Oliver and Clarke 1803 Honeycomb Frankenwatch

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by Lindenlaz

Hi Guys,
This is Linden from Oliver and Clarke. I appreciate your passion about the watch, but I’d like to clear some stuff up. When I received the 1803 watch it had come in a case that in my opinion was overpolished and possessed an artificially retightened bracelet. To me that was unacceptable for a watch and dial of this prestige and quality. I changed it to this 1802 case because it was period correct and looked fantastic with the dial. As many of you know there is no way to guarantee any Day-Date dial came with the exact watch it is in. There is no guarantee that this dial came in that original 1803. It is generally acceptable to swap these parts as long as they are period correct. That is the consensus with all the major dealers and collectors. This information was disclosed to the buyer of the watch, so I don’t believe there is any misinformation here. I just wanted to present this watch/dial in a way that could show its full beauty. I also never stated in the description that the dial had originally come in this case, just that the bracelet was original to the watch (which it is.) I hope you can understand that we were being fair to both the buyer and seller of the piece. Thank you for your interest.

Sincerely,
Linden

Did you just swap the dial or the entire dial/movement combo?

Jose

[mountainjogger]

Maybe I need more coffee, but I am having a hard time following this thread and coming up with any conclusions. I found Springer's information was the most useful and but I am still lost with the big picture.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Maybe I need more coffee, but I am having a hard time following this thread and coming up with any conclusions. I found Springer's information was the most useful and but I am still lost with the big picture.

This thread is basically describing the business of most if not all Rolex vintage dealers in general....What's really new here ? ....
in short, their job is collecting parts left and right, build a watch with all legit parts (when possible), repaint this and that to have a matching color, claim it is rare and original (which is true somehow) and sale it for unreasonable price...

In comparison, a Porsche with a swapped engine worths half of the fully original same car ...

[BigBlue1]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

This thread is basically describing the business of most if not all Rolex vintage dealers in general....What's really new here ? ....
in short, their job is collecting parts left and right, build a watch with all legit parts (when possible), repaint this and that to have a matching color, claim it is rare and original (which is true somehow) and sale it for unreasonable price...

In comparison, a Porsche with a swapped engine worths half of the fully original same car ...

This
At the end of the day it’s a business. Not all business is honest business unfortunately. It is why it is very important for people to do there homework when purchasing if your unsure and or uncomfortable. It’s ok to ask. I have numerous times. I have been dupped in the past. It a lesson. When it comes to these Presidents, GMT and or a lot of older watches it seems to be more common than not. Maybe not married but have period correct parts.

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

This thread is basically describing the business of most if not all Rolex vintage dealers in general....What's really new here ? ....
in short, their job is collecting parts left and right, build a watch with all legit parts (when possible), repaint this and that to have a matching color, claim it is rare and original (which is true somehow) and sale it for unreasonable price...

In comparison, a Porsche with a swapped engine worths half of the fully original same car ...

Good post. There is no shortage of vintage parts floating around out there and many of these watches are cobbled together to make period correct pieces with these parts. That's just reality.

[Incroyable12]

Rolex doesn't engrave the movement number on the cases so it's impossible to tell otherwise.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Rolex doesn't engrave the movement number on the cases so it's impossible to tell otherwise.

Rolex would know. But they won’t tell us.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Rolex doesn't engrave the movement number on the cases so it's impossible to tell otherwise.

AP doesn't engrave the movement on the case as well but they have a service that offers full transparent and they can tell you if your watch is matching number ....
may be Rolex has similar archives like @Dan S mentionned, but they don't share obviously...


PS: somehow Omega , requires both case number and movement number to supply an extract which I believe is worse than AP /Patek way which provides your watch Infos/details based on the case serial....

[dhknola]

Still no answer from the dealer to Perez' question...

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

PS: somehow Omega , requires both case number and movement number to supply an extract which I believe is worse than AP /Patek way which provides your watch Infos/details based on the case serial....

The case number for most Omega watches since the 1940s is a reference number, cases are not serialized. But yes, they stopped provided Extracts for movements alone, and if you try to get an Extract for a movement that has been re-cased into the wrong watch, they will just tell you that there is a problem, and you won't get the Extract.

Longines, which provides historical information at no cost, also asks for the numbers on both movement (serial) and case (reference and/or production run), and photos. If they are mismatched in their records, Longines will tell you that the movement is not original to the watch. So I don't know if it's "worse" for them to ask for more information, it allows them to provide better information in return about the originality of the watch.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Arnozerosix

This thread is basically describing the business of most if not all Rolex vintage dealers in general....What's really new here ? ....
in short, their job is collecting parts left and right, build a watch with all legit parts (when possible), repaint this and that to have a matching color, claim it is rare and original (which is true somehow) and sale it for unreasonable price...

In comparison, a Porsche with a swapped engine worths half of the fully original same car ...

I agree with the essence of this, but I don't agree that every dealer is dishonest. I'd like to think there are still some good dealers who don't mix and match vintage Rolex parts, dials, hands, whatever, without disclosing it.

I can't imagine that someone like Andrew Shear would cobble together a watch just to try to create a more appealing example. And there are some other guys (frequent posters on this forum) who sell quite a lot of vintage or neo-classic Rolexes that I'd fully trust not to pull the crap that Oliver and Clarke did.

[Andjwhite]

This is a super long thread! There is a 1675 offered by O&C with fuschia bezel. The description goes into great detail on the history of 1675 bezel inserts produced. Only problem is the production year of this particular 1675 is likely after the time period when fuschia bezels were produced.

I have no problem with a description that says an original fuschia bezel insert is in the watch, but is likely not original to the watch. But the description clearly claims it is original to the watch.

Could be an outlier, and it is an original piece, but all of the red flags described, and the price point compared to other truly original fuschia 1675s on the market makes ya think .

Anyone feel free to correct me. I am not an expert on 1675s. Just did a little research.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dhknola]

Really great insights here between dealers that are honest and disclose everything they know versus a great many dealers like O&C that are just selling the dream from reused thoughts.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by Dan S

The case number for most Omega watches since the 1940s is a reference number, cases are not serialized. But yes, they stopped provided Extracts for movements alone, and if you try to get an Extract for a movement that has been re-cased into the wrong watch, they will just tell you that there is a problem, and you won't get the Extract.

Longines, which provides historical information at no cost, also asks for the numbers on both movement (serial) and case (reference and/or production run), and photos. If they are mismatched in their records, Longines will tell you that the movement is not original to the watch. So I don't know if it's "worse" for them to ask for more information, it allows them to provide better information in return about the originality of the watch.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by swish77

I agree with the essence of this, but I don't agree that every dealer is dishonest. I'd like to think there are still some good dealers who don't mix and match vintage Rolex parts, dials, hands, whatever, without disclosing it.

I can't imagine that someone like Andrew Shear would cobble together a watch just to try to create a more appealing example. And there are some other guys (frequent posters on this forum) who sell quite a lot of vintage or neo-classic Rolexes that I'd fully trust not to pull the crap that Oliver and Clarke did.

i won't say "every" dealer, but i keep thinking that "most" is the correct number