Opinions on this 1987 5513 Sub

[RFC]

This is a 1987 glossy dial 5513 listed as an unpolished original and with the original warranty punched paper. Matching bracelet. Service history unknown.

From my limited experience in Rolex vintage, I can’t tell if it has been relumed or is the dial authentic. The lume in the hands does not match the lume spots but that’s not necessarily unusual right?. About late 5513 glossy tritum dials do they patina like this?

About the case it does look thick and sharp and so do the chamfers/bevels. The lug holes are deep in the case. Can’t tell if it’s unpolished as claimed?

Asking price is 16k.

Anything off about this watch? Thoughts appreciated.

[Dan S]

The case looks nice. The lume on the dial isn't so attractive in the photo, but probably it won't be so noticeable to the naked eye.

[springer]

It is not unusual for the later 5513 dials to have miscolored markers. I have seen it before on other examples. I've discussed these unusual colored markers found on the late glossy 5513 dials and was told by a couple other knowledgeable members here on TRF that they could also be found on some other vintage models from the same era.

As a side note...Several years ago I sold a late 1980s 5513 glossy with the same type of mismatched colored markers and a "well known" seller mistakenly told the buyer the dial was relumed even though it wasn't.

[springer]

The case looks like it just came out of a Rolex vault. The seller is mistaken and, for me, it is refinished.

The price would be substantially higher for a case in "mint" condition as found on this 5513.

[TuRo]

I'm not saying it is, but it has some of the hallmarks of a WG relumed dial...Why? As in the process a circular stick is put in the plot HR markers, the lume dropped down the stick and when the stick is removed it leaves a more whitey circle behind with a tiny pin-prick remaining.

[RFC]

For consideration of Springer and Paul, here’s another take of the lume of a different 1988 glossy dial 5513 sold by another dealer. The orange lume in this one is not as deep but it does have that white spot in the middle that Paul alluded to. Wonder if some of the late 5513’s share similar aging characteristics that would cause the dials to patina naturally? I appreciate the wealth of knowledge in this forum.

[Filipão]

Not comparable, OP's first 5513 depicted has whittier marks (that contrast more with the cream) and smudges. Smudges are imho the worst indicator plots were messed about.

[goheel]

In my opinion when it comes to vintage watch, the dial is more important than the case, so this watch would not be worth $16k to me.

[springer]

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, these discolored tritium dial markers can be found on some vintage examples from the 1980s into the 1990s.

Examples of these dials depicted below are:
a) two 5513 dials
b) two 16750 dials
c) one GMT II "Fat Lady" dial.

Although it would be nice to see or examine the OP's dial on this 5513 in person, it does appear to me to have the same attributes as the dials depicted below which are discolored and not relumed.

The second Submariner 5513 dial photo was sent to me a while back from a TRF member living in Florida. The other dials are ones that I have come across through the years of collecting.

[springer]

Originally Posted by RFC

For consideration of Springer and Paul, here’s another take of the lume of a different 1988 glossy dial 5513 sold by another dealer. The orange lume in this one is not as deep but it does have that white spot in the middle that Paul alluded to. Wonder if some of the late 5513’s share similar aging characteristics that would cause the dials to patina naturally? I appreciate the wealth of knowledge in this forum.

The dial lume appears genuine. See further in examples in my last post.

[RFC]

Springer, thank you for sharing all those pics of examples. It's impressive to have that database. I can see your point about the orange fading patina with white spots in those being original. But it's sort of mind bending to me admittedly a novice, but two of the GMT Masters you posted look almost identical to the 5513 I originally posted. Can you clarify if both examples I posted were or not relumed?

[hutch300]

I have a 1989 L serial 5513 that has some of this going on. I have researched it extensively and also had it posted about on the vintage rolex forum. All signs point to exactly what Springer shared. Rolex did things differently in the old days. Depends what you want out of the watch but 16k is a heathy price in this market. I'd look to work that down a bit.

[indianmachine]

Another one here has a very similar effect on the dial lume.

https://vintageworn.com/product/role...mint-full-set/

[indianmachine]

JP - what factors contribute to your opinion of the case being refinished vs. unpolished? Not disputing, but I just want to learn.

[springer]

Originally Posted by RFC

Springer, thank you for sharing all those pics of examples. It's impressive to have that database. I can see your point about the orange fading patina with white spots in those being original. But it's sort of mind bending to me admittedly a novice, but two of the GMT Masters you posted look almost identical to the 5513 I originally posted. Can you clarify if both examples I posted were or not relumed?

It does not look relumed to me. But, that case has been to the experts and refinished. Nothing wrong with being refinished, but the seller is misinformed or misrepresenting the watch calling it unpolished.

[springer]

Originally Posted by indianmachine

JP - what factors contribute to your opinion of the case being refinished vs. unpolished? Not disputing, but I just want to learn.

The case looks new! Doesn't look like any 30-year-old case that has been worn for decades. These refinished cases pop up for sale quite regularly these days with the "unpolished" caveat.

[indianmachine]

Originally Posted by springer

The case looks new! Doesn't look like any 30-year-old case that has been worn for decades. These refinished cases pop up for sale quite regularly these days with the "unpolished" caveat.

Very unfortunate

[Mk2rick]

Thank you for your sharing Springer! You are a blessing to this forum and to this vintage rolex community!

[RFC]

I would not purchase any Rolex vintage w/o first consulting with this Forum. With Springer’s expert input and others, it turns out that this 5513 with a near perfect case must have been refinished though the dial may not have been relumed. With market averages for 5513’s hovering around 14k w/o full set and trending down according to “market watch”, the asking price of 16k is high. Finding a great example of a 5513 or 1675 still proves elusive to me. :(

[hutch300]

There are lot of great examples at affordable prices. How/where are you searching?

[TuRo]

5513 WG loose watch in UK about £9k and 1675 about £11kso shouldn't be a problem at $16k

[Thuilln]

Originally Posted by springer

The case looks new! Doesn't look like any 30-year-old case that has been worn for decades. These refinished cases pop up for sale quite regularly these days with the "unpolished" caveat.

Maybe they mean that the refinished case hasn’t been polished yet!

[springer]

Originally Posted by pauldavidthorpe

5513 WG loose watch in UK about £9k and 1675 about £11kso shouldn't be a problem at $16k

I haven't seen a nice glossy 5513 for $9,000 in many, many years. Seems to me that a nice watch, not a set, starts around $12,000 or more depending on condition.

[karleone]

The case is extremely sharp and so is the tooth on the bezel. For me It’s unpolished but gotta look at more pictures to judge. The difference in tones on the dial would bother me but would be nice to see it under a natural light.

[karleone]

The case is extremely sharp and so is the tooth on the bezel. For me It’s unpolished but gotta look at more pictures to judge. The difference in tones on the dial would bother me but would be nice to see it under a natural light.

[RFC]

Originally Posted by hutch300

There are lot of great examples at affordable prices. How/where are you searching?

That’s great. Who are those trusted sellers? I haven’t seen from a trusted seller in the last two years a sharp case polished original matte dial 5513 w/o full set for less than 15k. Glossy later models, not service dials, around 12-14k. Where should I be looking?

[b.wayne]

Horrible looking watch

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by RFC

That’s great. Who are those trusted sellers? I haven’t seen from a trusted seller in the last two years a sharp case polished original matte dial 5513 w/o full set for less than 15k. Glossy later models, not service dials, around 12-14k. Where should I be looking?

Tropicalwatch.com (Jacek), has an 84 glossy WGS listed, but not a full set. To me, the seller and then the watch is more important than the set.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by RFC

That’s great. Who are those trusted sellers? I haven’t seen from a trusted seller in the last two years a sharp case polished original matte dial 5513 w/o full set for less than 15k. Glossy later models, not service dials, around 12-14k. Where should I be looking?

Most people posting regularly on the forum already have watches they are happy with, and aren't interested in buying watches at premium prices, so they will generally mention "wholesale" prices (auctions, collector-to-collector, etc.), which requires patience and knowledge on the buyer's part. They are not giving you dealer prices. And I don't think you should expect collectors to give away their hard-won hunting places and strategies to a stranger, and certainly not on an open searchable forum.

If by "trusted seller", you are referring to one of a handful of often-recommended dealers and quasi-dealers, then obviously you should not expect to get a bargain. If you want a good watch quickly, and you want the security of buying from an established seller, then ignore the prices being mentioned in this thread and just accept the fact that you will pay a premium price. There's nothing wrong with that.

If you are willing to put in the effort required to find good watches at better prices, then you need to be patient, develop your knowledge and your network, and learn how to hunt. If you only look at prices posted in the most prominent internet places, then you are looking at the same (mostly crappy and overpriced) listings that everyone else has already decided not to buy.

[springer]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Tropicalwatch.com (Jacek), has an 84 glossy WGS listed, but not a full set. To me, the seller and then the watch is more important than the set.

The 1984 Submariner 5513 you mentioned is an interesting watch, but for me, it is not a poor example at the listed price and misreprented in the listing..

The insert is later and the dial has some type of damage and is not in "excellent condition" as described in the ad.

The insert was also called "excellent" even though it is not original.