Jaeger Le-Coultre is severely under rated?

[Viper0419]

Anyone can shed light on why JLC watches are so undervalued?

Based on my reading, they produce movements for many high value brands so it means that quality is not an issue.

Is it all just branding and marketing that they are not doing well in?

Eg. A Grand Complication watch cost just $12k used. How is that possible?

[calatravato]

My feeling is that it’s owned by a public company, Richemont. Hence, they are pressured to produce to the point where marginal revenue = marginal cost. This achieves a fair market clearing price. Private companies like Patek, Rolex, and AP don’t really care about maximizing profits, so they underproduce and underprice their product. This leads to the hype you’re seeing today and a thriving “grey market” which charges the market clearing price. It’s great for the brand, though.

Similarly, 1/3 of the trinity, Vacheron Constantin does not receive the hype that Rolex, AP, and PP get, although you could argue that they deserve it.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Viper0419

Anyone can shed light on why JLC watches are so undervalued?



Based on my reading, they produce movements for many high value brands so it means that quality is not an issue.



Is it all just branding and marketing that they are not doing well in?



Eg. A Grand Complication watch cost just $12k used. How is that possible?

Great question. I’ve wondered the same. By all Accts it’s a great value.


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[scarlet knight]

Love my JLC Reverso Duo. Don’t complain. JLCs are obtainable.

[DoraTheExplorerII]

They do have some marketing like putting their watches in Marvel movies, have a great name reputation with long history and they are an internet forum darling especially for new and young collectors. More importantly though, their output is huge and the demand will never come close to reaching supply. They are not an artisanal brand with any exclusivity, they sell through volume at a lower price point for a conglomerate.

They are only really known for their dress watches, which have never done well in the used market. The demand now is only really for sports watches, some companies doing much better than others. Personally there are so many brands that I'd take over a JLC for a sports watch its not even funny.

[Jp28]

Dress watches + in my experience bad customer service + ‘so so’ quality means I will not go near them again.

[jeorge]

Their reputation for being not being durable poor QC and servicing I read stinks. For the money. Resale a real tank.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by calatravato

My feeling is that it’s owned by a public company, Richemont. Hence, they are pressured to produce to the point where marginal revenue = marginal cost. This achieves a fair market clearing price. Private companies like Patek, Rolex, and AP don’t really care about maximizing profits, so they underproduce and underprice their product. This leads to the hype you’re seeing today and a thriving “grey market” which charges the market clearing price. It’s great for the brand, though.

Similarly, 1/3 of the trinity, Vacheron Constantin does not receive the hype that Rolex, AP, and PP get, although you could argue that they deserve it.

Great explanation and great post. JLC should probably be in there with the trinity but many of the reason you stated they don’t.

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

Love my JLC Reverso Duo. Don’t complain. JLCs are obtainable.

Reverso is most definitely a classic. A must have for a WIS

Originally Posted by Jp28

so so’ quality means I will not go near them again.

It’s probably best if we keep that you’re a little secret.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by jeorge

Their reputation for being not being durable poor QC and servicing I read stinks. For the money. Resale a real tank.

These are all handmade watches just like Patek, AP, Breguet and ALS. You’re not gonna play golf with them.

[glamorama]

I was going to buy a JLC but when looking closer it was not reseting the hands properly (chronograph). Bought another JLC Chrono that worked fine except it stopped the whole watch randomly and only started again if running the chrono. Those were my only two experiences with JLC but it has destroyed their confidence for me, probably not fair but nevertheless. Their 8yr warranty on new watches should relieve some of that anxiety with JLC purchase though. I feel that since they discontinued the Master Compressor series they have given up on interesting sports models.

[Yaz]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

Love my JLC Reverso Duo. Don’t complain. JLCs are obtainable.

Exactly !

[nda]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

They are only really known for their dress watches, which have never done well in the used market. .

Really?

I thought they were known for the Reverso which was designed for playing polo - reversing the watch face so that the glass was protected during the sport.

Amongst collectors, JLC are not underrated at all - beautifully made watches from a company that's around 200 years old. But, like nearly all watch brands (except some Rolexes and Pateks) they lose value if selling soon after buying.

They make some of the world's most beautiful time pieces, such as the Grand tradition tourbillion quantieme perpetual as well as more sporting watches such as some Reverso models and the Polaris.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by nda

Really?

I thought they were known for the Reverso which was designed for playing polo - reversing the watch face so that the glass was protected during the sport.

Amongst collectors, JLC are not underrated at all - beautifully made watches from a company that's around 200 years old. But, like nearly all watch brands (except some Rolexes and Pateks) they lose value if selling soon after buying.

They make some of the world's most beautiful time pieces, such as the Grand tradition tourbillion quantieme perpetual as well as more sporting watches such as some Reverso models and the Polaris.

Thank you. Well put.

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by calatravato

My feeling is that it’s owned by a public company, Richemont. Hence, they are pressured to produce to the point where marginal revenue = marginal cost.

That’s a good point and to me the single most critical aspect ie ownership by a large corporate house that is public and answerable first and foremost to shareholder. But not from a revenue or margins perspective.... but from “Loss of Culture” perspective.

Originally Posted by calatravato

Private companies like Patek, Rolex, and AP don’t really care about maximizing profits, so they underproduce and underprice their product.

Well... Unless the heads of these companies come out and say as much, you have to assume that they work for maximum profits = maximum assets = maximum long term security.

Most importantly, these independent houses are able to maintain their culture and unique identity. They have control of their brand and invest in ensuring their brand and the brand values will sustain over generations. Their brand relationship with a buyer today or a decade down will be consistent. That’s not impossible for corporate controlled, but often difficult in the face of short term imperatives that the independents like Rolex, PP and AP are immune to.

What does JLC stand for today? What does the brand convey to you? IMO... the brand manager may struggle to answer that with conviction.

My 2c contribution...

Cheers


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[benlee]

Originally Posted by Viper0419

Anyone can shed light on why JLC watches are so undervalued?

Based on my reading, they produce movements for many high value brands so it means that quality is not an issue.

Is it all just branding and marketing that they are not doing well in?

Eg. A Grand Complication watch cost just $12k used. How is that possible?

Because their marketing sucks. They do make very nice watches.

[Exiztence]

Originally Posted by jeorge

Their reputation for being not being durable poor QC and servicing I read stinks. For the money. Resale a real tank.

I feel like this is best kept secret of watch industry everyone parrots that JLC is watchmakers watch but in reality their QC is horrible and reliability even worse. My 2 hand Reverso Tribute had hands mounted wrong, my collegues Sector Dial chrono stopped resetting before he got home from store and has been returned for warranty work 3 times since, another colleague bought new Polaris and it leaked in pool, another friends Reverso fogged up when he took it horse riding and it rained and had to get serviced. SA at local AD mentioned that when they received gyrotourbillon and it went back many times since it just was not capable of running remotely acceptably. Max Busser mentioned that when working for JLC that perpetual calendars just do not work and are incredibly fragile. If you look at their current selection, the movements are rather underwhelming, in age where most new calibers have a base PR of 60h JLC is actually downgrading, MUT Moon used to have 45PR but if you check JLC website now it is only 38h which seems very pathetic.

[Yaz]

Originally Posted by nda

Really?

I thought they were known for the Reverso which was designed for playing polo - reversing the watch face so that the glass was protected during the sport.

Amongst collectors, JLC are not underrated at all - beautifully made watches from a company that's around 200 years old. But, like nearly all watch brands (except some Rolexes and Pateks) they lose value if selling soon after buying.

They make some of the world's most beautiful time pieces, such as the Grand tradition tourbillion quantieme perpetual as well as more sporting watches such as some Reverso models and the Polaris.

Totally agree !

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by calatravato

My feeling is that it’s owned by a public company, Richemont. Hence, they are pressured to produce to the point where marginal revenue = marginal cost. This achieves a fair market clearing price. Private companies like Patek, Rolex, and AP don’t really care about maximizing profits, so they underproduce and underprice their product. This leads to the hype you’re seeing today and a thriving “grey market” which charges the market clearing price. It’s great for the brand, though.

Similarly, 1/3 of the trinity, Vacheron Constantin does not receive the hype that Rolex, AP, and PP get, although you could argue that they deserve it.

I agree with this. Just think if JLC was entirely independent, what would the values look like? Look at some of their higher complications, truly spectacular.

[DoraTheExplorerII]

I guess you either love this brand or you hate it because their QC blows.

Originally Posted by nda

Really?

I thought they were known for the Reverso which was designed for playing polo - reversing the watch face so that the glass was protected during the sport.

What? Then I guess the Cartier Santos is still a pilot's watch. The Reverso in its current form will never be considered a sports watch.

[nda]

I guess the Reverso Grand Sport is not for you then.

I've had several JLC's over the years - nothing wrong with their quality at all, just the opposite in fact. Quite beautiful. I wore my Reverso 24/7 for quite a few years -skiing, swimming, golfing, the office... never missed a beat.

[Vetracer]

Originally Posted by nda

I guess the Reverso Grand Sport is not for you then.

I've had several JLC's over the years - nothing wrong with their quality at all, just the opposite in fact. Quite beautiful. I wore my Reverso 24/7 for quite a few years -skiing, swimming, golfing, the office... never missed a beat.

Only a brave man would take an expensive watch with 3atm or 30 metres water resistance rating in a swimming pool. Please tell me it wasn’t on a leather strap!

[trfChris]

Originally Posted by Viper0419

Eg. A Grand Complication watch cost just $12k used. How is that possible?

Do you have a link to this JLC Grand Complication for $12k? Normally Grand Comp is something like a Minute repeater + Chrono + perpetual calendar. I’d be very surprised if you can find something like that from JLC for $12k.

[ajw45]

I think generally JLC watches are excellent but JLC as a brand is fubar at the moment. They've been leaderless for a while, the new CEO hasn't really made her mark yet, and their direction is super haute horology when the market is laser focused on technical sports watches. The watchmaker's watchmaker was a cool tagline for the WIS but with all the brands going in house and the average social media consumer not able to contemplate what that even means vs a rapper repeating Patek over and over again they really have a lot of work to do to make the brand relevant today. I believe that more than anything is what's killing values. Supply is certainly a problem but not the main one, they could cut supply by 90% but if the brand isn't strong it won't really matter all that much if the demand still isn't there. I miss the Jerome Lambert days of JLC.

That said, the brand has perhaps the widest range of watches by price and style from from steel quartz Reversos to sports watches in the Omega/Rolex price point to million dollar minute repeater perpetual gyrotourbillon matching and maybe exceeding the best of any of the independents from an innovation and finishing perspective. That makes talking about quality challenging because the quality and service you get for that quartz reverso is not going to be the same as that gyrotourbillon that gets delivered to you in an armored truck. Compare that to a Rolex where other than the upcharge for PM, the watches are all relatively similar in cost and frankly similar in quality.

I'm a fanboi and I think the represent some great authenticity and value in horology. I have an Extreme Lab 2 and a Duometre Chronographe. Both compare very favorably to similar types watches from other brands at multiples over JLC msrp. If there is a lack of quality I've seen its with the Richemont service center in Dallas. I might have to fly to Switzerland myself to get my watches serviced if the JLC boutique tries to send them to Dallas again.....

[Viper0419]

Originally Posted by trfChris

Do you have a link to this JLC Grand Complication for $12k? Normally Grand Comp is something like a Minute repeater + Chrono + perpetual calendar. I’d be very surprised if you can find something like that from JLC for $12k.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...e+grand+reveil

If you search chrono24, the price is around there as well.

This watch has perpetual calendar + alarm so it qualify as a Grand Complication right?

[trfChris]

Originally Posted by Viper0419

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...e+grand+reveil

If you search chrono24, the price is around there as well.

This watch has perpetual calendar + alarm so it qualify as a Grand Complication right?

Cool, thanks for the link! Traditionally Grand Complication means specifically Minute Repeater + Split second chrono + perpetual calendar, so those will always be bonkers watches in the several hundred thousand dollar range. I believe AP still uses that terminology.

Patek has made things a bit confusing with their line of watches called “grand complications”, which includes plain perpetual calendars and perpetual calendar chronographs.

So I guess at this point the terminology “grand complication” is not really that well defined so I would guess a perpetual calendar alarm watch could certainly fall under that category

[Peterandwatches]

Def good value. The Master Calendar, Thin Moon, and Dr. Stange watches punch well above their price points.

[Fleetlord]

They make too many of the wrong watches, at the wrong prices and promote the brand ineffectively.

Other than some reversos, there isn’t a reference anyone really talks about and they absolutely have no beach to board room references to play ball with the complete domination of Rolex Sports.

It’s bad. Bad enough they might be in real trouble.

[Vetracer]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

They make too many of the wrong watches, at the wrong prices and promote the brand ineffectively.

Other than some reversos, there isn’t a reference anyone really talks about and they absolutely have no beach to board room references to play ball with the complete domination of Rolex Sports.

It’s bad. Bad enough they might be in real trouble.

I don't think JLC need to be everyone's favourite. That's the beauty of the hobby, we all have differing tastes.

I really enjoy my first generation Master Control Hometime. The case proportions are perfect for my wrist, it's a solidly constructed watch with a superb movement visible from the case back.

The Reverso grande date is one of my favourite dress watches. I love the Art Deco looks.

[nda]

Originally Posted by Vetracer

Only a brave man would take an expensive watch with 3atm or 30 metres water resistance rating in a swimming pool. Please tell me it wasn’t on a leather strap!

My Reverso is 5atm, so quite safe swimming.

I don't wear leather straps anymore - since noticing when playing golf, that, at the top of my golf swing, my Breguet was no longer on my wrist. A $20,000 vacancy.

My 3 golfing buddies and I scoured the golf course in southern Spain and, despite me having tacked the golf course, we eventually found it in the rough.

In the heat of Spain, the glue had softened on the leather strap around a small area holding the clasp on... it fell off.

I lost the same watch, permanently, a few years later in a boating accident - it's now at the bottom of the sea.

I am not Mr Bean. Honestly!

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

They make too many of the wrong watches, at the wrong prices and promote the brand ineffectively.

Other than some reversos, there isn’t a reference anyone really talks about and they absolutely have no beach to board room references to play ball with the complete domination of Rolex Sports.

It’s bad. Bad enough they might be in real trouble.

Well said. Agree as well.




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