the Coronavirus outbreak thread

[superdog]

Originally Posted by gnuyork

Interesting? It was the only thing you wrote that stuck out like a sore thumb. It was not factual and completely emotion based, calling out a behavior that you yourself did to a degree. And I don't fault you. I did the same. But that was a rather harsh thing to a say either way, and not remotely realistic.

I think rationing could be the way forward until we can get through the mess, if ever. It seems stores are implementing that now for certain items. Makes sense.

interesting because it is nearly impossible to not offend someone somehow. sorry.

[LandWatch]

Originally Posted by Uggi

Me too. Have you seen the Nicola Sturgeon spoof? Comedy gold. There are many more.

Are you able to load the link pleas? I need a laugh ...

[gnuyork]

Originally Posted by superdog

interesting because it is nearly impossible to not offend someone somehow. sorry.

I wasn't offended.

[mgsooner]

Originally Posted by gnuyork

Could you define hoarding? Did you yourself not stock up on supplies early on, like I did (thought I remember reading you did this, and sealing everything in plastic containers)... I wouldn't say I hoarded, but got a few more items planning for long term, like dried beans, rices, pasta, etc. all before the media frenzy.

I think people are harshly criticizing hoarders, and it's very unfortunate that has come to this, but I can also understand the frenzy give the nature of the situation. I seriously don't want to leave my house for months, and I know I'm going to need to eventually though. I did not get nearly enough toilet paper for the record, but I have not run out yet. Hopefully the situation gets under control for everybody before too long.

I think there are the people who were just doing what they thought was right for their families RE: preparing and then there are the people who were just being jerks. The jerk category would be Hand Sanitizer Guy and the people buying 10 value packs of toilet paper.

The issue is this: if every single person that walks into a store on a given day buys just one box of spaghetti, it is going to cause a supply chain problem. So people don't even have to "hoard" for us to run into a problem. It's going to be a tough nut to crack.

[djgallo]

Originally Posted by superdog

Okay. A few people have asked me what my doctor told me, so I will share.

Please understand that I am paraphrasing. And remember her husband is on the frontline at Holy Name Hospital in Teaneck. So, I am getting her first hand experience. And FWIW, she is very concerned for her colleagues. She has not been asked to join the fight as of yet. Neither has one of my best buddies who is a nurse in FLA.

Clearly, much of what she said is no surprise and has already been discussed here ad nauseum.

It is very scary. It spreads very fast. It has likely infected far more people than are being reported. The increase in tests has helped to determine the mortality rate is around 2%. But in fact, it is likely a lot lower than that because so many more people have it and simply don't know it. For those that do perish, the disease also tends to move very fast in that regard.

The virus can live on a surface for over 2 weeks.

Very likely it is impossible to contain. If the world shuts down and reopens with even a few people still infected, it will come back. Even a C-Shot (similar to a flu shot) will likely not be able to wipe out this virus. This is likely going to be around for the foreseeable future. There is every possibility, that similar to the flu, this will be seasonal. Comparisons to the flu are both not fair and fair. Not fair because it is not flu. It is very different. Fair because it most closely resembles the flu in a lot of ways and we have no other point of reference.

It does appear to be worse for certain demographics (similar to the flu), but young people are getting sick as well. They have a better chance of healing than those that have underlying issues. Healthy people can get sick and die. However, by and large, this is attacking the older, the heavy, and the people with weak immune systems or rather immune compromised systems.

My personal commentary, which is likely not a surprise to many based on many of my comments:

This is super scary. I have seen the videos and pictures in hospitals. And it is horrifying.

But there is no good answer. And given how contagious this is, I am not sure all of the efforts are going to help in the grand scheme. I am in the camp that wants to mitigate the effects on both sides of the health challenge and the economic challenge.

I do think we need to find a balanced approach.

If we could beat this thing by shutting down the world, I would be all for that. Sign me up. However, that does not appear to be possible. Not even remotely so.

It sounds like we need to take extra precautions with those at highest risk and they should stay isolated as long as possible. And we certainly need to continue social distancing. We should never implement hand shaking as a greeting ever again. But it also sounds like we need find a way to proceed forward with this new challenge, lest we throw out the baby with the bath water.

Those cultures that kiss on each cheek or even one, as a greeting should ban that forever as well.

People should stop smoking cigarettes. They should be banned forever. People should exercise and eat fruits and vegetables.

People hoarding things should all be put in one city, together. And locked in. Forever. With a finite amount of supplies. It should be televised.

Your use of the word “forever” is way overblown.....

Otherwise....you make some very good points!

[Letsgodiving]

No doubt that many have been hoarding to one degree or another. I have stocked up a little myself but there are also millions of people who eat out every day or several times a week that now have to prepare their own meals and they are buying much more in groceries than normal so this is also part of the grocery shortage picture I would assume.

[djgallo]

Originally Posted by gnuyork

Could you define hoarding? Did you yourself not stock up on supplies early on, like I did (thought I remember reading you did this, and sealing everything in plastic containers)... I wouldn't say I hoarded, but got a few more items planning for long term, like dried beans, rices, pasta, etc. all before the media frenzy.

I think people are harshly criticizing hoarders, and it's very unfortunate that has come to this, but I can also understand the frenzy give the nature of the situation. I seriously don't want to leave my house for months, and I know I'm going to need to eventually though. I did not get nearly enough toilet paper for the record, but I have not run out yet. Hopefully the situation gets under control for everybody before too long.

Hoarding only makes a bad situation worse.....for others.....we are all in this together

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by superdog

lmao. I knew I should not have posted any personal thoughts. and I assumed it would be a challenge from you in some way, before I even read your actual words.

my mistake. I was also obviously being a bit sarcastic. I did not mean to actually put the hoarders on an island together and televise it either. I apologize for attempt at humor.

for smoking, almost my entire team smokes. including my best friend and COO. I worry for him and them. If they get this virus, I would assume that smoking would make them more susceptible to the more severe problems.

in this case, for me, it is not about spreading the disease. it is about reducing the possibility of, when it takes hold, that it gets worse. I personally think nearly everyone is going to get it anyway. no matter what we do.

but yes, if we are going to really debate banning behaviors based on this virus than alcohol would be logical. Not only for the reasons you say, but also because it lowers the immune system and would make someone more susceptible to getting the more severe effects of the disease.

for the record, I was being facetious. Besides social distancing, I do not think we should be banning anyones behaviors. Sorry if that came off wrong.

Sorry if I came off wrong, I wasn't really challenging you so much as pointing something that's related to what happened here in Hong Kong a few days ago.

Here they are very open and specific as to where and when people who've tested positive, right down to the apartment building they live in (before shuffled off to the hospital) or where there were groups (a wedding on this date at such and such a place, for example) so others in town are aware. They've also not closed businesses, eateries, had "shelter in place", etc. They advocated companies to allow people to work from home but that's about it. They do have strict quarantine rules and electronic monitoring for those who have to self-isolate at home. There's so many doing it now (about 20,000) that the 2 weeks is just part of life in the city.

Last weekend there was a positive test for a lady who it seems was out partying (in an area of town known for partying) that has fallen back into being a draw for too much loose social contacting. This particular lady was..ahem.. "social contacting" to the highest degree with a group of friends.

Once the awareness was out there, not so much because of this 1 person but because along with the inbound HKers bringing new cases in from abroad a sense that too many people were relaxing while out partying too much, the government moved pretty quickly and announced the ban of alcohol sales in all restaurants and pubs effective a few days ago.

That they didn't shut down the pubs and restaurants entirely, but only banned alcohol sales, allows the businesses to stay open to sell food and non-alcoholic drinks instead of shuttering them entirely. In other words, they don't advocate crowds, but they also recognize that a bunch of sober people around each other acting responsibly are far less likely to cause a problem than a bunch of inebriated ones who, as the night wears on, get more careless.

[mbalmz]

this is long but I found it pretty helpful... this is a covid-19 doc at weill cornell (one of the largest hospitals in NYC).

[superdog]

Originally Posted by CRM114

Sorry if I came off wrong, I wasn't really challenging you so much as pointing something that's related to what happened here in Hong Kong a few days ago.

Here they are very open and specific as to where and when people who've tested positive, right down to the apartment building they live in (before shuffled off to the hospital) or where there were groups (wedding and such and such a place, for example) so others in town are aware.

Last weekend there was a positive test for a lady who it seems was out partying (in an area of town known for partying) that has fallen back into being a draw for too much loose social contacting. This particular lady was..ahem.. "social contacting" to the highest degree with a group of friends.

Once the awareness was out there, not so much because of this 1 person, but because along with the inbound HKers bringing new cases in from abroad a sense that too many people were relaxing while out partying too much, the government moved pretty quickly and announced the ban of alcohol sales in all restaurants and pubs effective a few days ago.

That they didn't shut down the pubs and restaurants entirely, but only banned alcohol sales, allows the businesses to stay open to sell food and non-alcoholic drinks instead of shuttering them entirely. In other words, they don't advocate crowds, but they also recognize that a bunch of sober people around each other acting responsibly are far less likely to cause a problem than a bunch of inebriated ones who, as the night wears on, get more careless.

no problem at all.

clearly tensions are high. couple that with the sometimes difficult communication via a medium such as this one and things can get misconstrued. I am clearly not immune myself.

and thank you for your additional communication and explanation.

stay safe.

[RWH]

Maybe my definition of hoarding is slightly different. I don't see some preparedness such as stocking up to count as hoarding. I am very lucky that my family has a habit of just buying things in bulk. Between my sister, mom and myself in each of our houses we have at least 50 rolls of TP, at least 5 cases of bottled water, and lots of soap/gloves/and even masks for some odd reason . I have not bought a thing other than food since the start even with the mass panic buying.

What I think is hoarding for example is a guy that I saw at BJs buying 15 cases of baby wipes and he would probably buy more if the shelf didn't get cleared out by him. Also the guys in New York that has cases of hand sanitizer and tries to sell them for $20 a bottle. Funny thing also is I have a friend who hoarded TP for no reason and he hasn't bought a roll for at least 5 years. He told me I can have as much TP as I want if I need any

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

No doubt that many have been hoarding to one degree or another. I have stocked up a little myself but there are also millions of people who eat out every day or several times a week that now have to prepare their own meals and they are buying much more in groceries than normal so this is also part of the grocery shortage picture I would assume.

great point.

fwiw, we are actually getting delivery as much as possible. keeping the restaurants as busy (or helping to do our part), maximizing what we have, and reducing the need to go to the store.

[CRM114]

Originally Posted by superdog

no problem at all.

clearly tensions are high. couple that with the sometimes difficult communication via a medium such as this one and things can get misconstrued. I am clearly not immune myself.

and thank you for your additional communication and explanation.

stay safe.

No sweat and you please stay safe as well. The fact that you're doing your part to keep the essential business of distribution and logistics going is what'll give people the confidence to not freak out believing there's no tomorrow.

Personally, I think the idea of "Hoarder Games" in a locked city would make great TV.

[RNHC]

I used to enjoy watching Doomsday Preppers. I thought some of the people on the show were downright nuts but now I have a much better appreciation for prepping. I'm even thinking about getting a gun again but I may be too late. Apparently there has been a run on guns and ammo as well.

[77T]

On the topic of hoarding, remember that the CDC issued an advisory 3 weeks ago...

The one saying stock-up on supplies - to be prepared for up to 2 weeks of family needs. That inadvertently triggered people to buy. And some might have thought, “I’d better double that just to be safe”. And some people had to shop for their household, an elderly family members home, and/or disabled neighbors.

For example, some people only heard that CDC advisory via TV news - like this story: https://youtu.be/wYtGfqV-bzY

Now if you agree a picture is worth a thousand words, just look at the 00:20 second mark.

I’m not attacking media, but in that market (Las Vegas) over 90,000 subscribers to the KTNV YT channel saw the images and heard a dog whistle to buy big.

Every media market would have seen/heard a slightly different dog whistle.

Earthquake zone dwellers are programmed to figure out how to be self-sufficient without water, electricity, shelter. Maybe Blizzard zone dwellers react similarly, as might Hurricane zone dwellers.

Couple that with this data point: Nearly 40 percent of Americans live close to the coast. So that might have amplified buying patterns as well. Because they have preparation thought patterns for multiple disaster types. The inadvertent CDC dog whistle was that COVID might spiral into doomsday. I don’t think anyone could be charged with overstating it.

Here in ATL, Costco looked like a holiday crowd buying cases of water, TP, camping gear, generators, canopies, etc.

So anyone who stocked-up just did what they were asked to do by their national officials.

Hoarding? I see that as a person who does not buy for personal use and wants to profiteer.


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[jonnyz1245]

Originally Posted by joeychitwood

Did you see Governor Cuomo describing the situation in New York?

For anyone interested, Cuomo gives a great fact based press conference daily. Its broadcast daily by a few networks. Usually around 8:00 am west coast time. I am watching it now on CNN.

This is not going away anytime soon and NY predicts the apex to be 22 days from today. It is getting bad in NY and other places.

Stay safe and healthy.

[gnuyork]

Originally Posted by 77T

On the topic of hoarding, remember that the CDC issued an advisory 3 weeks ago...

The one saying stock-up on supplies -to be prepared for up to 2 weeks of family needs. That inadvertently triggered people to buy. And some might have thought, “I’d better double that just to be safe”. And some people had to shop for their household, an elderly family members home, and/or disabled neighbors.

For example, some people only heard that CDC advisory via TV news - like this story: https://youtu.be/wYtGfqV-bzY

Now if you agree a picture is worth a thousand words, just look at the 00:20 second mark.

I’m not attacking media, but in that market (Las Vegas) over 90,000 subscribers to the KTNV YT channel saw the images and heard a dog whistle to buy big.

Every media market would have seen/heard a slightly different dog whistle.

Earthquake zone dwellers are programmed to figure out how to be self-sufficient without water, electricity, shelter. Maybe Blizzard zone dwellers react similarly, as might Hurricane zone dwellers.

Couple that with this data point: Nearly 40 percent of Americans live close to the coast. So that might have amplified buying patterns as well.

Here in ATL, Costco looked like a holiday crowd buying cases of water, TP, camping gear, generators, canopies, etc.

So anyone who stocked-up just did what they were asked to do by their national officials.

Hoarding? I see that as a person who does not buy for personal use and wants to profiteer.


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Well put, Paul. I agree.

[77T]

Originally Posted by superdog

fwiw, we are actually getting delivery as much as possible. keeping the restaurants as busy (or helping to do our part), maximizing what we have, and reducing the need to go to the store.

The AD and the Porsche dealer are now doing the same...just sayin’...maybe time to stock up?



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[Dawg2]

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/down...ta-summary.pdf

Really good and detailed information on ages, status etc. of NY infections. This may provide a pretty clear picture of why social distancing is important.

97% of the deaths are from the ages of 45 and up.

Deaths
0 -17 0%
18 - 44 3%
45 - 64 22%
65 - 74 23%
75 and older 52%


It says 95% of the deaths had underlying health issues

(Diabetes, lung disease, cancer, immunodeficiency, heart disease, hypertension, asthma, kidney disease and GI ' Liver disease.)

[77T]

Originally Posted by jonnyz1245

For anyone interested, Cuomo gives a great fact based press conference daily. Its broadcast daily by a few networks. Usually around 8:00 am west coast time. I am watching it now on CNN.



This is not going away anytime soon and NY predicts the apex to be 22 days from today. It is getting bad in NY and other places.



Stay safe and healthy.

Yes, he is back into a biz suit and sounds less harried as past briefings.

NY is dealing with a big issue - many densely populated cities, as well as broad less populated areas.

He says NY has a 15x case load problem compared to California, NJ, etc.

If they figure it out, we can all learn from their experience.


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[gmh1013]

Originally Posted by RNHC

I used to enjoy watching Doomsday Preppers. I thought some of the people on the show were downright nuts but now I have a much better appreciation for prepping. I'm even thinking about getting a gun again but I may be too late. Apparently there has been a run on guns and ammo as well.

Everything is sold.....they showed an Academy a local store in TX that is a big hunting and camping store had zero left.....ammo was gone.
Ive had people calling me wanting to by stuff

[Ferdelious]

Originally Posted by superdog

great point.

fwiw, we are actually getting delivery as much as possible. keeping the restaurants as busy (or helping to do our part), maximizing what we have, and reducing the need to go to the store.

First post in this thread but I have been following diligently. I've just felt that it's a very polarizing topic and I don't have the expertise or knowledge to make accurate statements or assumptions regarding a pandemic like this.

But in response to your post I've felt guilty because I haven't been supporting the local restaurants for over a week. I bought food in case of a lock down and have been cooking at home. I fear that many of the restaurants I frequent won't survive this.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by CRM114

No sweat and you please stay safe as well. The fact that you're doing your part to keep the essential business of distribution and logistics going is what'll give people the confidence to not freak out believing there's no tomorrow.

Personally, I think the idea of "Hoarder Games" in a locked city would make great TV.

thank you for that. it means a lot.

[superdog]

I just got back from my doctors office. I was picking up some new meds. I also went to the UPS store to get something notarized.

I found it interesting that the woman behind the desk was not wearing gloves at either place.

I was. But at this point it is suspect to touch anything.

If I open the door and touch my pen? Or my phone? Or my pants? What then?

Interesting times. I think as much as possible we need to keep our chin up, and be strong. Character is defined during tough times, not during easy times.

[RW16610]

Originally Posted by superdog

I just got back from my doctors office. I was picking up some new meds. I also went to the UPS store to get something notarized.

I found it interesting that the woman behind the desk was not wearing gloves at either place.

I was. But at this point it is suspect to touch anything.

If I open the door and touch my pen? Or my phone? Or my pants? What then?

Interesting times. I think as much as possible we need to keep our chin up, and be strong. Character is defined during tough times, not during easy times.

Great points, Seth. They had an ICU nurse in the Toronto area on tv today outside of a retailer. They had PPE such as gloves, and even masks but were touching them and also had an improper fit the nurse pointed out.

It's great to see more and more people doing their part to help plank the curve, ASAP. But as you say we must keep our chins up, be sensible, and get through this.

[RWH]

Originally Posted by superdog

I just got back from my doctors office. I was picking up some new meds. I also went to the UPS store to get something notarized.

I found it interesting that the woman behind the desk was not wearing gloves at either place.

That's true and I believe gloves aren't mentioned enough compared to masks. I have a box of gloves in my car. I put it on a pair when I leave the car and throw it away before I get back in the car for extra precaution. In this situation it's better to be safe than sorry.

I also disinfect my front door every few days. So far the building I live in are disinfecting the elevator and lobby door everyday

[djgallo]

Originally Posted by 77T

Hoarding? I see that as a person who does not buy for personal use and wants to profiteer.


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People that panic and buy more than is required ...are also hoarding.

If 10 people go into a store and each buy 20 bags of beans, 20 bags of rice, and (10 large pkgs) of toilet paper for their use....it sounds like it’s ok by you if they are buying it because they aren't selling it. The next 100 people that come into the store to buy these items - can’t ....and we all know that is what has been happening....this behavior makes the overall situation worse, and needs to be discouraged.

[benvh]

Originally Posted by superdog

I just got back from my doctors office. I was picking up some new meds. I also went to the UPS store to get something notarized.

I found it interesting that the woman behind the desk was not wearing gloves at either place.

I was. But at this point it is suspect to touch anything.

If I open the door and touch my pen? Or my phone? Or my pants? What then?

Interesting times. I think as much as possible we need to keep our chin up, and be strong. Character is defined during tough times, not during easy times.

I showed my son this video yesterday to emphasize the importance of hand washing. It's pretty interesting to see how easily things (like germs) get passed around via hands and touching, especially in groups. Obviously he is using an analog for actual germs/viruses, but it gets the point across.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5-dI74zxPg

Ben

[gnuyork]

Originally Posted by benvh

I showed my son this video yesterday to emphasize the importance of hand washing. It's pretty interesting to see how easily things (like germs) get passed around via hands and touching, especially in groups. Obviously he is using an analog for actual germs/viruses, but it gets the point across.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5-dI74zxPg

Ben

Excellent video, Thanks for sharing.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Ferdelious

First post in this thread but I have been following diligently. I've just felt that it's a very polarizing topic and I don't have the expertise or knowledge to make accurate statements or assumptions regarding a pandemic like this.

But in response to your post I've felt guilty because I haven't been supporting the local restaurants for over a week. I bought food in case of a lock down and have been cooking at home. I fear that many of the restaurants I frequent won't survive this.

No better time than the present.

Order some dinner. Get extra for lunch tomorrow.