Oliver and Clarke 1803 Honeycomb Frankenwatch

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by asb396

I’ve posted about this watch before, I’m nearly 100% sure it was all original when I bought it. Sad to see the team at Oliver and Clarke swap pieces like this.

In that post you concluded that your dial was aftermarket. Is that the same dial in the Oliver and Clarke watch?

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Dan S

I guess anyone can claim that something is "common" or "acceptable", but that doesn't mean much to me given my understanding of the ethical compass of most dealers and big time collectors who look at watches as commodities and care only about money. Last time it was Goldberger's Daytona, now this, next week something else. Personally ... I find this sort of watch "optimization" distasteful, and I am highly skeptical that anything would have been disclosed if the OP hadn't exposed the situation.

But since Rolex won't share their records, it's the Wild West with no rules, and everyone has their own opinion about what's ok. That's why I appreciate the OP's pointing out what happened to his watch; it's always good to know how particular sellers are behaving. At least I can keep track in my spreadsheet.

You nor I are the intended market of these watch dealers. True collectors would never go for a piece like this. But it makes a great investment as the odds of being able to cobble together another one is slim to none.

Personally the fact that the community has generally accepted these optimizations for so long has turned me off of the vintage market. Unless I get it from the family of the original owner or the original owner themselves, I wouldn't trust anything on the market these days.


You might actually find it funny Dan, OP claims the dial is from 69-71, then posts the link to his watch in another thread that has his case dated to 78. And he believed it was a redial lol talk about casting stones from glass houses

[Incroyable12]

I'm not bothered by swapping parts as long as they are factory original and period correct.

Plenty of collectors and dealers pay big money for loose factory Arabic calendar discs and rare dials--what do you think they use them for? A rare vintage factory diamond dial for a WG DD often approaches $10k just for the dial alone.

Day-Dates came in a myriad of dials and indeed if you have a cooperative AD they'll order you any dial that your Day-Date originally came with for a fee.

Tons of onyx Day-Dates are described as factory original but supposedly most of them are service onyx dials from the Swedish AD. Apparently the Swedish AD was extremely liberal in ordering factory dials without the need for a service.

Unlike Patek or Vacheron there's almost no way of knowing a dial was original or not since up until recently ADs would let buyers pick and choose what dials they wanted. Some even offered upgrades like diamond bezels, etc. Also Rolex doesn't release archival information.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by 330ci

You might actually find it funny Dan, OP claims the dial is from 69-71, then posts the link to his watch in another thread that has his case dated to 78. And he believed it was a redial lol talk about casting stones from glass houses

That is funny. I didn't read that thread.

[indianmachine]

possibility vs certainty are two very different things. Is there some obligation for the seller to disclose if you know that parts have been swapped?

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by 330ci

An 1802 is not a different watch, its a different bezel. This dial was not unique to the 1803.

As for the bracelet. If you're buying a DD on an Oyster, you likely know what you're getting into. He says its an original bracelet, not original to the watch.

You should've been around 10 yrs ago when the sub market was getting hot. Almost every major dealer was swapping parts to create better examples, auction houses are full of them. As long as the parts are period correct, its been a fairly acceptable practice.

Bob Maron was sued by John Mayer for exactly this.

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by jgottsman11

First Class Dials sold the dial to O & C.

There are a few of these dealers on IG: JMP Watch Parts in Germany, Watchpartdoc in Texas, Tuscanyrose in NYC.

They all sell factory originals but it's the people who sell doctored things you have to look out for. For example there is a Vietnamese dealer who makes extremely convincing fake Stellas and Khanjar dials out of old factory dials.

[asb396]

Originally Posted by 330ci

You nor I are the intended market of these watch dealers. True collectors would never go for a piece like this. But it makes a great investment as the odds of being able to cobble together another one is slim to none.

Personally the fact that the community has generally accepted these optimizations for so long has turned me off of the vintage market. Unless I get it from the family of the original owner or the original owner themselves, I wouldn't trust anything on the market these days.


You might actually find it funny Dan, OP claims the dial is from 69-71, then posts the link to his watch in another thread that has his case dated to 78. And he believed it was a redial lol talk about casting stones from glass houses

Before watch was in my hand… bought it from Bedetti (an AD in Rome). This was part of my research. I made an assumption as rare 1803s like this were new to me.

[asb396]

Originally Posted by MrChamfers

In that post you concluded that your dial was aftermarket. Is that the same dial in the Oliver and Clarke watch?

I’m honest, I linked to a post where I was asking questions. Before and after I got the watch in my hands I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions… reasonable to me

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

If I wanted to screw people out of money using my intellect, I'd be a multimillionaire or in SBFs shoes.



The fact that this surprises you is cute to me.

The vintage watch market is frought with fraud and this is child's play in comparison to some of the stuff that passes the litmus test at large auction houses.

Anyone buying a 50yr old watch that's not being marketed by the original owner is asking for problems imo.

Just to quote you " i did my research and I believed it to be all original" truth is, you don't have a clue whether that dial came in your 1803, or the date wheel for that matter. And honestly an Italian date wheel with that dial without paperwork is suspicious as could be IMO.

Knowing the parts and paperwork I've sold to Italian dealers, theres not a snowballs chance in hell I'd buy anything coming out of that country. I'd estimate 75% of high end watches sold out of Italy have been doctored, or had parts added to complete their appearance. Hell I sold a Rolex pocket watch that used the same movement as the original Panerai Italian diver and not 6 months later one surfaced without an original dial in the same region. Almost guaranteed to be a fake made with the movement I sold.
Someone else paid me $500 for a set of blank French Tudor papers from 1977, I'll bet nothing nefarious happened with those

Simple fact is, you could send this watch into Rolex as it sits and they wouldn't require any of the parts to be changed. Because they're all authentic original Rolex parts that match the day date in question.

You have to be really careful when it comes to the linguistics of vintage watch advertising.

Call me all the names you want. I am just sharing what is pretty well known across the watch industry at this point. The amount of pristine, unique and rare pieces to pop up on the market over the past decade is unreal. Without established provenance, I have no reason to trust any watch. From this dealer or any of the others. Personally, I don't think there are half as many original watches as there are currently advertised on the market.

"Someone else paid me $500 for a set of blank French Tudor papers from 1977, I'll bet nothing nefarious happened with those"

Please elaborate.

[asb396]

Originally Posted by 330ci

If I wanted to screw people out of money using my intellect, I'd be a multimillionaire or in SBFs shoes.



The fact that this surprises you is cute to me.

The vintage watch market is frought with fraud and this is child's play in comparison to some of the stuff that passes the litmus test at large auction houses.

Anyone buying a 50yr old watch that's not being marketed by the original owner is asking for problems imo.

Just to quote you " i did my research and I believed it to be all original" truth is, you don't have a clue whether that dial came in your 1803, or the date wheel for that matter. And honestly an Italian date wheel with that dial without paperwork is suspicious as could be IMO.

Knowing the parts and paperwork I've sold to Italian dealers, theres not a snowballs chance in hell I'd buy anything coming out of that country. I'd estimate 75% of high end watches sold out of Italy have been doctored, or had parts added to complete their appearance. Hell I sold a Rolex pocket watch that used the same movement as the original Panerai Italian diver and not 6 months later one surfaced without an original dial in the same region. Almost guaranteed to be a fake made with the movement I sold.
Someone else paid me $500 for a set of blank French Tudor papers from 1977, I'll bet nothing nefarious happened with those

Simple fact is, you could send this watch into Rolex as it sits and they wouldn't require any of the parts to be changed. Because they're all authentic original Rolex parts that match the day date in question.

You have to be really careful when it comes to the linguistics of vintage watch advertising.

Call me all the names you want. I am just sharing what is pretty well known across the watch industry at this point. The amount of pristine, unique and rare pieces to pop up on the market over the past decade is unreal. Without established provenance, I have no reason to trust any watch. From this dealer or any of the others. Personally, I don't think there are half as many original watches as there are currently advertised on the market.

Agree with lots of this, it’s just a bit sad. Italy is fraught with frankens. I now live here and it’s impossible. I bought this from an AD and asked them about the origins of the watch. As it was told to them it was single owner from day 1 to them. It had never been serviced, the AD did in fact polish and service the watch…

Regardless I felt it right to tell the story in case the buyer wanted to know. It is a cool watch, it may be even cooler in an 1802 case with oyster…

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

If I wanted to screw people out of money using my intellect, I'd be a multimillionaire or in SBFs shoes.



The fact that this surprises you is cute to me.

The vintage watch market is frought with fraud and this is child's play in comparison to some of the stuff that passes the litmus test at large auction houses.

Anyone buying a 50yr old watch that's not being marketed by the original owner is asking for problems imo.

Just to quote you " i did my research and I believed it to be all original" truth is, you don't have a clue whether that dial came in your 1803, or the date wheel for that matter. And honestly an Italian date wheel with that dial without paperwork is suspicious as could be IMO.

Knowing the parts and paperwork I've sold to Italian dealers, theres not a snowballs chance in hell I'd buy anything coming out of that country. I'd estimate 75% of high end watches sold out of Italy have been doctored, or had parts added to complete their appearance. Hell I sold a Rolex pocket watch that used the same movement as the original Panerai Italian diver and not 6 months later one surfaced without an original dial in the same region. Almost guaranteed to be a fake made with the movement I sold.
Someone else paid me $500 for a set of blank French Tudor papers from 1977, I'll bet nothing nefarious happened with those

Simple fact is, you could send this watch into Rolex as it sits and they wouldn't require any of the parts to be changed. Because they're all authentic original Rolex parts that match the day date in question.

You have to be really careful when it comes to the linguistics of vintage watch advertising.

Call me all the names you want. I am just sharing what is pretty well known across the watch industry at this point. The amount of pristine, unique and rare pieces to pop up on the market over the past decade is unreal. Without established provenance, I have no reason to trust any watch. From this dealer or any of the others. Personally, I don't think there are half as many original watches as there are currently advertised on the market.

"Knowing the parts and paperwork I've sold to Italian dealers, theres not a snowballs chance in hell I'd buy anything coming out of that country. I'd estimate 75% of high end watches sold out of Italy have been doctored, or had parts added to complete their appearance."

Ok now I'm confused. Why wouldn't you buy anything coming out of Italy if swopping out parts that are period correct is "a fairly acceptable practice"?

[rootbeer7]

Non-professional models unlike sports ones had dials & bracelets swapped out by ADs in the past. No one knows how a watch started unless you have original photos of the watch as born. Provided the pieces are original and with period correct parts who can tell if they started this way.
OP you sold the watch and we’re happy at that point. O&C I can’t see doing anything else than many other dealers. If it was described as ‘one owner original’, then I’d have a problem.

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

An 1802 is not a different watch, its a different bezel. This dial was not unique to the 1803.

As for the bracelet. If you're buying a DD on an Oyster, you likely know what you're getting into. He says its an original bracelet, not original to the watch.

You should've been around 10 yrs ago when the sub market was getting hot. Almost every major dealer was swapping parts to create better examples, auction houses are full of them. As long as the parts are period correct, its been a fairly acceptable practice.

Just to clear another thing up...Is the "new" braclet period correct or not?

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

Non-professional models unlike sports ones had dials & bracelets swapped out by ADs in the past. No one knows how a watch started unless you have original photos of the watch as born. Provided the pieces are original and with period correct parts who can tell if they started this way.
OP you sold the watch and we’re happy at that point. O&C I can’t see doing anything else than many other dealers. If it was described as ‘one owner original’, then I’d have a problem.

O&C described it as "super rare". I don't know about you but that is somewhat misleading. I mean, how exactly does one determine how rare a piece is if it's acceptable practice for AD's & dealers to swop parts, dials & bracelets?


Here's an extract from O&C's Instagram post as per the OP's first post:

"This ultra rare and absolutely exceptional 1965 Rolex Day-Date Ref. 1802 Guilloche is now available for purchase through DM only! Featuring a razor sharp smooth bezel case, minty dial and original Swiss rivet bracelet. DM me for more information!"

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

O&C described it as "super rare". I don't know about you but that is somewhat misleading. I mean, how exactly does one determine how rare a piece is if it's acceptable practice for AD's & dealers to swop parts, dials & bracelets?


Here's an extract from O&C's Instagram post as per the OP's first post:

"This ultra rare and absolutely exceptional 1965 Rolex Day-Date Ref. 1802 Guilloche is now available for purchase through DM only! Featuring a razor sharp smooth bezel case, minty dial and original Swiss rivet bracelet. DM me for more information!"

Many things weren't that popular back then such as gold Oyster rivet bracelets or gold Milanese bracelets on Day-Dates so they're rare now. Smooth bezel Presidents are another.

They were available from ADs but didn't sell that well. Either that or they were extremely expensive thus rare like the vintage Super Presidents which had factory diamonds everywhere on the case and bracelet.

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

"Someone else paid me $500 for a set of blank French Tudor papers from 1977, I'll bet nothing nefarious happened with those"

Please elaborate.

They use the blank documents to type up fake papers using old typewriters or vintage fountain pen ink to make up a complete set.

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

They use the blank documents to type up fake papers using old typewriters or vintage fountain pen ink to make up a complete set.

Yes I realise that. I am just at a loss for words as to how something like that is just so casually mentioned!!

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

"Someone else paid me $500 for a set of blank French Tudor papers from 1977, I'll bet nothing nefarious happened with those"

Please elaborate.

Whats there to elaborate?

Someone paid $500 for a blank piece of paper that said Tudor and had an AD stamp on it.

Truthfully I didn't expect them to bring over $50 as a curio, when they hit $500 and the buyer actually paid i was floored.

I figured someone would want them to have a set of blank papers with their watch as that would be cool. @ $500 though, i imagine they were filled out and someone is getting sold a dream

If I were a betting man. There is likely a Tudor Snowflake somewhere out there with French papers, and a Canadian AD stamping on it. This is why box sets add no value to me unless it's from the original owner.


The pocket watch is actually the scarier of the 2 that I mentioned,

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

"Knowing the parts and paperwork I've sold to Italian dealers, theres not a snowballs chance in hell I'd buy anything coming out of that country. I'd estimate 75% of high end watches sold out of Italy have been doctored, or had parts added to complete their appearance."

Ok now I'm confused. Why wouldn't you buy anything coming out of Italy if swopping out parts that are period correct is "a fairly acceptable practice"?

Fairly acceptable implies a larger part of the community sees no issue with this practice.

I wouldn't spend my money on doctored watches. If I wanted to doctor watches I'd do it myself, and save the money over what these dealers are pushing.

The vintage market has largely created its own reality. Through my experience bringing honest watches and parts to market. I saw the inner workings of what was going on in the industry. And as a result I wouldn't trust any of it.


But that isn't to say my feelings are representative of the community as a whole.

The fact that these doctored watches trade hands regularly with most knowing that they didn't leave the factory that way implies to me, that the market really doesn't care.

Whether people want to be blissfully unaware of what goes on in the industry or not is up to them.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Bob Maron was sued by John Mayer for exactly this.

And that lawsuit went nowhere

John Mayer was actively buying known fakes back in the day too ��

Did those questionable Daytonas he was offering $75-100k ea for on VRF ever end up being authenticated as legit?

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Fairly acceptable implies a larger part of the community sees no issue with this practice.

I wouldn't spend my money on doctored watches. If I wanted to doctor watches I'd do it myself, and save the money over what these dealers are pushing.

The vintage market has largely created its own reality. Through my experience bringing honest watches and parts to market. I saw the inner workings of what was going on in the industry. And as a result I wouldn't trust any of it.


But that isn't to say my feelings are representative of the community as a whole.

The fact that these doctored watches trade hands regularly with most knowing that they didn't leave the factory that way implies to me, that the market really doesn't care.

Whether people want to be blissfully unaware of what goes on in the industry or not is up to them.

Just look at all the 6 figure Khanjar Stellas, etc.

I'll bet most of them were swapped in if the dials are even factory original.

There are also some new dials that are still available as special order from the AD that are worth more on the second hand market than what you'd pay if you ordered them from the Rolex factory. It's because most ADs refuse to order these kinds of parts now.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Just look at all the 6 figure Khanjar Stellas, etc.

I'll bet most of them were swapped in if the dials are even factory original.

There are also some new dials that are still available as special order from the AD that are worth more on the second hand market than what you'd pay if you ordered them from the Rolex factory. Most ADs refuse to order these kinds of parts now.

The Khanjar craze was nuts. I almost got taken on one I was almost certain was legit. Not on a stella though, it was a black dial with red Khanjar
I still want a UAE dial. But not sure i'd ever trust one.


As for Rolex, they've been tightening the parts chain for years. Was a bummer when they cut all the independents with parts accounts.

I think they stopped allowing you to switch dials because people were just buying what they had in the showcase and sending it in for service and paying to have the dial swapped to get what they wanted without the wait and Rolex wasn't too fond of that lol

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

O&C described it as "super rare". I don't know about you but that is somewhat misleading. I mean, how exactly does one determine how rare a piece is if it's acceptable practice for AD's & dealers to swop parts, dials & bracelets?


Here's an extract from O&C's Instagram post as per the OP's first post:

"This ultra rare and absolutely exceptional 1965 Rolex Day-Date Ref. 1802 Guilloche is now available for purchase through DM only! Featuring a razor sharp smooth bezel case, minty dial and original Swiss rivet bracelet. DM me for more information!"

It is super rare, go out and try to find a Guilloche dial, an 1802 case, a 20mm gold rivet bracelet and a Spanish datewheel. My guess is you couldn't recreate this if you tried.

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

It is super rare, go out and try to find a Guilloche dial, an 1802 case, a 20mm gold rivet bracelet and a Spanish datewheel. My guess is you couldn't recreate this if you tried.

You are kidding right?

I literally just went onto Chrono24 & found numerous examples with a gold 1802 case, Spanish datewheel & gold rivet bracelet.

The only thing that is rare is the dial which is why I assume the OP pointed out what happened to his watch in the first place.

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by jgottsman11

That's funny. They have a 18039 with wood dial. That wood dial was swapped into that white gold watch as I was offered that same wood dial as dial only. They're probably marking it up $15,000 after they assembled it all

Out of curiosity... how much was the birchwood offered to you for?

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

You are kidding right?

I literally just went onto Chrono24 & found numerous examples with a gold 1802 case, Spanish datewheel & gold rivet bracelet.

The only thing that is rare is the dial which is why I assume the OP pointed out what happened to his watch in the first place.

Compare how many 1802 cases there are to 1803, look at the prices of 20mm Gold rivet bracelets, and obviously the date wheels are available but more expensive than an English date wheel. The parts are much more scarce and expensive than their counterparts as a result. That's due to rarity.

Just because stuff is available doesn't mean it isn't rare, and I'm sure the dealers with all these products available are price gouging for what they do.

You failed to complete the task as outlined. Because regardless how much money you have, you can't just go out and buy the parts to cobble one of these together. The parts used by O&C all appear to be in pretty top shape too. Which is another thing you have to consider when choosing parts to represent a watch like this.

Have fun on chrono 24 �� definitely not full of doctored watches there

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Compare how many 1802 cases there are to 1803, look at the prices of 20mm Gold rivet bracelets, and obviously the date wheels are available but more expensive than an English date wheel. The parts are much more scarce and expensive than their counterparts as a result. That's due to rarity.

Just because stuff is available doesn't mean it isn't rare, and I'm sure the dealers with all these products available are price gouging for what they do.

You failed to complete the task as outlined. Because regardless how much money you have, you can't just go out and buy the parts to cobble one of these together. The parts used by O&C all appear to be in pretty top shape too. Which is another thing you have to consider when choosing parts to represent a watch like this.

Have fun on chrono 24 �� definitely not full of doctored watches there

So I only managed to find 3 out of 4 components within 5 minutes. What's your actual point & how does that relate to the OP's post?

As for the parts used by O&C appearing to be in "pretty top shape"... there's literally a gap between the bracelet & the case & zero movement pics. In addition to that, refer to this post from the List of vintage watch dealers thread:

"Very disappointing experience with Oliver and Clarke. Watch delivered with a caseback not sealed properly, completely wrong spring bars (one that would not even hold to the watch), and dial/movement assembly not holding properly to the case (dial moving when manipulating the crown). On top of that, a crack in the tritium of the hour hand, not verbally disclosed. Seller states it was visible on pictures which was not the case… Would not recommend this dealer."

That said, what gets me most is that you have on numerous occasions stated that the community has generally accepted these optimizations for so long that it has turned you off of the vintage market. So what is it going to be? Are you for Frankenwatches or not??

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Whats there to elaborate?

Someone paid $500 for a blank piece of paper that said Tudor and had an AD stamp on it.

Truthfully I didn't expect them to bring over $50 as a curio, when they hit $500 and the buyer actually paid i was floored.

I figured someone would want them to have a set of blank papers with their watch as that would be cool. @ $500 though, i imagine they were filled out and someone is getting sold a dream

If I were a betting man. There is likely a Tudor Snowflake somewhere out there with French papers, and a Canadian AD stamping on it. This is why box sets add no value to me unless it's from the original owner.


The pocket watch is actually the scarier of the 2 that I mentioned,

You could perhaps start with how selling blank papers is not considered fraudulent in any way.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

You could perhaps start with how selling blank papers is not considered fraudulent in any way.

You are splitting hairs now. People sell old Rolex items all the time and yes some are even "open" papers that are purchased to complete sets. Selling the open documents isn't fraudulent however if the buyer chooses to fill in the papers they are the ones committing the fraudulent act.