Concerning service....

[R.W.T.]

I am going to be a little obtuse here...not being specific regarding persons or particular watches...but to raise some points.

Servicing of a vintage Rolex watch is a process that requires many things in order to do it right.

Extensive knowledge of the marque and at least a familiarity with the era of watches one is dealing with.

Passion for the marque and the nuances that make a vintage watch precious to the owner.

Training on Rolex specifics and how they are different and how certain aspects of older versus newer come in to play.

Accessibility to vintage parts whether NOS or used and having the time and also the passion to try and track that down if something is needed.

Understanding the parameters of standards of the various vintages and being able to take some things into consideration with regard to acceptable wear and tolerances for current wearability, versus costs and practicality of different levels of restoration. I think things should be as good as they possibly can be...but for instance I have now a GF 3578 Oyster with a calibre 710 in for service. It is sentimental to the owner...but if it were NOS it would be worth less than $1000.00. How much is it worth...to put it back to perfect? The dial is refinished. The case is showing heavy brassing. Here we have to decide, is it worth putting more than double the watches value mint into it, to make it a restored version that really probably wouldn't be worth as much as that, or make it function as it should with cosmetic and originality issues that are acceptable to the owner, the cost of which will almost apex the current value once we are finished?

Tools to carry out various aspects of Rolex specific repair.

Knowing the best places to outsource work that requires specialization skills that one either does not have the facility or ability to perform themselves.

Ethics. Doing what you say you will do and standing behind that.

When I started working on Rolex, I never had any intention of being in business to work on other people's watches. I was in a temporary financial position to take the time to learn how to service my own watches from a Certified Rolex Watchmaker with some 75 years at the bench, a former AD.

People began contacting me for "service" and I don't mean service of the watch but including that. Service is a very distinct term. Here is what Oxford says:

Service:

the action of helping or doing work for someone: millions are involved in voluntary service.
• an act of assistance: he has done us a great service | he volunteered his services as a driver.
• assistance or advice given to customers during and after the sale of goods: they aim to provide better quality of service.

The reason I am discussing this is, everyone wants "a bargain."

The old adage "you get what you pay for" has never seemed more appropriate.

I was just recently given a watch that was "serviced" within the year or two by a "shop" if memory serves that does a high volume of Rolex.

The owner was told specifically on the watches return, that it was NOT waterproof and not to get it near water. I don't warranty water resistance and many years ago Bob Ridley and I discussed the liabilities of doing so for an individual in business. He brought it up. I state very clearly that the watch WILL be water resistant and tested when it leaves my shop but no warranty of water resistance is expressed or implied. Most people that do business with me, are familiar with me and know my level of scrutiny and my willingness to remedy a situation. They understand that things come into play that are beyond the repair person's control and that my intention is to make the watch work like it should within given parameters.

Back to this particular watch. On inspection I found that the watch was dry. For the time period that had elapsed since "service" I could not see how the lubrication could have dispersed to such a degree. On the timing machine the amplitude was low and the beat error was about 3.5 MS on a calibre 1065. Rolex wouldn't accept anything more than 1.5 TOPS if that and I wouldn't let it out the door with more than .5. It was obvious to me that whoever did the work...didn't.

The crown and tube gaskets had not been changed in 10 years if that.

I was asked to put a different crystal on the watch and found in removing the bezel that it was loose to the point where it wouldn't seal.

The reversing wheels in the automatic portion had caked on MBDS grease...that while when dry does not come off easily in the cleaning machine, one can at least try and remove the caking with a fiberglass pen and re-clean them to a point where nothing is affecting the operation. The point being is they weren't clean and they weren't lubricated.

In assessing this particular watch in my honest opinion, nothing outside of possible regulation had been done and it reportedly had been "serviced". The price paid was for complete service.

The first thing I set out to do was to make the watch water resistant. I found a crystal that matched the customer's request (an old cyclops with the soft plexi and rounded edge). I polished it well enough to look very nice but not distorting the original shape and magnification of the date. I tightened the bezel with my $6500.00 Rolex 1006 bezel tool. Replaced the gaskets in the tube and crown and back and proceeded to check it in a WATER tester and found it satisfactory. Why did the previous shop find it necessary to SPECIFICALLY state that the watch was NOT water resistant and not to get it near water...because they didn't do anything to make it so.

The watch went through a lot of processes but now it is keeping chronometer spec time in 6 positions with a beat error of ZERO in the flat (and these don't have an adjustment you have to manually set the collet on the balance wheel), is fully waterproof and has an amplitude in the flat of 300+ on a 1065 calibre.

It's been on my wrist for three days and it is -4 seconds total.

I take pictures of each watch completely torn down before I put the parts through the cleaning machine. I will give credit where credit is due, I got that from Bob Ridley. I didn't understand it at the time...but I did when I started working. Nobody knows me. For all anyone knows I do the same thing the people who worked on this guy's watch did. I adjust the timing...say it's old and not waterproof and hand it back to them and charge for a full service. When you see YOUR watch in pieces..with YOUR movement serial number on the main plate...you KNOW that it was serviced. While it is interesting to see all the little pieces lined out...the reason is so the customer knows that they're not being taken for a ride.

The skills, the knowledge, the tools, the dedication...it comes at price. We have unseen overhead too. It's not just the time spent on the watch that can be extensive...it's the outlay for the tools...the cleaning supplies....the time spent learning...the time spent communicating with the owner...the time spent sourcing parts etc...It's not a bargain necessarily in monetary terms in the owner's mind...but in peace of mind...you betcha and for what we do...even though the cost may run up substantially...for the level and amount of work you get from a really good service....so much is involved on our end...it's a steal.

Thanks for the space and kudos to my fellow watch repairman who read and participate in this forum and who do quality work with integrity. We have a standard. We do our best to provide "service".

[CaveDweller]

I can see where you’re coming from, and appreciate the time you take (pun intended) to look after a watch properly

I recently had my 1988 16030 / 3035 serviced by an independent, in an attempt to keep it as original as possible. Although the guy is quite young, he’s been through the whole WOSTEP thing, and seems to have a passion for watches, Rolex in particular. He was quite thorough in his examination of the watch before we agreed on what work needed doing (basically a movement service), pressure tested it, stuck it on a timer etc – left it with him for 5 weeks.

He took photos throughout the process, gave me all the parts that were swapped out, all the part (Rolex) packaging that he put back in, and gave me a valuation on replacing the watch, together with a two year guarantee on his work.

Same deal as yourself – pressure tested OK, but take it easy on an (fairly) old Rolex

If I were to have one “small” criticism of the service, he just had to give it a “light polish” – couldn’t resist it. I told the guy “Yeah, go after the scratches, but leave the dinks”, but no, he had to go and do it

It’s only really in one place on the top left lug, but I know this watch well, and look at it more than once a day. To me (once I’d calmed down a bit), the battle scar had simply been swapped for a service scar, and I’ve since put it down to “the exuberance of youth” and moved on. The watch has suffered worse during its lifetime.

Would I use him again ? – probably – having first confiscated his polishing wheel. Would I let him anywhere near the watch in my avatar (6605/1065), absolutely not

And this is my point – “good enough” just doesn’t cut it when you have something as near to perfect as you can find it. And on “sensitive” movements, it takes a sympathetic person who knows the movement, and will respect every aspect of the watch in question

That you do so, regardless of value, does you great credit, and gives me (and people like me with these things) two things – hope, and trust

Without these – we’d be lost – better to put it in a glass case on the wall

Do not for one moment underestimate the value of what you do - genuinely “caring” is everything ……

[Sundaydriver]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I am going to be a little obtuse here...not being specific regarding persons or particular watches...but to raise some points.

Servicing of a vintage Rolex watch is a process that requires many things in order to do it right.

Extensive knowledge of the marque and at least a familiarity with the era of watches one is dealing with.

Passion for the marque and the nuances that make a vintage watch precious to the owner.

Training on Rolex specifics and how they are different and how certain aspects of older versus newer come in to play.

Accessibility to vintage parts whether NOS or used and having the time and also the passion to try and track that down if something is needed.

Understanding the parameters of standards of the various vintages and being able to take some things into consideration with regard to acceptable wear and tolerances for current wearability, versus costs and practicality of different levels of restoration. I think things should be as good as they possibly can be...but for instance I have now a GF 3578 Oyster with a calibre 710 in for service. It is sentimental to the owner...but if it were NOS it would be worth less than $1000.00. How much is it worth...to put it back to perfect? The dial is refinished. The case is showing heavy brassing. Here we have to decide, is it worth putting more than double the watches value mint into it, to make it a restored version that really probably wouldn't be worth as much as that, or make it function as it should with cosmetic and originality issues that are acceptable to the owner, the cost of which will almost apex the current value once we are finished?

Tools to carry out various aspects of Rolex specific repair.

Knowing the best places to outsource work that requires specialization skills that one either does not have the facility or ability to perform themselves.

Ethics. Doing what you say you will do and standing behind that.

When I started working on Rolex, I never had any intention of being in business to work on other people's watches. I was in a temporary financial position to take the time to learn how to service my own watches from a Certified Rolex Watchmaker with some 75 years at the bench, a former AD.

People began contacting me for "service" and I don't mean service of the watch but including that. Service is a very distinct term. Here is what Oxford says:

Service:

the action of helping or doing work for someone: millions are involved in voluntary service.
• an act of assistance: he has done us a great service | he volunteered his services as a driver.
• assistance or advice given to customers during and after the sale of goods: they aim to provide better quality of service.

The reason I am discussing this is, everyone wants "a bargain."

The old adage "you get what you pay for" has never seemed more appropriate.

I was just recently given a watch that was "serviced" within the year or two by a "shop" if memory serves that does a high volume of Rolex.

The owner was told specifically on the watches return, that it was NOT waterproof and not to get it near water. I don't warranty water resistance and many years ago Bob Ridley and I discussed the liabilities of doing so for an individual in business. He brought it up. I state very clearly that the watch WILL be water resistant and tested when it leaves my shop but no warranty of water resistance is expressed or implied. Most people that do business with me, are familiar with me and know my level of scrutiny and my willingness to remedy a situation. They understand that things come into play that are beyond the repair person's control and that my intention is to make the watch work like it should within given parameters.

Back to this particular watch. On inspection I found that the watch was dry. For the time period that had elapsed since "service" I could not see how the lubrication could have dispersed to such a degree. On the timing machine the amplitude was low and the beat error was about 3.5 MS on a calibre 1065. Rolex wouldn't accept anything more than 1.5 TOPS if that and I wouldn't let it out the door with more than .5. It was obvious to me that whoever did the work...didn't.

The crown and tube gaskets had not been changed in 10 years if that.

I was asked to put a different crystal on the watch and found in removing the bezel that it was loose to the point where it wouldn't seal.

The reversing wheels in the automatic portion had caked on MBDS grease...that while when dry does not come off easily in the cleaning machine, one can at least try and remove the caking with a fiberglass pen and re-clean them to a point where nothing is affecting the operation. The point being is they weren't clean and they weren't lubricated.

In assessing this particular watch in my honest opinion, nothing outside of possible regulation had been done and it reportedly had been "serviced". The price paid was for complete service.

The first thing I set out to do was to make the watch water resistant. I found a crystal that matched the customer's request (an old cyclops with the soft plexi and rounded edge). I polished it well enough to look very nice but not distorting the original shape and magnification of the date. I tightened the bezel with my $6500.00 Rolex 1006 bezel tool. Replaced the gaskets in the tube and crown and back and proceeded to check it in a WATER tester and found it satisfactory. Why did the previous shop find it necessary to SPECIFICALLY state that the watch was NOT water resistant and not to get it near water...because they didn't do anything to make it so.

The watch went through a lot of processes but now it is keeping chronometer spec time in 6 positions with a beat error of ZERO in the flat (and these don't have an adjustment you have to manually set the collet on the balance wheel), is fully waterproof and has an amplitude in the flat of 300+ on a 1065 calibre.

It's been on my wrist for three days and it is -4 seconds total.

I take pictures of each watch completely torn down before I put the parts through the cleaning machine. I will give credit where credit is due, I got that from Bob Ridley. I didn't understand it at the time...but I did when I started working. Nobody knows me. For all anyone knows I do the same thing the people who worked on this guy's watch did. I adjust the timing...say it's old and not waterproof and hand it back to them and charge for a full service. When you see YOUR watch in pieces..with YOUR movement serial number on the main plate...you KNOW that it was serviced. While it is interesting to see all the little pieces lined out...the reason is so the customer knows that they're not being taken for a ride.

The skills, the knowledge, the tools, the dedication...it comes at price. We have unseen overhead too. It's not just the time spent on the watch that can be extensive...it's the outlay for the tools...the cleaning supplies....the time spent learning...the time spent communicating with the owner...the time spent sourcing parts etc...It's not a bargain necessarily in monetary terms in the owner's mind...but in peace of mind...you betcha and for what we do...even though the cost may run up substantially...for the level and amount of work you get from a really good service....so much is involved on our end...it's a steal.

Thanks for the space and kudos to my fellow watch repairman who read and participate in this forum and who do quality work with integrity. We have a standard. We do our best to provide "service".

I'm still in awe of the service you did on my Rolex 6084. It was worth every penny. Thanks!!

[unreformed66]

Well Tommy you can at least take solace in the fact that the last guy at least didn't butcher anything while he was in there. I could tell stories for hours about the things I've found done to watches by previous "repairmen" in my years at the bench. Years ago when I was running a retail watch repair shop I had a customer come in with a ladies Rolex that he had bought for his wife used from an AD. It wouldn't keep time and they had advertised it as freshly serviced. It looked good at first glance, nice and clean and shiny. Until I removed the self winding bridge. The rest of the movement was filthy. So they had removed the self winding parts and most probably run them through an ultrasonic cleaner whole and then put the whole thing back together and called it serviced. I saw him the other day and he asked if I would service her watch again. It's been over 15 years since I did it the last time. I think I must have done well..lol.

[CaveDiver]

"The old adage "you get what you pay for" has never seemed more appropriate."

Tommy, in this business area, sometimes you don't get what you pay for. It's kinda like the "buy the seller". Past not always indicative of the future.

[Kickstart]

Interesting Post RWT and maybe you might comment on what I'm about to ask.

Recently I spoke to an AD on the phone and asked about cleaning, lube and a new crystal for a 1002 and without seeing the watch I was told $925 plus parts, $200 to polish and $125 shipping. I asked where it would be shipped to and was told TX.
Are these numbers within reason or out of the Park?

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by unreformed66

Well Tommy you can at least take solace in the fact that the last guy at least didn't butcher anything while he was in there. I could tell stories for hours about the things I've found done to watches by previous "repairmen" in my years at the bench. Years ago when I was running a retail watch repair shop I had a customer come in with a ladies Rolex that he had bought for his wife used from an AD. It wouldn't keep time and they had advertised it as freshly serviced. It looked good at first glance, nice and clean and shiny. Until I removed the self winding bridge. The rest of the movement was filthy. So they had removed the self winding parts and most probably run them through an ultrasonic cleaner whole and then put the whole thing back together and called it serviced. I saw him the other day and he asked if I would service her watch again. It's been over 15 years since I did it the last time. I think I must have done well..lol.

Yep...much of the time and the older the watch is..the more we are looking to undo what was done wrong.

A gentleman here sent me finally an 1120 that had been a problem. some body...lost the cap jewel to the upper escape wheel so they simply punched the whole thing out and put a regular hole jewel in. Nice job!

And nothing really wrong inside here but...how in the world do you not notice a beat error of 3.5 ms?
Saying it's not waterproof and handing it back with gaskets in the crown and tube as hard as formica...

Head scratch...

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by Kickstart

Interesting Post RWT and maybe you might comment on what I'm about to ask.

Recently I spoke to an AD on the phone and asked about cleaning, lube and a new crystal for a 1002 and without seeing the watch I was told $925 plus parts, $200 to polish and $125 shipping. I asked where it would be shipped to and was told TX.
Are these numbers within reason or out of the Park?

I'm not sure it is really proper for me to comment specifically. Remember that a dealer is going to make money on the repair....they are in business. They are in a position where they are responsible to an extent for the handling and servicing of your watch, even if they are sending it out.

I do know also that they are bound by a lot of rules from the parent company. Each repair has to be logged into a data base with the case and movement serial numbers and every thing done has to be logged and every part logged that is used on a watch.

This is also why a lot of AD's will not involve themselves with vintage watches with obsolete parts maybe. It's too difficult to obtain new parts sometimes and I'm not sure how it would really work for them to utilize a good used part in a situation like that where no new parts were available to replace one that was no longer serviceable. Also...they can't sell parts or provide parts to anyone they contract work to who is not a CW 21 watchmaker.

That is a whole other discussion or two really.

They also have guidelines sent to them on pricing of service. It runs from wholesale to max retail on each type of watch, for instance, Chronograph, Automatic, Hand Wind, Sports model, ladies with calendar, men's with calendar, men's without calendar, ladies without calendar, etc.. If they go OVER those prices there could be some heat from upstairs.

Excepting the polish extra, it even sounds like they could be sending it to RSC in Dallas. The only thing that really deters me from thinking that is the watch has a 15xx calibre and Rolex turns them down daily.

I have no idea what the pricing guidelines say at this point. I haven't seen the current guidelines. The last ones I know of are from roughly 8 years ago or so. I'm sure like everything they have increased.

All I know is, my friends who are the CW 21 guys and AWCI guys that work at the AD's here...constantly tell me I don't charge enough.

:-)

That may be. But at least everyone isn't saying the opposite. :-)

[Lena01]

hi all, my name is Lena)) I am a new member here )) thanks for your post , nice to meet you all here, in this web site

[1945Datejust]

Hey folks. Outing myself as the owner of the above mentioned 6605. Would like to really say thanks to Tommy for the excellent work and restoration of sorts on my 60 year old family heirloom. For those in Houston, I will not reveal the AD I took the watch to but it starts with, I.W. . Anyway big kudos to Tommy. He's the man on vintage watches! Thanks again Tommy!