the watch "grey", but of course not everyone who sells their watch is a watch dealer.

The fact they are called "grey" in English language is a bit unfortunate in my opinion, as it sounds as if there was a "black market" component in it (white+black=>grey) but i would suppose in our current environment (with lots of transparency in market places) this is misleading. A more accurate term to me would be "secondary market" dealer or simply "second hand" dealer.

As to how to find a "grey dealer", i would go on chrono24 and check the seller of watch. I would only buy from them if they have many confirmed transactions and positive reviews.

Thank you so much for clarifying all of this for me. I really appreciate you taking the time.

The seller that I purchased my Rolex on eBay from sells many Rolexes on his eBay store, and he offers a 1 year warranty on the watches he sells. They're all pre-owned and in excellent condition. What would a seller like this be referred to as?

[joa]

Originally Posted by minute_man

You seem to have conveniently omitted the

++
I do have a problem cutting a middle man into my funds though, discretionary or otherwise.
++

on the contrary, it's precisely what struck me as so odd.

maybe this helps me understand your point: what is the most expensive model you would be willing to buy from an AD?

would you consider SOME Rolex model (from AD) as "irrational", or are they all totally sound investments (aehm sorry, consumer goods) as long as they come from AD?

[HogwldFLTR]

Originally Posted by Pop Art Suzy

I'm brand new to Rolex and I hate to sound like a noob, but what's considered a grey dealer? I bought mine pre-owned on eBay. Is that considered a grey dealer, or brand new from a non-Rolex AD? How do you find a grey dealer?

Originally Posted by joa

@PopArtSuzy: grey market dealers = second hand dealers.

there are two types of (legitimate) businesses that sell Rolex:
* Authorized dealers (ADs): Rolex delivers watches to those dealers, and they can sell those watches to whoever they want, but only at Rolex-approved prices.
* "Grey" dealers: any business that buys and sells Rolex watches. Rolex has no say in how they price their watches on offer. The watches can be in any condition, from new/unworn to old/used. A good grey dealer ensures that the watches they sell are legitimate products, that are neither fake nor stolen.

Some businesses (e.g. Bucherer) are hybrids, they are an AD but they also have an offering of second-hand watches.

Apart from businesses, one can of course also buy from individuals. I would then still say i bought the watch "grey", but of course not everyone who sells their watch is a watch dealer.

The fact they are called "grey" in English language is a bit unfortunate in my opinion, as it sounds as if there was a "black market" component in it (white+black=>grey) but i would suppose in our current environment (with lots of transparency in market places) this is misleading. A more accurate term to me would be "secondary market" dealer or simply "second hand" dealer.

As to how to find a "grey dealer", i would go on chrono24 and check the seller of watch. I would only buy from them if they have many confirmed transactions and positive reviews.

Hi Suzy, to add a bit more information, the buy and sell section (Classified) on this forum has a list of "boutiques" which are the most supportive grey dealers for the forum. They all have great reputations and offer high quality either near-new or used watches. They can be trusted as far as the quality of the watch received and their cooperation in resolving any issues with the purchase. On the other hand, eBay is much better than it used to be. They now have the ability to verify authenticity but there are still potential issues in dealing with unknown sellers. It's improved a lot over the old days when it was more of a Russian roulette game when purchasing on that platform. In the past I purchased a watch from eBay that was "warranted." When it came time to use the warranty the seller wouldn't respond. It is of course one thing to promise something and another to actually deliver on the promise.

[joa]

Originally Posted by Pop Art Suzy

Thank you so much for clarifying all of this for me. I really appreciate you taking the time.

The seller that I purchased my Rolex on eBay from sells many Rolexes on his eBay store, and he offers a 1 year warranty on the watches he sells. They're all pre-owned and in excellent condition. What would a seller like this be referred to as?

in my view, a grey market dealer = secondary market dealer = second hand watch dealer. And assuming all the info stated is true and there is no contradicting fine print, a good one (because of the offered warranty).

[Pop Art Suzy]

Originally Posted by HogwldFLTR

Hi Suzy, to add a bit more information, the buy and sell section (Classified) on this forum has a list of "boutiques" which are the most supportive grey dealers for the forum. They all have great reputations and offer high quality either near-new or used watches. They can be trusted as far as the quality of the watch received and their cooperation in resolving any issues with the purchase. On the other hand, eBay is much better than it used to be. They now have the ability to verify authenticity but there are still potential issues in dealing with unknown sellers. It's improved a lot over the old days when it was more of a Russian roulette game when purchasing on that platform.

I can see that. I feel very trustworthy of this seller that I dealt with and he has over 5k feedback and all 100% positive. All Rolex watches. I already had to send my watch back to him because the date wasn't switching over, so I shipped back to him and he fixed it within a few days. Been working perfectly ever since.

I know there are risks with buying pre-owned, but I'm impatient, once I knew I wanted to purchase a Rolex, I wasn't willing to wait and deal with the BS of waiting with an AD, especially since the closest AD here is an hour away and I have zero purchasing history. Didn't want to wait 1+ years for a Rolex watch.

[Pop Art Suzy]

Originally Posted by joa

in my view, a grey market dealer = secondary market dealer = second hand watch dealer. And assuming all the info stated is true and there is no contradicting fine print, a good one (because of the offered warranty).

Thank you, that really helps a lot. I appreciate that.

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by joa

on the contrary, it's precisely what struck me as so odd.

maybe this helps me understand your point: what is the most expensive model you would be willing to buy from an AD?

would you consider SOME Rolex model (from AD) as "irrational", or are they all totally sound investments (aehm sorry, consumer goods) as long as they come from AD?

If that struck you it would still have made sense to include in bold...

The only "irrational" thing in my view is paying 2x or 3x retail to middle-men who offer no value, just because they practically hijacked the supply chain and you need to flex.

If your question is indirectly about my financial circumstances, that is irrelevant and quite frankly, tres gauche.

Carry on

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Mystro

Why all the negative attitudes about grey market dealers?? Little history but grey market dealers were here for decades offering great discounts and superior service. These selected grey market dealers which we call “Trusted Sellers” here on TRF have supported this forum from the beginning.

I've never understood this either. (Further, now, many ADs are secondary dealers.)

The secondary dealer I dealt with had a high level of integrity, was extremely professional, and met and exceeded all of my expectations.

[alphadweller]

I don't go grey these days because of the price. I did go grey in the past when unworn watches traded below MSRP.

[joa]

Originally Posted by minute_man

The only "irrational" thing in my view is paying 2x or 3x retail to middle-men who offer no value, just because they practically hijacked the supply chain and you need to flex.

If your question is about my financial circumstances, that is irrelevant and quite frankly, tres gauche.

Carry on

i was merely wondering if you would'd agree that some Rolex watches have "idealistic" value and therefore can be considered to be more than pure consumer goods with an objective "fair price".

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by minute_man

If that struck you it would still have made sense to include in bold...

The only "irrational" thing in my view is paying 2x or 3x retail to middle-men who offer no value, just because they practically hijacked the supply chain and you need to flex.

If your question is indirectly about my financial circumstances, that is irrelevant and quite frankly, tres gauche.

Carry on

Your opinion that it is irrational is perfectly valid, but experiences and viewpoints do differ.

I don't understand how someone could pay mounds of money for a luxury car (that is less reliable than a car of less than half the price), drive it off the lot, and watch it immediately lose tens of thousands of dollars. I have a friend that does that. He does not understand how I could buy an expensive mechanical watch. He loves his luxury cars; they make him happy. I love my watch; it makes me happy.

You work hard for your money and you have all the right in the world to spend it how you wish. I respect that. But what seems irrational to you might work well for someone else, and vice versa. With respect to offering value, the value the middle man offered to me was that they had the watch I wanted and they would sell it to me, which an AD did not/would not; I judged the premium they were asking to be fair relative to the value I placed on owning the watch.

As we know, the life circumstances that may lead someone to buy a Rolex from a secondary dealer are as diverse as Rolex buyers are themselves, and go well beyond "flexing".

[minute_man]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Your opinion that it is irrational is perfectly valid, but experiences and viewpoints do differ.

I don't understand how someone could pay mounds of money for a luxury car (that is less reliable than a car of less than half the price), drive it off the lot, and watch it immediately lose tens of thousands of dollars. I have a friend that does that. He does not understand how I could buy an expensive mechanical watch. He loves his luxury cars; they make him happy. I love my watch; it makes me happy.

You work hard for your money and you have all the right in the world to spend it how you wish. I respect that. But what seems irrational to you might work well for someone else, and vice versa. With respect to offering value, the value the middle man offered to me was that they had the watch I wanted and they would sell it to me, which an AD did not/would not; I judged the premium they were asking to be fair relative to the value I placed on owning the watch.

As we know, the life circumstances that may lead someone to buy a Rolex from a secondary dealer are as diverse as Rolex buyers are themselves, and go well beyond "flexing".

Now I can totally agree with you, friend. On all the above and even more so on the last one.
That is why I used "my view", "to me" "I" etc 1st person references in my posts. Those are my views.
There are facts, too, about this whole game and how things have come to this point but that has been discussed ad nauseam. Thank you for engaging in this conversation.

[1995akcoop]

Used to go grey to save money. At these prices, I WILL NEVER GO GREY AGAIN


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gebbeth]

Grey dealers are not "evil." There seems to be an underlying tone that they are just because people have more dollars than sense. They are just following the market.

And it works both ways. If we can get screaming deals on watches going grey, we can't then complain that some are charging way above retail because the stupid watchmakers want to maintain "exclusivity."

[BuddaLun]

Originally Posted by Gab27

I've never understood this either. (Further, now, many ADs are secondary dealers.)

People want to feel good about THEIR decisions, that’s all. Some will come here and die on the “AD only” hill as evidenced by folks in this thread. Personally, I find it fascinating. Hopefully my tone was okay…!

[Porkbelli]

Originally Posted by gebbeth

and it works both ways. If we can get screaming deals on watches going grey, we can't then complain that some are charging way above retail because the stupid watchmakers want to maintain "exclusivity."

+1

[bblewis]

Originally Posted by dmash

if you guys just 'dont' all the prices come back to reality. you know it's that simple right?

I don't think the group of us on the Rolex Forum controls enough of the market to change global aftermarket pricing.

[joa]

Originally Posted by BuddaLun

People want to feel good about THEIR decisions, that’s all. Some will come here and die on the “AD only” hill as evidenced by folks in this thread. Personally, I find it fascinating. Hopefully my tone was okay…!

41k for WG Pepsi at AD? => cool! Rolex recommends this price!
14k for SS Submariner at grey market? => are you crazy! it's twice the MSRP!

go figure...

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by minute_man

Now I can totally agree with you, friend. On all the above and even more so on the last one.
That is why I used "my view", "to me" "I" etc 1st person references in my posts. Those are my views.
There are facts, too, about this whole game and how things have come to this point but that has been discussed ad nauseam. Thank you for engaging in this conversation.

I totally respect those views and just wanted to offer my experience.

Believe me when I say, I certainly wish I could have gotten my watch at an AD, but it was not meant to be. I recognize that to ADs and secondary dealers, these watches are merchandise they sell to make a living, but I really wanted my Submariner to mark a few very significant life milestones. It had (and has) significant meaning to me.

[anodyne13]

America is just one giant “grey dealer” it’s called capitalism, and when market price is above MSRP, then the AD is socialism. So ask yourself, are you an American who is gonna go out and buy what you want, when you want!! Or are you a Commi relying on artificial price caps and rationing????

(In my case the answer is both, bought one grey and one AD)

[Son Goku]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

The Rate ADs are losing Rolex partnerships, a lot of these “never have and never will” commenters might have to reconsider.

This should actually help those that live in an area that will still have ADs. This would mean that the concentration increases for ADs especially in large metro areas, who already get a higher proportion of watches. The consolidation of ADs is going to help consumers particularly if you live in a densely populated area as Rolex isn't going to scale back production just because it's consolidating ADs.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by Son Goku

This should actually help those that live in an area that will still have ADs. This would mean that the concentration increases for ADs especially in large metro areas, who already get a higher proportion of watches. The consolidation of ADs is going to help consumers particularly if you live in a densely populated area as Rolex isn't going to scale back production just because it's consolidating ADs.

I really don’t think this will help non VIP customers in anyway at all.

Especially customers that have taken years to build relationships at smaller ADS. Now you’re supposed to what, stroll into Rolex on 5th Ave in NYC, tell them your local AD promised you a Daytona or GMT, so now you’re expecting them to deliver it?

Closing down the mom and pop ADs boosts exclusivity of the brand and increases rolex revenues. Instead of selling to a small AD for 40% of the MSRP, they will now sell full price directly from Rolex. IMO it doesn’t help us regular customers at all.

[Son Goku]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

I really don’t think this will help non VIP customers in anyway at all.

Especially customers that have taken years to build relationships at smaller ADS. Now you’re supposed to what, stroll into Rolex on 5th Ave in NYC, tell them your local AD promised you a Daytona or GMT, so now you’re expecting them to deliver it?

Closing down the mom and pop ADs boosts exclusivity of the brand and increases rolex revenues. Instead of selling to a small AD for 40% of the MSRP, they will now sell full price directly from Rolex. IMO it doesn’t help us regular customers at all.

I don't follow. What do you mean sell full price vs 40% off? With the exception of one AD in Geneva there are no ADs owned by Rolex themselves. While Rolex may create their own boutiques, that is not Rolex's operating model today. A chain AD such as Tourneau pays the same for a watch as a mom and pop AD.

Again if you read my statement you'll see that I was specifically referring to large metro areas. I don't agree that it boosts exclusivity and would only agree that it does in a geographic sense. What it does do is reallocate the 1M or so watches that Rolex makes to a smaller distribution chain. This will naturally increase the concentration of watches at the ADs that remain in business.

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by Son Goku

I don't follow. What do you mean sell full price vs 40% off? With the exception of one AD in Geneva there are no ADs owned by Rolex themselves. While Rolex may create their own boutiques, that is not Rolex's operating model today. A chain AD such as Tourneau pays the same for a watch as a mom and pop AD.

Again if you read my statement you'll see that I was specifically referring to large metro areas. I don't agree that it boosts exclusivity and would only agree that it does in a geographic sense. What it does do is reallocate the 1M or so watches that Rolex makes to a smaller distribution chain. This will naturally increase the concentration of watches at the ADs that remain in business.

What I’m saying is that my suspicion is that rolex is moving away from the “AD” model almost entirely. Perhaps big chains like Tourneau will keep their partnerships, but IF rolex becomes a more or less exclusive boutique only point of sale, they will continue to sell just as many watches but charge full retail, as opposed to having to sell to ADs for 40%.

But my main point regardless of all that was that rolex axing partnerships with small ADs is bad for normal customer, for all the reasons I mentioned.

[majidessa]

The only watch that I'm willing to go Grey for is a white face SS Daytona but not at 3x of the retail price! because in my eyes it is the best looking watch and it is the hardest to get even before this watch bubble ever strated!

[majidessa]

Originally Posted by Chadridv

What I’m saying is that my suspicion is that rolex is moving away from the “AD” model almost entirely. Perhaps big chains like Tourneau will keep their partnerships, but IF rolex becomes a more or less exclusive boutique only point of sale, they will continue to sell just as many watches but charge full retail, as opposed to having to sell to ADs for 40%.

But my main point regardless of all that was that rolex axing partnerships with small ADs is bad for normal customer, for all the reasons I mentioned.

Why do you think Rolex is still playing by the same old book rules years ago! Maybe AD margins is not as high as it used to be, ADs are selling all their inventory at full price and Rolex knows that so the smart think to do is reduce AD margins.

Few years ago Rolex used to give ADs high margins in order to allow them to discount the prices and move inventory so at the end their net margin was around 20%.