Rolex Culture Shift.........

[Tools]

I've been into watches for more years than some of you have been around...or so it seems..

What I have noticed the past couple of years is a shift in culture and values of the watch enthusiast.

It's always been a given that some watches have risen to cult status and are highly collectible. There have always been certain references that have been collected as well..Like the Sub and it's variances and the GMT... Daytona, etc.

But the past year or two, it seems that many, many buyers are expecting to buy a "collectible" watch right from their Dealer...

It seems that people are willing to pay for extra stuff with a watch that make no practical sense for a modern, mass produced watch..

Or the idea that they can get a brand new watch, put it in a safe, untouched for a couple of years and make their fortune..

Here's my question.............

If you are going to buy a watch, and want to wear it and be part of the true Rolex wearing culture.........what do you care if it came with stickers on it or not...or that the Dealer took your precious sticker off.........

For that matter.....why is there any perceived "value" on any of the stuff that comes with the modern Rolex....... the stuff is just not rare or in short supply.

Have we become a culture of watch enthusiasts, or of Barbie dolls in the plastic boxes worshipers............???

[wantonebad]

Its a good question Larry, I can only speak for myself of course but when I bought my first Daytona I was shocked to find that the AD had taken off the stickers. I was pissed, because wearing it or not, reselling, especially with that model, was a possibility.

That said the decision to circulate a new watch or not should be up to the owner, no? I mean some people collect for the sake of collecting and may have preservation as their primary goal. Strange as it may seem, lots of collectors do squirrel-away time pieces thinking that particular models may age like fine wine, or even blow up like a Newman Daytona.

I'm ok with people doing what they want with their money but I do agree these time pieces should be used, its what they were built for

[evy411nia]

Very interesting point you raise. There are many things being peddled today where "perceived value" as you phrase it trumps everything else. No Mercedes Benz you can buy today will ever be a Gullwing, even if kept in a plastic bubble for 100 years.

[Moto]

It's funny because I asked my AD to take the stickers off of my watch so I could wear it immediately, and I was a little annoyed later when I realized that some of the little stickers were still on the watch.

I bought my watch to wear, not to flip, and not to sit in a safe. I have never believed in putting plastic covers on a leather couch, it just seems foolish to me. I like to enjoy the nice things I have rather than simply enjoy the fact that I own them.

It's just like Harley Davidsons. Some people buy them to ride every day, some to ride on the weekend, some to ride only on a perfect day, and some just like to polish them in the garage. Some just want something they can show off at a bike show. Nothing wrong with any of it, different strokes...(no pun intended)

[karmatp]

I totally hear what you are trying to say Larry, and I agree. I get frustrated at posts like that when people are wondering what will be worth more in the future, or when people buy a watch just because they feel it will be worth something in the future. Why can't people just buy a watch they like and enjoy it? I read posts where people want the model they have discontinued so it will be worth more, it's completely ridiculous and they make themselves sound so petty............it''s a watch for goodness sake. People freak out over stickers and the little plastic tags, some people even get upset because they lost their $.02 bezel protectors, it's just insane. I don't know what started all the crazyness, but it makes no sense what's so ever. These are all mass produced watches that are everywhere, I have no clue why people think that they will be able to pay off their mortgage in a few years by selling a Rolex. Seriously, the culture has changed, at least around here it seems anyway, I can't tell what posts are real or which ones are a joke half the time, it's still entertaining to say the least though. I wear my watches, and if I scratch or ding them, so be it, at least it's getting worn. Maybe in 40 years my watches will be worth what I paid for them, maybe a little more if I'm lucky, but I could care less if they are worth nothing because they are for my enjoyment, not for a investment.

[Quicksilver]

There is a culture of collecting and storing things in perfect condition. It makes little sense to me. If I was in the market for a used classic watch I would get more pleasure from a watch that has been used, loved and well cared for. That adds to the character of the watch.

I buy my watches to wear and use. I ask the dealer to remove the stickers in the shop. A fine watch is for wearing. Sticking it in a safe and never touching it shows a lack of respect for the watch and the manafacturer.

[mretzloff]

I think the plastics are pretty important because they show that your watch is new. Would you buy a "new" car that already as 1000 miles on it already?

[RossInIllinois]

Originally Posted by Tools

I've been into watches for more years than some of you have been around...or so it seems..

What I have noticed the past couple of years is a shift in culture and values of the watch enthusiast.

It's always been a given that some watches have risen to cult status and are highly collectible. There have always been certain references that have been collected as well..Like the Sub and it's variances and the GMT... Daytona, etc.

But the past year or two, it seems that many, many buyers are expecting to buy a "collectible" watch right from their Dealer...

It seems that people are willing to pay for extra stuff with a watch that make no practical sense for a modern, mass produced watch..

Or the idea that they can get a brand new watch, put it in a safe, untouched for a couple of years and make their fortune..

Here's my question.............

If you are going to buy a watch, and want to wear it and be part of the true Rolex wearing culture.........what do you care if it came with stickers on it or not...or that the Dealer took your precious sticker off.........

For that matter.....why is there any perceived "value" on any of the stuff that comes with the modern Rolex....... the stuff is just not rare or in short supply.

Have we become a culture of watch enthusiasts, or of Barbie dolls in the plastic boxes worshipers............???

Amen...

[RossInIllinois]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

There is a culture of collecting and storing things in perfect condition. It makes little sense to me. If I was in the market for a used classic watch I would get more pleasure from a watch that has been used, loved and well cared for. That adds to the character of the watch.

I buy my watches to wear and use. I ask the dealer to remove the stickers in the shop. A fine watch is for wearing. Sticking it in a safe and never touching it shows a lack of respect for the watch and the manafacturer.

Oh Exactly..

[redshirt1957]

I have a practical and collectors side to me so I do both. I wear my vintages all the time and they have scratches and nicks and such. I also have a SD M series with all the stickers still on and sitting in a safe. Guess I am sort of a BI-WIS.

[mike]

Nice question Larry.

I'll grant some collectors seek out "complete" sets. Such is the nature of passion in the hobby. That many great pieces do not have all the bits is in some measure a window to the thinking of the time. These were watches to be used. Boxes and papers had no real value to many of the original owners of the time.

Who could have seen what was coming and the impact "all the bits" would have on the overall value (though to be perfectly honest, I some times wonder if some don't attempt to "create" markets for this.

Today (and I mean to offend no one), the passion of the collector/speculator is surpassed by the urge to strike it big. Sadly IMHO the real pleasure in owning a piece is lost (or perhaps never found) as the drive to "flip" for a profit prevails.

Has this been a factor on such grail references as the Mil. Sub, COMEX, various of the vintage Daytonas (and pre-Daytonas, original Milgaus, heck even more mundane references as the 1680, 5513, 1655, and on and on.

Perhaps with the state of the world economy, the pullback in pricing on some vintage pieces we will see the collector and his passion and love of the brand emerge as the most important thing in the hobby.

I'm certainly not knocking price as a factor in the hobby, but value is identified and earned over time in most cases.

Just my 2 cents.

[f16570]

The people who genuinely buy their watch to wear gain the most.
Financial gain from any Rolex is going to be more luck than better judgement.
Occasionally we will have the odd "Newman", but they are just that, occasional.
Anyone who believes that buying a watch, that is mass produced and putting it in the safe for the next XX years will return them some exceptional financial gain is deeply mistaken.
Buy em' and wear em'. Who cares what it is worth.

[argee1977]

I did find it weird this year that everyone wanted a sea-dweller as it's being discontinued, it drove the prices up due to demand but in reality it's a watch that has had hundreds of thousands produced over the last few years, it's not rare and it won't be collectable for at least 30 years, even then i doubt it'll be worth much more than others such as the Milgauss GV, Sub LV and so on.

The reason we're seeing this explosion of people buying to invest is down to the rise in prices of old Rolexes, 5513s are double what they used to be 5 years ago, Comex, 5517s, zenith daytonas, etc have all gone through the roof as well, but the reason for this is that these were rare by todays standards, and 20 years ago people didn't really treat their watches the same way as now with the thought about it being an investment, hell most of the comex, military and other non dates were working watches, used and abused so only a few have made it this far in decent condition, the same won't happen in 20 years time for the SD, Subs, etc because so many people have them in safes or collections and almost every Rolex sold nowadays gets a service every 5 years and comes out the other end looking as new.

[SLS]

I would contend that no current production Rolex is collectable or rare, some may be hard to get or command a premium when bought outside of an AD, but by no means rare! To me, a watch starts acquiring the "rare" status when you can't go on to the for sale section of various enthusiast websites and see a half a dozen of the same watch listed for sale! Sadly, the term rare has been watered down to the point that almost every acrylic crystal Rolex sport watch now adorns the title of rare when being listed by the seller! It also disturbing to see sellers creating an artificial market for something that is simply not there just so they charge an uneducated buyer a premium.
~Scott

[timetravel125]

IMHO, the internet has caused the Rolex culture shift-- as TV greatly influences the culture of the young generation.


When watch enthusiasts read about the "Rolex-mystique" and are intriqued by it--the desire of owning one and eventually making a buck, by flipping it, has certainly become the norm.

I also frequent other watch fora, and I have noticed that Rolex owners are more territorial and tend to be flambuoyant--and, I don't mean it in a negative way. It's human nature, I believe, when one owns one of the most popular brands in the world.

In this day and age, making a buck, has become so prevalent. It is no surprise that one thinks of making a buck, whenever possible, and Rolex has become an accepted currency, if you will.

The idea of making some profit with Rolex watches has eclipsed the aesthetics, history and the pride of ownership of this great horological wonders! Sad, but true.

My dos centavos.

[jdc]

I buy my watches to wear and because I like them and not as an investment. Price to me is important if I could get them cheaper because they did not have all the bits and pieces so much the better. My secondhand GMT came with the box but not the correct one for the watch so I managed to get a £100 off the price. I have all the other bits with the watch but never look at them.
I do not intend to be a collector of Rolex so to me it is a complete non issue.

[Lol-x]

If I buy a new watch from an AD, I want it exactly as it came out of the Rolex factory.
I don't want some AD removing the stickers etc. etc. I want the watch to do as I please.
You get some AD's who remove the stickers. Then they see some sticky stuff and so then they roughly polish the watch to remove the sticky residue, and it comes to you with micro scratches
No way forget it. I'll remove the plastic if and when, in my own sweet time, I paid for that right!

[stevemulholland3]

I feel like people should do what makes them happy,I have a few friends who are so anal about their watches that it seems like they are having no enjoyment in owning them because they are consumed with trying to keep them in superfluous condition.but in reality that is what makes them happy,so all the power to them...

[evy411nia]

Originally Posted by mike

Nice question Larry.

I'll grant some collectors seek out "complete" sets. Such is the nature of passion in the hobby. That many great pieces do not have all the bits is in some measure a window to the thinking of the time. These were watches to be used. Boxes and papers had no real value to many of the original owners of the time.

Who could have seen what was coming and the impact "all the bits" would have on the overall value (though to be perfectly honest, I some times wonder if some don't attempt to "create" markets for this.

Today (and I mean to offend no one), the passion of the collector/speculator is surpassed by the urge to strike it big. Sadly IMHO the real pleasure in owning a piece is lost (or perhaps never found) as the drive to "flip" for a profit prevails.

Has this been a factor on such grail references as the Mil. Sub, COMEX, various of the vintage Daytonas (and pre-Daytonas, original Milgaus, heck even more mundane references as the 1680, 5513, 1655, and on and on.

Perhaps with the state of the world economy, the pullback in pricing on some vintage pieces we will see the collector and his passion and love of the brand emerge as the most important thing in the hobby.

I'm certainly not knocking price as a factor in the hobby, but value is identified and earned over time in most cases.

Just my 2 cents.

That's it...this fantasy of "striking it big". Well said.

[Incurable]

I don't know how you balance the two... As soon as you own more than one Rolex, one or more of them become less than the faithful, daily wear friend a Rolex should be. Considering how many members here own multiples, I'd say something doesn't quite add up...

[toph]

I buy many watches and wear and enjoy them all- end of story

[Perpetuator]

The collectable value of anything lies in the fact that at one point in time it wasn't valued very much at all. Because of this, people didn't take as much care to keep said items in good condition and/or lost or got rid of the item along the way for whatever reason. All of this further translates into rarity, which of course increases the value. Couple this with a practically unforeseen demand/desirability at some point in the future, and there you have a "collectible." Anything today that is marketed as a "future collectible" is not likely ever going to see a high demand, essentially because too many people are already in on it.

My friend's uncle used to tell us about how he used to put Mickey Mantle baseball cards in the spokes of his bicycle wheels when he was a boy, or just threw the cards out altogether if he had more than one of any particular card. Honus Wagner's baseball card sold at auction for over a million dollars. Do you think anyone back in the day thought some little piece of cardboard in their cigar box with a picture of a baseball player was ever going to be so valuable? Men probably used those to light their cigars!

So even though I am also guilty of babying my watches, I have to agree - buy them to wear, enjoy, and maybe even pass down to future generations. Sentimental value will trump all else.

[rolex5]

Very good question.

The fact of life: If there is positive, then there's also negative or vice versa.

Some people buy a Rolex, wear it, love it, enjoy it, treasure it & TREAT it as a watch.

Also some people buy a Rolex, love it, treasure it & PUT it on an altar.

Both cases are normal & understandable because they are the facts of life. However the abnormality is that SOME put their Rolexes on their altars while locking their parents, spouses, children etc... down at their basements.

In my opinion, that's the abnormality in life. Also because of that, there is a word so called ENLIGHTENMENT.

[cameron]

I think that there is a definate change in the watch culture but also in many other fields.
A watch is primarily to tell us the time, but if it looks good and has other perceived attributes then so much the better.
Many everyday items have increased in value : stamps, coins, wine collections, cigar collections, and various memorabilia. While people will collect these items from a personal interest point of view and the pleasure of owning something, many will do so with financial gain being a primary motive in the purchase. Recent changes in the rules governing what can be included in pension funds in the UK have had an impact on the value and number or buyers of stamps so there could also be a similar impact on the watch market. I wonder if the storyline on Only fools and horses (UK tv programme) where a fortune was made on the finding of a rare watch has also had an impact ? Many everyday items will increase in value as the numbers decline due to use.
The technological improvement in communications (such as this forum) means that markets are easily created on a worldwide basis for many items.
I, like so many others here, enjoy wearing my watches and they may be worth more than I paid, but also fashions do change and in the future my watches could be locked away by future generations beside pocket watches which were cherished by parents and grandparents alike.
Many of us enjoy learning about watches and viewing others collections but there are certainly many people out there who will buy only as part of their overall financial planning

[mojo]

I think Larry may have started this thread because of my previous thread where I asked about how much a s/s daytona would decline in value with the plastic removed. Let me first say that I have never flipped a watch and only would consider it if I just never WEAR it. I buy my watches because I love to wear watches (by the way all of my dive watches have actually been diving!) and I don't really care what the value goes to except to make sure they are insured for proper replacement value, not for investment. Recently I got the daytona call from a dealer that I put my name on the list with thinking I would never hear from them as I have never done business with them. Of course I had to buy the watch, a black dial M with the old clasp. Now here's the deal. My dream watch that I never thought I would get is the white dial daytona. Now the problem...The a/d that I have bought several watches from gave me the call with a white face M with the new clasp, so again of course I ran right over to pick it up. I always thought I liked the whit face better, but have only seen pictures of them together. Live I'm not so sure, they're both gorgeous and now I can't decide and am having a hard time justifying keeping both. I'm not necessarily going to sell either one immediately and certainly didn't buy them with the intention of making $ off them. The feedback that I got is that taking the plastic off makes it worth less or at least harder to sell. So I just continue to wear mostly my sea dweller that takes a lickin' & keeps on ticken' while I try to make my daytona decision.

[karmatp]

Originally Posted by mojo

I think Larry may have started this thread because of my previous thread where I asked about how much a s/s daytona would decline in value with the plastic removed. Let me first say that I have never flipped a watch and only would consider it if I just never WEAR it. I buy my watches because I love to wear watches (by the way all of my dive watches have actually been diving!) and I don't really care what the value goes to except to make sure they are insured for proper replacement value, not for investment. Recently I got the daytona call from a dealer that I put my name on the list with thinking I would never hear from them as I have never done business with them. Of course I had to buy the watch, a black dial M with the old clasp. Now here's the deal. My dream watch that I never thought I would get is the white dial daytona. Now the problem...The a/d that I have bought several watches from gave me the call with a white face M with the new clasp, so again of course I ran right over to pick it up. I always thought I liked the whit face better, but have only seen pictures of them together. Live I'm not so sure, they're both gorgeous and now I can't decide and am having a hard time justifying keeping both. I'm not necessarily going to sell either one immediately and certainly didn't buy them with the intention of making $ off them. The feedback that I got is that taking the plastic off makes it worth less or at least harder to sell. So I just continue to wear mostly my sea dweller that takes a lickin' & keeps on ticken' while I try to make my daytona decision.

Your a diver Alan, why are you spending that much money on a watch and not buying the Blancpain FF, it's the ultimate diver. Wear it on the strap when on a dive, get out and easily change over to the bracelet, it maintains the lug holes like a true diver should. Sell one of those daytona's and grab a Blancpain, you'll be my idol.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by karmatp

Your a diver Alan, why are you spending that much money on a watch and not buying the Blancpain FF, it's the ultimate diver. Wear it on the strap when on a dive, get out and easily change over to the bracelet, it maintains the lug holes like a true diver should. Sell one of those daytona's and grab a Blancpain, you'll be my idol.

I've been thinking about that but 45mm seems way too big. Maybe not over a wet suit

[TempoKing]

It all depends if it is new or used.
If new...I want everything there for me to tinker with.
If Used..just make sure that all works correctly.

All in all Blame the different levels of collectionism I guess.

[Letsgodiving]

Many on here are a rare breed and I personally enjoy seeing the extents that people go to with their watches. It may not work for me but somewhere in the recesses there is a part of me that can relate. I take another view with my watches but I can see why some people are so enamored with them and I say as others have said to each their own.

[Singslinger]

To each his own. When I buy a new Rolex and the AD fits it to my wrist, it doesn't bother me at all that he removes the stickers and sets the correct time while doing the fitting. I've even removed the green hologram sticker (when it was still provided) right from the start. My watches are meant to be worn and I don't care about keeping the plastic on to provide the illusion of newness. Nor do I care about collectable value - if it looks good on my wrist and I have the money, I'll buy it and use it as much as possible.

However, I have friends who are the complete opposite. One, aged 55, bought the Sub LV and the GMT2c purely because they were new at the times they were issued, and he paid large premiums for the privilege of being among the first in Singapore to have them. Trouble is, he hardly uses them because they're too large for his slim wrist but insists that he won't sell because they are "collectible''. Although I wouldn't follow his example and have advised him to wear them more often, it's his money at the end of the day and who am I to advise a 55-year old on how to spend it?