Als

[nickorette]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

ALS makes great watches, and their movements - all can and do agree - are exquisite. In addition, the Lange 1 is a great introduction to the brand, capturing Lange aesthetics and also being a seminal reference in the rebirth of ALS. Final point on the Lange 1: what a cool concept using geometry and the golden mean for the dial layout.

That said, speaking personally, after doing a deep dive on ALS, I recommitted to Patek. For me, it came and comes down to case and lug design. Once I saw that every ALS has the same case/lug design, that aesthetic reality turned me off. I appreciate that Patek decided to invest heavily in their case designs (a topic covered in a recent issue of the Patek magazine). For instance, look at the case design and scalloped lugs of your 5905P and then look at the case design of any ALS. For me, that’s a differentiator - and the single biggest reason why I am in the Patek ecosystem and not that of ALS. If I had your current collection, I would look to add a 5227 or a 5172 next.

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Totally agree with this. A point that is often mindbogglingly overlooked by many. People focus on Lange finishing but forget that literally EVERY LANGE has the same case...a circular case with 4 lugs attached by a screw from the inside. Patek basically has a case design for each of their references which is much more interesting and most importantly time consuming, expensive and for me, more attractive.

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I agree with the comments on Lange cases. They're all the same shape and design language. Imagine Lange releasing their manual chrono in a CDV or 5172 case.

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree. A watch is obviously more than the sum of its parts. What makes a great watch, at least to me, you need to take into consideration everything. The case is a MASSIVE part of the entire watch and also contributes to the total cost of the watch and how much value we associate with it.

Lange, because its not a vertically aligned manufacture uses 3 different case manufacturers, one of which is the same as the one SINN uses, SUG. Their case construction is basically a round case with 4 lugs screwed in from the inside of the case. It has its advantages but this is a much cheaper way to make cases than say a Patek 5811 which uses a forged case with a hinged design or other Patek cases with elaborate finishing on the case.

Ofcourse Lange makes up for this with superior finishing (on the entry level vs Patek) where one can argue you get more value as Patek varies their finishing depending on the price level whereas most lange is finished at the same level.

Regardless of whether you have 1 or 3 Langes, I think case design/construction is an important aspect imo

Rolex uses all the same cases too, yet no complaints about Rolex case design being all the same?

My gripe with Patek is they use the same three base movements in everything, you're just basically buying different cases.

The only right answer between ALS vs Patek is both

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by nickorette

Rolex uses all the same cases too, yet no complaints about Rolex case design being all the same?

My gripe with Patek is they use the same three base movements in everything, you're just basically buying different cases.

The only right answer between ALS vs Patek is both

Yes rolex uses a similar case but you cannot use them as an example when many of their watches are $10-15K...At that price which is 25-30% of a Lange, one can accept compromises as well.

[CFR]

To clarify Lange's case presentation for those who are unfamiliar with the brand: The lugs are soldered to the middle case. The lugs will not just fall off if the interior reinforcing screw is removed. So if you buy a used Lange with overpolished lugs, the only way to get back to factory-fresh lugs is to replace the entire middle case.

And they did make some cases that aren't round.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by CFR

To clarify Lange's case presentation for those who are unfamiliar with the brand: The lugs are soldered to the middle case. The lugs will not just fall off if the interior reinforcing screw is removed. So if you buy a used Lange with overpolished lugs, the only way to get back to factory-fresh lugs is to replace the entire middle case.

And they did make some cases that aren't round.

Not sure if you are referring to your watch model specifically but I was told at the Lange manufacture tour, that the lugs CAN be individually replaced due to the construction. They hailed that as the major advantage of their case construction.

[Gebbeth]

According to this site, Lange case lugs are soldered on.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2021/09/lan...in-review.html

Also, the image on this doesn't show screws on the inner case.

I think the misconception is that the case is monobloc and thus the lugs are actually a part of the case. That is not what ALS nor many very high-end watches do.

The lugs are separate and are soldered onto the case. The mark of fine case manufacturer is hiding the solder and, in fact, being able to mirror polish the line where lug meets the case (in most cases, forming an interior angle).

Also, Patek manufactures approximately 60,000 watches per year. They can afford to have more variety in their lineup given that they can manufacture each case in sufficient volume to make financial sense.

ALS makes 5000 per year, max? Multiple case shapes don't make as much sense with that kind of volume.

It's also a matter of company decisions. There is a unifying aesthetic to ALS that shows across the line. As many people would hate ALS doing something radically different vs sticking within the design ethos. It's one of the reasons why Omega refuses to get rid of their helium escape valve, or Rolex refuses to remove the Cyclops...in fact adding them to the SD43. Not sure ALS will win either way.

The Cabaret, by the way, is very underrated. The fact they made a whole new movement for that watch is also impressive. Too bad it wasn't a great seller....probably for the reasons I stated above. You are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[NYG1121]

Hot take: comparing ALS to patek is unfair to patek. ALS is at a higher level and far more exclusive with next level of quality/finishing.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

According to this site, Lange case lugs are soldered on.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2021/09/lan...in-review.html

Also, the image on this doesn't show screws on the inner case.

I think the misconception is that the case is monobloc and thus the lugs are actually a part of the case. That is not what ALS nor many very high-end watches do.

The lugs are separate and are soldered onto the case. The mark of fine case manufacturer is hiding the solder and, in fact, being able to mirror polish the line where lug meets the case (in most cases, forming an interior angle).

Also, Patek manufactures approximately 60,000 watches per year. They can afford to have more variety in their lineup given that they can manufacture each case in sufficient volume to make financial sense.

ALS makes 5000 per year, max? Multiple case shapes don't make as much sense with that kind of volume.

It's also a matter of company decisions. There is a unifying aesthetic to ALS that shows across the line. As many people would hate ALS doing something radically different vs sticking within the design ethos. It's one of the reasons why Omega refuses to get rid of their helium escape valve, or Rolex refuses to remove the Cyclops...in fact adding them to the SD43. Not sure ALS will win either way.

The Cabaret, by the way, is very underrated. The fact they made a whole new movement for that watch is also impressive. Too bad it wasn't a great seller....probably for the reasons I stated above. You are damned if you do, damned if you don't.

yep exactly. The company decision regarding the aeshtetic is because the design is based on a pocket watch. And according to the head of the manufacture, they wanted to maintain that look and to do that was to basically add lugs to a pocket watch! So that made sense. And obviously much easier to perform repairs if you can replace individual lugs.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Not sure if you are referring to your watch model specifically but I was told at the Lange manufacture tour, that the lugs CAN be individually replaced due to the construction. They hailed that as the major advantage of their case construction.

That's interesting. Here's my experience with this issue:

This question about removing lugs came up for me a few years ago, when I got a preowned Lange (typical round case) with overpolished lug chamfers that I wanted Lange to restore to crisp, unpolished (or close to it) condition. Apparently Lange can't do a good job restoring the lug chamfers with the lugs attached to the watch. Since I knew this wasn't a monobloc case and that the lugs were soldered on, I figured Lange could just remove the 4 lugs, recut/repolish them, and then reinstall/resolder them.

But Lange said no, they'd need to replace the entire middle case. I was curious about this, and the clarification that I got was that removing and reinstalling lugs is not trivial. I recall being told something like, "If a lug (or two??) gets bent/damaged, then Lange can remove it and reinstall/resolder it." That might explain what you were told on the factory tour. But apparently at some point, removing and reinstalling lugs isn't cost-effective or practical vs. just replacing the whole middle case. I'm not sure where Lange draw the line (or if there is a clear line). But in any case, the reason that lug removal/reinstallation is nontrivial is because the lugs are soldered and not just screwed in.

Also, I understand that it would be impossible (or impractical?) for Lange to use a monobloc case and still achieve the present effect of a brushed middle case surface (brushed in between the lugs) immediately adjacent to the highly polished, angled vertical lug chamfers.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by CFR

Also, I understand that it would be impossible (or impractical?) for Lange to use a monobloc case and still achieve the present effect of a brushed middle case surface (brushed in between the lugs) immediately adjacent to the highly polished, angled vertical lug chamfers.

If that's true, how can they effectively refinish the brushed portion of the case during service? Presumably they don't remove the lugs to refinish the brushed surface. So at service, the watch is equivalent to a monoblock from a refinishing perspective.

So if that's one reason Lange gave, it seems questionable...

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by CFR

That's interesting. Here's my experience with this issue:

This question about removing lugs came up for me a few years ago, when I got a preowned Lange (typical round case) with overpolished lug chamfers that I wanted Lange to restore to crisp, unpolished (or close to it) condition. Apparently Lange can't do a good job restoring the lug chamfers with the lugs attached to the watch. Since I knew this wasn't a monobloc case and that the lugs were soldered on, I figured Lange could just remove the 4 lugs, recut/repolish them, and then reinstall/resolder them.

But Lange said no, they'd need to replace the entire middle case. I was curious about this, and the clarification that I got was that removing and reinstalling lugs is not trivial. I recall being told something like, "If a lug (or two??) gets bent/damaged, then Lange can remove it and reinstall/resolder it." That might explain what you were told on the factory tour. But apparently at some point, removing and reinstalling lugs isn't cost-effective or practical vs. just replacing the whole middle case. I'm not sure where Lange draw the line (or if there is a clear line). But in any case, the reason that lug removal/reinstallation is nontrivial is because the lugs are soldered and not just screwed in.

Also, I understand that it would be impossible (or impractical?) for Lange to use a monobloc case and still achieve the present effect of a brushed middle case surface (brushed in between the lugs) immediately adjacent to the highly polished, angled vertical lug chamfers.

Lange has an extensive restoration department, but there are things that they really can't do.

Soldering lugs onto cases is one of the most difficult parts of the process. To make it look clean and seamless is very difficult, and something that can't be "fixed" if it's broken. It's probably better to start over.

[RRJ]

Originally Posted by NYG1121

Hot take: comparing ALS to patek is unfair to patek. ALS is at a higher level and far more exclusive with next level of quality/finishing.

I think Ichiran posted a great comparison between ALS and Patek finishing. Pateks finishing on entry level pieces seems to be inferior, but it beats ALS on their higher end pieces.

[southlight]

Unless I‘ve missed something it was rather a claim than a real comparison. I would love to understand how Patek beats Lange on the high end pieces…

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by RRJ

I think Ichiran posted a great comparison between ALS and Patek finishing. Pateks finishing on entry level pieces seems to be inferior, but it beats ALS on their higher end pieces.

I don't know where that comes from, that higher end Pateks have better finishing than higher end ALS?

That's patently not true. Can it be a preference? Sure. But better, nope.

[Gebbeth]

I don't see where the higher end Lange is lesser than higher end Patek.

Lange Double Split vs. Patek 5370P-001.

In fact, I hate to use "vs" here. They are both magnificent movements, but it's a preference, not a casual statement of fact.