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Old 9 January 2014, 02:48 AM   #31
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Good post!
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Old 9 January 2014, 04:37 AM   #32
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So maybe best is to enjoy the 400 for a few months or so while saving up and then flip for the 5711. Best of both worlds.
Know what, I got to try both the 400 and the 5711 while picking up my 116505 and I must say I love both but between them the 5711 by far peaked my interest.

To OP, thanks for the wonderfully detailed comparison.
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Old 9 January 2014, 06:02 AM   #33
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Know what, I got to try both the 400 and the 5711 while picking up my 116505 and I must say I love both but between them the 5711 by far peaked my interest.

To OP, thanks for the wonderfully detailed comparison.
Same here, the 5711 wins that battle, but against the 202, like in Gus' pic above, then it becomes a much harder decision... but still Patek for me.
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Old 9 January 2014, 06:53 AM   #34
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Thanks for sharing 2 iconic watches. If price was not a factor, I would take the patek in this case.
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Old 9 January 2014, 07:25 AM   #35
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Great review, however your scoring is a bit off, IMO. The Cal 3120 while highly regarded isn't nearly as accurate as the 324 SC. Perhaps it is because it is a 3Hz movement, but tons of people have had problems with the accuracy of this movement so I would argue that the AP score should go down in this category and the PP should go up. Also, the "value" score is a bit biased, just see the 2nd hand value of the 5711.
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Old 9 January 2014, 08:51 AM   #36
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Fair Scoring?

1) I think my posting reflects what you saying under rate category does it not? What score for rate would you suggest and on what basis?

Rate Results* (10): The AP 3120 is supposed to operate between -3 to +12 seconds/day on the wrist according to AP. It is supposed to have “good” rate results when regulated, however anecdotal owner feedback suggest some need to be regulated post-purchase at APSC. Score = 6

Rate Results* (10): The PP 324 SC is known for its excellent rate results in impendent published testing (Calibre 315 in 2007), anecdotal owner feedback and the stringent published rate requirements of -3, +2 seconds/day of the PP Standard. Score = 10

* Based on company information, published reviews and anecdotal reviews by owners on watch enthusiast forums

2) Yes, the 5711 holds value if you chose to sell it but it costs >$10k more than a 15400. How does one weigh those two aspects under overall value? What would you suggest a "fair" scoring would be?

Overall Value (15): The Royal Oak is an AP (a venerable atelier and one of the “big three”) and the watch that is perennial in its demand among luxury watch enthusiasts. It does not hold its value like a PP on the secondary market. Its retail price and the considerations typically afforded by ADs, prices it at >$10k (USD) below the Nautilus 5711. Score = 13

Overall Value (15): The Nautilus is both a Patek, long considered the premier watch company and a watch that is perennial in its demand among luxury watch enthusiasts. It holds its value excellently on the secondary market. Its retail price along with the minimal price consideration afforded to customers by ADs, prices it at a >$10k (USD) over the AP 15400. Score = 10

Curious to hear...

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Great review, however your scoring is a bit off, IMO. The Cal 3120 while highly regarded isn't nearly as accurate as the 324 SC. Perhaps it is because it is a 3Hz movement, but tons of people have had problems with the accuracy of this movement so I would argue that the AP score should go down in this category and the PP should go up. Also, the "value" score is a bit biased, just see the 2nd hand value of the 5711.
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Old 9 January 2014, 10:12 AM   #37
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If you could somehow retrofit the AP bracelett on the Patek case it would be the perfect watch. I love both of those two componants so much. It would be the dream team.
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Old 9 January 2014, 10:24 AM   #38
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But if the rate results are so poor with the Cal 3120 why do you rate the movement so much higher than the Patek one? Or why is the Patek "only" 15?

A large part of "value" is what something is worth once you have bought it, and in this case PP is the strong winner. You can rather easily get 20-25% discount on various AP models, not so on Pateks. And the 5711 retains it's value much better than a Royal Oak. Value to me has little to do with the initial cost, but how much value is retained.

But don't get me wrong, it is a great comp and you put a lot of effort into it, so big kudos on that. I would rate the watches a bit differently, as well as perhaps compare the 5711 to the 15202 that came out last year.

Cheers,

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Old 9 January 2014, 11:37 AM   #39
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Patrick,

Since rate results on their own was a 10-point category, double counting that in the 20-point movement category seemed like double counting. That is the way Watchtime Magazine does their reviews as well.

In the movement section I dinged the 324 5-points on its lack of hacking seconds, shorter power reserve, thinner plate/bridge construction(use of a balance cock), and a date mechanism that does not change precisely at midnight. These attributes were important to me, but obviously not to others.

The thicker construction with a double screwed balance (like a 3135) hacking seconds, a date mechanism that changes at midnight, bi-directional winding with a longer power reserve as advantages. I dinged the AP 2-points on the fact that it is a relatively young movement still not fully evolved from growing pain continuous improvement.

Lets examine your value proposition...

5711
Street Price from AD: $26,700 (Full MAP)
Used Price: $22,000-$24,000 (80-90% MAP)
Depreciation: $2,700-$4,700

15400
Street Price from AD:about $14,000 (~80% MAP)
Used Price: $8,500 (60% of Street Price)
Depreciation: $6,500

This is your point I suppose. On one you lose only $2,700-$4,700 and on the other $6,500 ( $1,800-$3,800 more).

BUT....you paid $12,700 more for the 5711 than you did for a 15400. Hence, my conclusion was the premium price charged by PP far outweighed the depreciation benefit that it offered from a dollars and cents perspective. Therefore I rated the 5711 with a 10 out of 15 and the 15400 with a 13 out of 15 for the overall value category. As a point of reference, Watchtime rated the 5711 with a 11 out of 15 when they reviewed it in 2007. Your point is true, from a percentage of investment perspective, but not from a monetary perspective in my view. I think that is where we differ.

:-)

Bob



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But if the rate results are so poor with the Cal 3120 why do you rate the movement so much higher than the Patek one? Or why is the Patek "only" 15?

A large part of "value" is what something is worth once you have bought it, and in this case PP is the strong winner. You can rather easily get 20-25% discount on various AP models, not so on Pateks. And the 5711 retains it's value much better than a Royal Oak. Value to me has little to do with the initial cost, but how much value is retained.

But don't get me wrong, it is a great comp and you put a lot of effort into it, so big kudos on that. I would rate the watches a bit differently, as well as perhaps compare the 5711 to the 15202 that came out last year.

Cheers,

Patrick
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Old 9 January 2014, 12:17 PM   #40
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Bob,

just an observation, its clear you have received some pushback on your choices of watches and your ratings…

I just want to say i admire your resolution to own your comparison and this thread, you have done so with great class and have added only worthwhile detail to the thread.

thank you for a great and informative effort!

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Old 9 January 2014, 01:23 PM   #41
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Thanks for your kind words. Sorry that I can't make January 23rd...

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Bob,

just an observation, its clear you have received some pushback on your choices of watches and your ratings…

I just want to say i admire your resolution to own your comparison and this thread, you have done so with great class and have added only worthwhile detail to the thread.

thank you for a great and informative effort!

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Old 9 January 2014, 07:22 PM   #42
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Again great work, Bob. Just a couple more points for the sake of spreading info on this great thread.

The AP 3120 does often have timing issues that have to be included in evaluation, but also must the problems with the PP's date changeover. This is a bigger issue and takes far more time to correct. Therefore as it is a bigger problem but it's occurrence is less common than the AP's issue, I would rate both mvmnt performances as fairly similar in the end, so a point off the PP score as it is already low, maybe too low actually now that I look at it, and one more for the AP as 6 is too low. So 7 for AP and 14 for PP.

Also regards value and depreciation, I think more of a premium ought to be put on the fact that PPs do not depreciate by very much as this is very rare in watchmaking, and gives the owner a higher sense of the watches intrinsic worth and thus a potentially higher emotional feel for the piece. This rare and unique quality which can elevate the owner's personal satisfaction would add a point or two more in this category for me.
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Old 9 January 2014, 07:30 PM   #43
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I can't afford either but enjoy reading this post. Thanks

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Old 9 January 2014, 07:46 PM   #44
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On my final point of value, it might be better to divide this category into Price and Value, ie price paid (probable at ADs) and price sold (probable). The price for a Nautilus is clearly awful and mostly unjustifiable based on what it is and does, but its value retention is excellent, and the RO is the exact opposite, so as these two ideas are so opposite putting them together is rather inelegant and confusing.
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Old 9 January 2014, 07:51 PM   #45
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Thanks for quantifying your assessment regarding inherent value. Watchtime agreed with you and scored it an 11. There is no exact science to this and I suspect, depending on the viewer; it could easily score the other direction as some have commented. I also suspect that you're correct about emotions regarding inherent value elevating some collector's satisfaction. I tried to intentionally not factor emotions into overall value because of its variability among owners.

Regarding the window misalignment issue on the 324 or the hands jumping or regulation issues on the 3120 it was difficult to establish the rate and extent of each. I tried to cover that in the fact the age of the movements and their evolutionary state. The 315 dates back to 1985 (older than the 3135!) and the 3120 to only 2004.

As a frame of reference, Watchtime rated the movement (315 not 324) higher than I at an 18. My assessment assigned value to ruggedness, power reserve, quick date, winding (e.g. modern features)and hence the few point difference between them. For example, some people may not value rugged construction, power reserve, date or winding efficiency at all. They might value slimness overall.

Appreciated.

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Again great work, Bob. Just a couple more points for the sake of spreading info on this great thread.

The AP 3120 does often have timing issues that have to be included in evaluation, but also must the problems with the PP's date changeover. This is a bigger issue and takes far more time to correct. Therefore as it is a bigger problem but it's occurrence is less common than the AP's issue, I would rate both mvmnt performances as fairly similar in the end.

Also regards value and depreciation, I think more of a premium ought to be put on the fact that PPs do not depreciate by much as this is very rare in watchmaking, and gives the owner a higher sense of the watches intrinsic worth and a higher emotional feel for the piece. This rare and unique quality to elevate the owner's personal satisfaction would add a point or two more in this category for me.
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Old 10 January 2014, 01:03 AM   #46
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Thanks for your kind words. Sorry that I can't make January 23rd...
Thank you, catch you next time
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Old 10 January 2014, 01:34 AM   #47
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As I read through your ratings I could immediately recognize the work of someone with an engineeering background, which I verified by reading some of your other posts.

Kudos from another engineer/guitarist/lover of fine watches for a job very well done; it was a very well done, most thorough analysis. Nice axe btw, bet that has tone for days...

Only point on which I would disagree is availability of preowned 15400s at the $8600 price point. I keep an eye on those and haven't seen one close to this point, they are typically priced in the $11-12K range here and in other forums, occasionally down into the mid 10's.
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Old 10 January 2014, 04:58 AM   #48
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I agree that I see most 15400 in the $10-$12k range used. I was being very conservative for illustration purposes. The value numbers turn even further away at this resale price. Thanks again for your kind words. And yes, it does play and sound as good as it looks!

What is clear to me is that on a 2:1 basis most people prefer a 5711 or the 15400 or the 15300 and that I am in the "minority".

The brand equity of PP, its slimness, dial, comfortable fit and resale trump a watch with lesser brand equity, a better bracelet, modern/rugged movement with easier operation and far lower entry cost. It also shows why a 15202 is more closely matched to the attributes that they value in a 5711. The diagram that I produced illustrates these adjacencies. I think there is likely less disagreement between a 5167 vs. 15400 and 5711 vs. 15202 than there is for 15400 vs. 5711. That decision is more influenced by if your leaning more rugged and sporty or slimmer and dressy.



It is about one's priorities in the end. I just wanted to share mine, because no doubt someone will be struggling with this decision again, and again. This will provide them with some food for thought, that's all.

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As I read through your ratings I could immediately recognize the work of someone with an engineeering background, which I verified by reading some of your other posts.

Kudos from another engineer/guitarist/lover of fine watches for a job very well done; it was a very well done, most thorough analysis. Nice axe btw, bet that has tone for days...

Only point on which I would disagree is availability of preowned 15400s at the $8600 price point. I keep an eye on those and haven't seen one close to this point, they are typically priced in the $11-12K range here and in other forums, occasionally down into the mid 10's.
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Old 10 January 2014, 08:04 AM   #49
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Bob, again, don't get me wrong, you put a tremendous amount of work, time and thought into the comp - and I that is highly appreciated and fantastic, but at the end of the day you are trying to apply logic to rationalize a decision that emotional. The heart wants what the heart wants :-)

Even if both AP and PP are the top of the old brands in my book, given their marketing/brand strategy it has become a bit like this.

AP - new money (Hollywood, NBA, hiphop, sportstars etc.) and fashion-forward. And then the true 15202/Genta fans.

PP - old money. Conservative as can be.
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Old 10 January 2014, 08:22 AM   #50
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AP - new money ...

15202...

PP - old money...


I like it

where would the Aquanaut fit?
i don't think the old money nor the new money embrace it, perhaps its just next to the 15202
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Old 10 January 2014, 08:30 AM   #51
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I agree that I see most 15400 in the $10-$12k range used. I was being very conservative for illustration purposes. The value numbers turn even further away at this resale price. Thanks again for your kind words. And yes, it does play and sound as good as it looks!
I'll bet it does! I agree with the value numbers, that's the main reason I pointed the pricing out.

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What is clear to me is that on a 2:1 basis most people prefer a 5711 or the 15400 or the 15300 and that I am in the "minority".
Well, count me amongst your minority: while I can certainly appreciate the Patek quality, heritage, and legend, the fact is that AP is not exactly a shrinking violet in those areas, and for me aesthetics are always the prime factor in a decision of this sort, and my personal belief is that while the PP is a lovely watch and just oozes class and quality, IMO the RO has stood the test of time a bit better, and I just prefer its look--particularly the bracelet, which imo is just unparalleled.

Of course others will disagree, and I'm sure they'll enjoy their 5711s every bit as much as we enjoy our 15400s.

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The brand equity of PP, its slimness, dial, comfortable fit and resale trump a watch with lesser brand equity, a better bracelet, modern/rugged movement with easier operation and far lower entry cost. It also shows why a 15202 is more closely matched to the attributes that they value in a 5711. The diagram that I produced illustrates these adjacencies. I think there is likely less disagreement between a 5167 vs. 15400 and 5711 vs. 15202 than there is for 15400 vs. 5711. That decision is more influenced by if your leaning more rugged and sporty or slimmer and dressy.



It is about one's priorities in the end. I just wanted to share mine, because no doubt someone will be struggling with this decision again, and again. This will provide them with some food for thought, that's all.
Agreed, and again hats off to you for a job extremely well done!
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Old 10 January 2014, 08:13 PM   #52
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Thanks for this comparo !
I have read all comments and your reply's. Very educating. I feel like a connoisseur now

And agree, I too would chose between 15400 and 5711 (41 and 40mm) as opposed to the smaller (39mm) and no seconds hand 15202.

If both watches were made by unknown independent company's I would guess the 5711 would be scoring differently. The name (image and resale value) makes it the top choice imo, like most other Patek's for that matter.
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Old 11 January 2014, 12:18 PM   #53
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enabler

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Great review, thanks for posting it. The PP would be my choice if I could afford it. Since I can't, I went with the 15400

That photo is an enabler!
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Old 12 January 2014, 05:49 AM   #54
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Great post!
I personally prefer the APs design over the 5711 so it's no contest for me. To be honest, I just skimmed the PP info. But great info on the RO!

I think one thing to consider as well is size- for the AP it comes in a variety of sizes- 41mm (15400), 39mm (15202 and a used 15300), and 37mm (15450) so chances are you'll find a RO that will fit you perfectly.

I've got a very small wrist so the 37mm option is a big plus for me!

Does the Nautilus come in different sizes?
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Old 12 January 2014, 07:00 AM   #55
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A Nautilus 5711 comes in a single mens size. It is 43 mm crown axis x 38 mm bracelet axis. There are however, smaller womens versions. The 39 mm 15202 feels closest in size to it. The 41 mm 15400 wears larger. That is partly why many people with smaller sized wrists prefer the 5711.

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Great post!
I personally prefer the APs design over the 5711 so it's no contest for me. To be honest, I just skimmed the PP info. But great info on the RO!

I think one thing to consider as well is size- for the AP it comes in a variety of sizes- 41mm (15400), 39mm (15202 and a used 15300), and 37mm (15450) so chances are you'll find a RO that will fit you perfectly.

I've got a very small wrist so the 37mm option is a big plus for me!

Does the Nautilus come in different sizes?
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Old 18 January 2014, 01:34 PM   #56
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Wow, amazing post and comparison, Bob.
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Old 21 January 2014, 04:46 PM   #57
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Most excellent thread. Thanks OP.

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Old 22 January 2014, 09:08 AM   #58
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Even if both AP and PP are the top of the old brands in my book, given their marketing/brand strategy it has become a bit like this.

AP - new money (Hollywood, NBA, hiphop, sportstars etc.) and fashion-forward. And then the true 15202/Genta fans.

PP - old money. Conservative as can be.
That's actually a really good way of looking at it.

Personally, I could have gotten either, but end of the day loved the AP more. The 5711 to me was overally plain. Something like a 5726 or 5980 makes it a bit more interesting, but then at a very different price as well.
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Old 14 May 2014, 02:39 PM   #59
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As much as I like my 15400, I would own a 5711 if I could afford it.

Have thought many times about flipping my 15400 + SubC + some cash for one... Still do
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Old 14 May 2014, 03:13 PM   #60
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I'm late to the party, but I must say that I'm surprised that the Patek doesn't hack. That is so weird.

Nonetheless, I would pick the Patek, because aesthetically it is the better looking watch, in my judgement, although it is my least favorite Patek.

The AP does nothing for me at all, although I must acknowledge its heritage and horological significance.
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