the Coronavirus outbreak thread

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by SMD

Florida man does logic.

C'mon guys. We know there are people here all over the political spectrum.

That's the beauty of the discussion. Lots of viewpoints.

My theory is I never learn much from people I agree with, so differing viewpoints are good.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Blansky

C'mon guys. We know there are people here all over the political spectrum.

That's the beauty of the discussion. Lots of viewpoints.

My theory is I never learn much from people I agree with, so differing viewpoints are good.

You are absolutely right. As you noticed it was him that came after me. I appreciate you bringing that up. I’ll just ignore him from here forward.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Blansky

C'mon guys. We know there are people here all over the political spectrum.

That's the beauty of the discussion. Lots of viewpoints.

My theory is I never learn much from people I agree with, so differing viewpoints are good.

My only issue with the viewpoint of “we need to get back to business” is simply that this viewpoint is the natural progression of those who initially thought this was a hoax, then advanced to believing that was no worse than the regular flu and now say our mitigation efforts are doing more harm than good.

The holders of these opinions have been consistently wrong because their opinions are not based on anything more than a “feeling”.

Similarly, no one here has been able to offer anything more than speculation that the effects of a shutdown are going to be worse than the effects of a pandemic let loose with no social distancing.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

My only issue with the viewpoint of “we need to get back to business” is simply that this viewpoint is the natural progression of those who initially thought this was a hoax, then advanced to believing that was no worse than the regular flu and now say our mitigation efforts are doing more harm than good.

The holders of these opinions have been consistently wrong because their opinions are not based on anything more than a “feeling”.

Similarly, no one here has been able to offer anything more than speculation that the effects of a shutdown are going to be worse than the effects of a pandemic let loose with no social distancing.

I find the comments from the last 177 pages interesting and thought provoking and some range from "JANE, YOU IGNORANT SLUT", to " I LOVE YOU, MAN." And everything in between.

We do have to remember this is a pretty stressful time for most people and kind of like, Pearl Harbor was bombed, we declared war, and now the calm before the storm. Because soon the real action starts and nobody knows how it will end, but there will be a lot of death.

[Star Ferry]

Even with fewer folks on the roads, more people in Italy and Spain are dying than usual. And it's more than the reported COVID deaths.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...y-mystery.html

[Dawg2]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

Even with fewer folks on the roads, more people in Italy and Spain are dying than usual. And it's more than the reported COVID deaths.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...y-mystery.html

Not surprising and goes in line with what I was saying earlier:

1) The COVID 19 death rate will be higher since the dead do not get tested.
2) Those requiring medical care (non-COVID) will die as access to medical care is greatly reduced.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I find the comments from the last 177 pages interesting and thought provoking and some range from "JANE, YOU IGNORANT SLUT", to " I LOVE YOU, MAN." And everything in between.

We do have to remember this is a pretty stressful time for most people and kind of like, Pearl Harbor was bombed, we declared war, and now the calm before the storm. Because soon the real action starts and nobody knows how it will end, but there will be a lot of death.

Sorry, I guess I should have done a separate post as I had no intent of questioning your viewpoint there.

I respect everyone’s opinion as long as it is based on facts.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

My only issue with the viewpoint of “we need to get back to business” is simply that this viewpoint is the natural progression of those who initially thought this was a hoax, then advanced to believing that was no worse than the regular flu and now say our mitigation efforts are doing more harm than good.

The holders of these opinions have been consistently wrong because their opinions are not based on anything more than a “feeling”.

Similarly, no one here has been able to offer anything more than speculation that the effects of a shutdown are going to be worse than the effects of a pandemic let loose with no social distancing.

For many people the effects are indeed no worse or even less than the flu. Then you have the other side of the coin especially for people who are obese, diabetic, heart disease, etc.

You are trying to speak in absolutes about a virus that has many different risk profiles. That sure sounds like “feelings” to me.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by ronricks

For many people the effects are indeed no worse or even less than the flu. Then you have the other side of the coin especially for people who are obese, diabetic, heart disease, etc.

You are trying to speak in absolutes about a virus that has many different risk profiles. That sure sounds like “feelings” to me.

I have always viewed the “absolute” in terms that this is a serious virus but that it does affect different populations differently.

My earlier post made it clear that one person had very little problems with the effects while her husband felt like death for two weeks. Both were extremely healthy young athletes. Both will tell you that this is serious.

My personal “feelings” are that people are not taking this seriously enough, even on my own block. Well, until about 8:00 pm last night.

Do you feel this is not serious? If so, why not?

I am always open to different viewpoints but some of the arguments I have seen range from baseless conspiracy theories about 5g and/or a world domination plot.

Some people with whom I disagree with on fundamentals posit very reasonable views on how to start ramping back up the economy.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

My only issue with the viewpoint of “we need to get back to business” is simply that this viewpoint is the natural progression of those who initially thought this was a hoax, then advanced to believing that was no worse than the regular flu and now say our mitigation efforts are doing more harm than good.

The holders of these opinions have been consistently wrong because their opinions are not based on anything more than a “feeling”.

Similarly, no one here has been able to offer anything more than speculation that the effects of a shutdown are going to be worse than the effects of a pandemic let loose with no social distancing.

while all that is reasonable, and I needed to look at my own progression to confirm, I do not agree. again, only because I am in that camp, and what you write is, again while reasonable, and over simplification and a generalization.

I can only state this as I can only speak for myself. I learned from what you wrote, I hope you can see what I write.

first, I never thought it was a hoax. I was probably one of the first people out there preparing. The ladies at my supermarket thought I was nuts. I was alone and the only person buying a full cart of nonperishables. My accountant just called me up and said, well you were right, this was way bigger than we all thought it would be. I have had multiple conversations with people where they reminded me that I told them to get prepared.

I am also still not convinced this is actually worse than a flu (please keep listening). I do agree that this is horrible and it clearly faster than the flu. But it also appears that while the flu is seasonal and apparently continues on forever, this might be something that targets the weak and moves on.

This virus is deadly, to be certain. However, given how incredibly contagious this is, it is reasonable to think it might be deadly to a select few and the masses are mostly safe. I am relatively convinced that I had this. I am pretty convinced that most people I know had this. Given that I am from NJ and the examples of how fast this spreads in a room or on a boat, it is reasonable to assume that just about everyone I know has come in contact with this in someway.

So yes, I agree this is no flu. But the flu is responsible for much sickness and much death. It is different. I am not saying Corona is a bad flu, on that I have learned better. However, while different, I am still not certain this is as bad as they make it out to be.

My biggest concern with how bad this is, is not that people are dying. It is how it is overwhelming the health care system.

I still believe that we did handle this all wrong. I still believe that there is a better way.

Many might not agree with the risks or even the losses that I am willing to take or the viewpoint I have. But I said from the beginning of this thread that Thanos had a point.

We are a plague on this planet. And this might very well be the planet culling the herd. This might very well be Mother Nature protecting herself.

I have also been saying from the beginning that I think we are going about it all wrong.

I am a team player. I will do my part and if this is the path we are taking, then I am most certainly will to everything I can...even if that is sitting at home .

And please don't misunderstand me. I am very afraid of this. I am sad about all the deaths and the sickness. I am terrified of how this will effect the ones I care about.

But life is hard and it is not fair.

so while I very much get what you are saying, and it is reasonable for you to make that connection, I also do not think it is a fair or accurate assessment. Again, only because of my own personal experience. But clearly, I fall into the camp of people you are talking to, so I figured I would respond with my own personal thoughts.

And what Blansky is saying is fair. We learn from people with different viewpoints.

I wish you and all yours safety and health through all of this.

[haven_seeker]

Well, there's bound to be people in all camps and viewpoints, so let me put this out there: While I'm not certain on the threat level of the virus itself, I think the reaction of the public and the world at large has been nothing short of hysterical on every level.

I'm not sure anything in this world is this bad that each nation has reacted to it to the level that they have.

Am I convinced of the conspiracy theory that this was all a hoax, to achieve some unidentified agenda? I'm not there yet, but I'm cynical to a fault on even the best of days, so the theory has been at the very back of my mind since the beginning calmly pawing at my synapses every so often.

I truly believe that what I've seen so far, based on my uneducated opinion and experience, that the reaction and hysteria has been worse than the virus by exponential measure.

Just one man's opinion. Please don't kill me. I wear a quartz watch, remember?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by haven_seeker

Well, there's bound to be people in all camps and viewpoints, so let me put this out there: While I'm not certain on the threat level of the virus itself, I think the reaction of the public and the world at large has been nothing short of hysterical on every level.

I'm not sure anything in this world is this bad that each nation has reacted to it to the level that they have.

Am I convinced of the conspiracy theory that this was all a hoax, to achieve some unidentified agenda? I'm not there yet, but I'm cynical to a fault on even the best of days, so the theory has been at the very back of my mind since the beginning calmly pawing at my synapses every so often.

I truly believe that what I've seen so far, based on my uneducated opinion and experience, that the reaction and hysteria has been worse than the virus by exponential measure.

Just one man's opinion. Please don't kill me. I wear a quartz watch, remember?

All throughout human history the majority choose hysteria over calm. It’s just easier to be hysterical. Human beings are emotional. There’s nothing emotional about calm.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Patton250

All throughout human history the majority choose hysteria over calm. It’s just easier to be hysterical. Human beings are emotional. There’s nothing emotional about calm.

I do not see the current mandated responses as either hysteria or driven by hysteria anymore than our governmental responses to 9/11 or Pearl Harbor were.

Hoarding toilet paper and people demanding that brown skinned people be kicked off planes after 9/11 were hysteria, but that was more at the individual level.

Granted governments have had a long and eloquent history of occasionally over reaching, I am just not sure that this is the case here. yet.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

I do not see the current mandated responses as either hysteria or driven by hysteria anymore than our governmental responses to 9/11 or Pearl Harbor were.

Hoarding toilet paper and people demanding that brown skinned people be kicked off planes after 9/11 were hysteria, but that was more at the individual level.

Granted governments have had a long and eloquent history of occasionally over reaching, I am just not sure that this is the case here. yet.

Fair enough. However I’m mostly referring to the media.

[joeychitwood]

Originally Posted by haven_seeker

I'm not certain on the threat level of the virus itself, I think the reaction of the public and the world at large has been nothing short of hysterical on every level. I'm not sure anything in this world is this bad that each nation has reacted to it to the level that they have.

I think seeing the healthcare systems of entire countries and major cities overwhelmed by death and critical illness has something to do with a feeling in the world that this is bad. Makeshift hospitals set up in arenas and parks. Refrigerated trucks parked next to hospitals for body storage. Funeral directors overwhelmed with the dead. Healthcare workers dying of the disease they fight. As a lifelong healthcare worker, yes, these things have me extremely concerned. Have I seen hysteria? Not yet. But I think we will.

I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?

[cocoabutter]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?

I think the death of a loved one due to Covid will make people sit up and take this seriously. It sucks that it has to happen for people to wake up, but for some people seeing is believing.

Stay safe

[superdog]

Originally Posted by cocoabutter

I think the death of a loved one due to Covid will make people sit up and take this seriously. It sucks that it has to happen for people to wake up, but for some people seeing is believing.

Stay safe

disagree. it would not change my opinion one bit. it would hurt terribly. but it would not change my opinion.

bad is not 5% of our population dying. to a certain degree 5% is likely very good for the world.

bad is 25% of the population dying.

bad is the entire wolds economy coming to a halt causing mass rioting, poverty, hunger and therefore more disease and death.

[Phooi]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

I think seeing the healthcare systems of entire countries and major cities overwhelmed by death and critical illness has something to do with a feeling in the world that this is bad. Makeshift hospitals set up in arenas and parks. Refrigerated trucks parked next to hospitals for body storage. Funeral directors overwhelmed with the dead. Healthcare workers dying of the disease they fight. As a lifelong healthcare worker, yes, these things have me extremely concerned. Have I seen hysteria? Not yet. But I think we will.

I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?

If anything, this pandemic has shown that people are going to believe what they are going to believe regardless of the information available. People will see what you wrote above and say it’s not where I live so why should I change how I live. Or they will find some other information to counter it.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Phooi

If anything, this pandemic has shown that people are going to believe what they are going to believe regardless of the information available. People will see what you wrote above and say it’s not where I live so why should I change how I live. Or they will find some other information to counter it.

What about you?

Will you read with an open mind? Will you look at other perspectives and potentially learn from them? Or at a minimum have some understanding of where they are coming from?

Or will your thought process revolve around what you believe based on your own perspective?

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

I frequently wonder as I navigate this thread, what exactly WOULD qualify as bad to many of the posters here?

I don't think anyone thinks that the deaths and the ones to come are not tragic.

But this is a pandemic and there will be thousands of deaths as a matter of reality. Where the differences of opinion come in is how we manage death vs economic chaos.

And we haven't had that many deaths YET and no real economic chaos YET. But we will.

You are exactly right about leveling the curve as you stated from the beginning, and that is happening to some extent as hospitals and science ramps up the supplies and research.

But the bottom line still is, without a vaccine, WHEN do we open the doors? And how bad will it be.

Everyone wants the same outcome. Wind us back 6 months. But that isn't gonna happen so how do we handle and manage our new reality.

Listening to my wife talk to her corporate peeps and the messaging from corporate, and the general atmosphere makes me think that the public seems to think that when the restrictions get released in the next month or two or three, that then we are back to normal.

It's astounding the denial. When the restrictions are released we are then in the eye of the hurricane. Then IT ALL STARTS for real.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by haven_seeker

I think the reaction of the public and the world at large has been nothing short of hysterical on every level.

I truly believe that what I've seen so far, based on my uneducated opinion and experience, that the reaction and hysteria has been worse than the virus by exponential measure.

Concur

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by superdog

while all that is reasonable, and I needed to look at my own progression to confirm, I do not agree. again, only because I am in that camp, and what you write is, again while reasonable, and over simplification and a generalization.

I can only state this as I can only speak for myself. I learned from what you wrote, I hope you can see what I write.

first, I never thought it was a hoax. I was probably one of the first people out there preparing. The ladies at my supermarket thought I was nuts. I was alone and the only person buying a full cart of nonperishables. My accountant just called me up and said, well you were right, this was way bigger than we all thought it would be. I have had multiple conversations with people where they reminded me that I told them to get prepared.

I am also still not convinced this is actually worse than a flu (please keep listening). I do agree that this is horrible and it clearly faster than the flu. But it also appears that while the flu is seasonal and apparently continues on forever, this might be something that targets the weak and moves on.

This virus is deadly, to be certain. However, given how incredibly contagious this is, it is reasonable to think it might be deadly to a select few and the masses are mostly safe. I am relatively convinced that I had this. I am pretty convinced that most people I know had this. Given that I am from NJ and the examples of how fast this spreads in a room or on a boat, it is reasonable to assume that just about everyone I know has come in contact with this in someway.

So yes, I agree this is no flu. But the flu is responsible for much sickness and much death. It is different. I am not saying Corona is a bad flu, on that I have learned better. However, while different, I am still not certain this is as bad as they make it out to be.

My biggest concern with how bad this is, is not that people are dying. It is how it is overwhelming the health care system.

I still believe that we did handle this all wrong. I still believe that there is a better way.

Many might not agree with the risks or even the losses that I am willing to take or the viewpoint I have. But I said from the beginning of this thread that Thanos had a point.

We are a plague on this planet. And this might very well be the planet culling the herd. This might very well be Mother Nature protecting herself.

I have also been saying from the beginning that I think we are going about it all wrong.

I am a team player. I will do my part and if this is the path we are taking, then I am most certainly will to everything I can...even if that is sitting at home .

And please don't misunderstand me. I am very afraid of this. I am sad about all the deaths and the sickness. I am terrified of how this will effect the ones I care about.

But life is hard and it is not fair.

so while I very much get what you are saying, and it is reasonable for you to make that connection, I also do not think it is a fair or accurate assessment. Again, only because of my own personal experience. But clearly, I fall into the camp of people you are talking to, so I figured I would respond with my own personal thoughts.

And what Blansky is saying is fair. We learn from people with different viewpoints.

I wish you and all yours safety and health through all of this.

Thanks Seth.

I do not want to attack anyone and I have certainly learned from many peoples viewpoint here to the extent that that they have been based on a developing views of the best evidence that we have at the moment.

To the extent that I have offended anyone, please let me apologize.

I feel that most peoples viewpoints here have evolved throughout this, including my own. This is the benefit of this discussion.

Very, very few posters have had radical viewpoints here on this forum. Most on both sides have had very reasoned arguments for their opinions and even evolved with the changing facts. Some have not and that really does frustrate me. I will be respectful, but never shy away from calling out inconsistencies. I welcome all to do the same to me as well so that my opinions can evolve as I am exposed to new facts.

I should note that, outside of this forum, I have listened to friends, neighbors and even family members express some crazy a*# stuff.

My own brother stated that medical professionals are an acceptable casualty in exchange for not shutting down the economy. Even as he realized my wife is one of those dealing with this directly.

I only hope that by me expressing my viewpoint that I can really force people to think about the factual basis for their opinions. Again, to the point that I have offended anyone, please accept my apologies.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

Thanks Seth.

I do not want to attack anyone and I have certainly learned from many peoples viewpoint here to the extent that that they have been based on a developing views of the best evidence that we have at the moment.

To the extent that I have offended anyone, please let me apologize.

I feel that most peoples viewpoints here have evolved throughout this, including my own. This is the benefit of this discussion.

Very, very few posters have had radical viewpoints here on this forum. Most on both sides have had very reasoned arguments for their opinions and even evolved with the changing facts. Some have not and that really does frustrate me. I will be respectful, but never shy away from calling out inconsistencies. I welcome all to do the same to me as well so that my opinions can evolve as I am exposed to new facts.

I should note that, outside of this forum, I have listened to friends, neighbors and even family members express some crazy a*# stuff.

My own brother stated that medical professionals are an acceptable casualty in exchange for not shutting down the economy. Even as he realized my wife is one of those dealing with this directly.

I only hope that by me expressing my viewpoint that I can really force people to think about the factual basis for their opinions. Again, to the point that I have offended anyone, please accept my apologies.

no sir. no apologies needed. none at all!!!

in fact, nothing but respect and appreciation for your posts, most especially this one.



and yeah, I agree there is a lot of crazy out there right now. on so many levels in so many ways. and of course a lot of emotion is tied into all this. every day I am checking in on my family. and everyday, I am checking in on friends that have this. and everyday I have people checking in on me.

its all crazy scary.

personally, this thread has gone sideways a few times. that is completely understandable. thankfully we have all kept it on track and we are still here. and for the most part it truly has been a great learning experience for many of us.

I am grateful to your contributions of that. thank you.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by superdog

while all that is reasonable, and I needed to look at my own progression to confirm, I do not agree. again, only because I am in that camp, and what you write is, again while reasonable, and over simplification and a generalization.

I can only state this as I can only speak for myself. I learned from what you wrote, I hope you can see what I write.

first, I never thought it was a hoax. I was probably one of the first people out there preparing. The ladies at my supermarket thought I was nuts. I was alone and the only person buying a full cart of nonperishables. My accountant just called me up and said, well you were right, this was way bigger than we all thought it would be. I have had multiple conversations with people where they reminded me that I told them to get prepared.

I am also still not convinced this is actually worse than a flu (please keep listening). I do agree that this is horrible and it clearly faster than the flu. But it also appears that while the flu is seasonal and apparently continues on forever, this might be something that targets the weak and moves on.

This virus is deadly, to be certain. However, given how incredibly contagious this is, it is reasonable to think it might be deadly to a select few and the masses are mostly safe. I am relatively convinced that I had this. I am pretty convinced that most people I know had this. Given that I am from NJ and the examples of how fast this spreads in a room or on a boat, it is reasonable to assume that just about everyone I know has come in contact with this in someway.

So yes, I agree this is no flu. But the flu is responsible for much sickness and much death. It is different. I am not saying Corona is a bad flu, on that I have learned better. However, while different, I am still not certain this is as bad as they make it out to be.

My biggest concern with how bad this is, is not that people are dying. It is how it is overwhelming the health care system.

I still believe that we did handle this all wrong. I still believe that there is a better way.

Many might not agree with the risks or even the losses that I am willing to take or the viewpoint I have. But I said from the beginning of this thread that Thanos had a point.

We are a plague on this planet. And this might very well be the planet culling the herd. This might very well be Mother Nature protecting herself.

I have also been saying from the beginning that I think we are going about it all wrong.

I am a team player. I will do my part and if this is the path we are taking, then I am most certainly will to everything I can...even if that is sitting at home .

And please don't misunderstand me. I am very afraid of this. I am sad about all the deaths and the sickness. I am terrified of how this will effect the ones I care about.

But life is hard and it is not fair.

so while I very much get what you are saying, and it is reasonable for you to make that connection, I also do not think it is a fair or accurate assessment. Again, only because of my own personal experience. But clearly, I fall into the camp of people you are talking to, so I figured I would respond with my own personal thoughts.

And what Blansky is saying is fair. We learn from people with different viewpoints.

I wish you and all yours safety and health through all of this.

Well said Seth and I agree!

I would like to say great minds think alike but I don’t qualify.