The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Rolex & Tudor Watch Topics > Rolex WatchTech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 9 November 2018, 05:48 PM   #31
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Freshly Serviced 14060...low amplitude?

And this is NY or Dallas RSC or this was a RAD with an in house or outsource watchmaker. Very strange.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 November 2018, 06:29 AM   #32
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
This was serviced at the Dallas RSC. I spoke with the RSC and they asked me to take it into a local AD that has a Rolex trained tech to have it timed on the AD's timer free of charge so I'm going to do that this weekend. Like everyone else here, I'm curious to see what the printout says.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 November 2018, 06:30 AM   #33
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Yes me too!


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 November 2018, 09:30 AM   #34
nboyer
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Real Name: Norm
Location: Virginia, USA
Watch: 2005 DateJust
Posts: 103
It's not the timing (regulation) that's of concern, it's the low amplitude. This would suggest that it was not properly serviced, no amount of regulation will increase the amplitude to a significant degree. Cheers. -Norm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 116710er View Post
This was serviced at the Dallas RSC. I spoke with the RSC and they asked me to take it into a local AD that has a Rolex trained tech to have it timed on the AD's timer free of charge so I'm going to do that this weekend. Like everyone else here, I'm curious to see what the printout says.
nboyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 November 2018, 12:08 PM   #35
handsfull
"TRF" Member
 
handsfull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Real Name: J
Location: The great Midwest
Watch: youlookinat?
Posts: 2,369
Doesn't surprise me. I've seen incredible amounts of incompetence originating from RSC. Unless you 'know' someone at RSC your chances of getting something done right are low.

Send it back, but escalate your issue with a supervisor beforehand.
handsfull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 November 2018, 03:51 AM   #36
nboyer
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Real Name: Norm
Location: Virginia, USA
Watch: 2005 DateJust
Posts: 103
I may have misunderstood your original comments. As I re-read, yes, checking the performance on a timegrapher by an AD is a good idea. My misunderstanding was confusing what you said for regulating. Sorry 'bout that. Cheers. -Norm


Quote:
Originally Posted by 116710er View Post
This was serviced at the Dallas RSC. I spoke with the RSC and they asked me to take it into a local AD that has a Rolex trained tech to have it timed on the AD's timer free of charge so I'm going to do that this weekend. Like everyone else here, I'm curious to see what the printout says.
nboyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 November 2018, 03:44 PM   #37
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
OK, so I finally took it to my local AD and here are the results from a Witschi Chronoscope X1. I took out the Crown Right reading as the Witschi didn't give that readout.

-- HALF WIND READOUT --
DU: +4.0 / 236 / 0.0
DD: +3.3 / 247 / 0.0
CU: +4.9 / 202 / 0.3
CD: +7.3 / 209 / 0.0
CL: +8.8 / 200 / 0.4

-- FULL WIND READOUT --
DU: +5.4 / 216 / 0.1
DD: +4.1 / 227 / 0.0
CU: +2.6 / 185 / 0.3
CD: +9.2 / 196 / 0.0
CL: +7.1 / 186 / 0.0

So the watchmaker at this AD pointed out that it was very odd that the full wind readout gave a LOWER amplitude reading. So dunno what's happening inside but it's obviously not kosher.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 November 2018, 04:24 PM   #38
SearChart
TechXpert
 
SearChart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 23,444
Very odd indeed and unacceptable after a service.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GB-man View Post
Rolex uses rare elves to polish the platinum. They have a union deal and make like $90 per hour and get time and half on weekends.
SearChart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 05:15 AM   #39
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Yikes, so it's confirmed.
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 05:15 AM   #40
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Where on we with Witschi vs Timegrapher comparison?
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 07:35 AM   #41
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
Well to me, it seems like the Witschi essentially verified what the Timegrapher was getting. Accuracy acceptable, beat error good, amplitude way low. The important take away is that I would not have been able to know that RSC did an absolute shiet job w/o the affordable timegrapher.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 11:38 AM   #42
Valenciawatchrepair
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Ellijay, GA
Posts: 1,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by 116710er View Post
Well to me, it seems like the Witschi essentially verified what the Timegrapher was getting. Accuracy acceptable, beat error good, amplitude way low. The important take away is that I would not have been able to know that RSC did an absolute shiet job w/o the affordable timegrapher.
What troubleshooting has the watchmaker done besides putting it on the Witschi? Any conclusions yet?
Valenciawatchrepair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 11:50 AM   #43
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Well. If amplitude is higher at full wind then generally something either isn't perfectly round and/or perfectly flat. Could a bad barrel bushing, could be a stud (post), really many possible areas. Under fully pressure of a full wind, it can cause a part tilt. The barrel can rub on the bridge or the setting wheel can tilt ect.

Not that odd to see higher amplitude on half wind. It's an symptom.
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 05:22 PM   #44
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
The watchmaker at the AD didn't do anything else. I had RSC tell me which local AD had a timer so that I could confirm what my timegrapher was telling me (local AD was closer than RSC). Now I'll be heading back down to RSC so that they can unf*ck their shoddy work.

I also discovered a spec of something on the seconds hand that wasn't there before. Just shoddy work by RSC all around.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16 November 2018, 07:45 PM   #45
keepitsimple
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: uk
Watch: Junghans Meister
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by 116710er View Post
Well to me, it seems like the Witschi essentially verified what the Timegrapher was getting. Accuracy acceptable, beat error good, amplitude way low. The important take away is that I would not have been able to know that RSC did an absolute shiet job w/o the affordable timegrapher.
Agree absolutely. If you're going to pay the costs required to service watches, then getting yout own Timegrapher for a fraction of that price to provide some check on the result is money very well spent. They may not be professional calibrated devices with aged crystals etc. but they aren't going to be orders of magnitude out - yours demonstrates that.

Out of interest, I've checked mine in the past by doing the full - 2 days at a time COSC timing checks (as close as I can and excluding the temperature one) and comparing against the machine's readings. Given that a 2 minute per position on a timing machine is only ever a "moment in time" check at a particular state of wind, and the fact that I have to eyeball the 2 day results (against time.com) they are still pretty darn close.

You have to wonder what proportion of watches go back to customers with unacceptable results that are never known about. In the case of yours, anyone unable to check it out would probably see the "on the wrist" performance and conclude a proper job had been done. The poor amplitude would be hidden.

I don't know whether Rolex service standards include issuing the timing results. I'm fairly sure that Omega standards do, but my limited experience of using their approved service agents is that they don't all do so. My non-authorised repairer of choice always does.
keepitsimple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18 November 2018, 12:37 PM   #46
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepitsimple View Post
Agree absolutely. If you're going to pay the costs required to service watches, then getting yout own Timegrapher for a fraction of that price to provide some check on the result is money very well spent. They may not be professional calibrated devices with aged crystals etc. but they aren't going to be orders of magnitude out - yours demonstrates that.

Out of interest, I've checked mine in the past by doing the full - 2 days at a time COSC timing checks (as close as I can and excluding the temperature one) and comparing against the machine's readings. Given that a 2 minute per position on a timing machine is only ever a "moment in time" check at a particular state of wind, and the fact that I have to eyeball the 2 day results (against time.com) they are still pretty darn close.

You have to wonder what proportion of watches go back to customers with unacceptable results that are never known about. In the case of yours, anyone unable to check it out would probably see the "on the wrist" performance and conclude a proper job had been done. The poor amplitude would be hidden.

I don't know whether Rolex service standards include issuing the timing results. I'm fairly sure that Omega standards do, but my limited experience of using their approved service agents is that they don't all do so. My non-authorised repairer of choice always does.
Rolex did not include a timing result with my service. I'm going to ask them for one once I get the 14060 back.

And you're absolutely right, w/o a timegrapher, people who get a service will never know if the watch was serviced correctly and I bet there's quite a few RSC sub-par jobs out there.

I also have a feeling that my watch was actually serviced at their Lititz, PA location which if I remember correctly, is where their school is. I'm wondering if they let a student service the watch instead of a certified CW21.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 November 2018, 06:16 PM   #47
R.G.Bramlett, CW21
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Denver, Colorado
Watch: Rolex Datejust
Posts: 30
The RWSC is never going to provide timing results when they return a watch from service, so we can probably stop hoping for that. That may be because they assume (incorrectly) that their customers won't know what the numbers mean. But my feeling is that they don't want folks reading the numbers and assuming that they mean more than they do, or that they're somehow "locked in" until the next service or something.

I can't help but notice, 116710'er, that you don't say anything about how the watch is actually performing on your wrist, or how long the watch's rundown time is. I'd say that's rather more important than anything the timing machine may be telling you. The 3035's don't always have blazingly high amplitude even when freshly overhauled, but still have great performance on the wrist and the expected 50 hours of power reserve.

All of that said, I would love to know how the RWSC customer service folks would respond to a customer calling to say something along the lines of "well, the watch seems to be running ok and all, but my timing machine says it has low amplitude!!" How would they handle that?
R.G.Bramlett, CW21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 November 2018, 06:28 PM   #48
R.G.Bramlett, CW21
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Denver, Colorado
Watch: Rolex Datejust
Posts: 30
I'm not convinced that the poor amplitude would be "hidden" very long. If the amplitude was that bad, you wouldn't have very good power reserve--definitely not the 50 hours or so that you would expect from a properly serviced 3035. Having a timing machine can definitely help you to see problems faster, but I do think 116710er's issues would have revealed themselves sooner rather than later regardless.

Rolex has never included timing results with serviced watches, perhaps because they assume (incorrectly) that folks wouldn't know what the numbers mean...but maybe because they don't want people to think that the watch is somehow "locked into" those numbers for the next 5-7 years. or something.

it's easy to see where your watch was serviced--simply have a glance at the document labeled "retail summary" and it will have the address of the service center, be it Dallas or Lititz. In Rolex's defense, I can tell you that, although the Service Center and school in Lititz are in the same building, they are kept quite separate. The chances that a student got within sniffing distance of your watch are zero.

regardless, these timing results are a bummer.
R.G.Bramlett, CW21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 November 2018, 06:36 PM   #49
R.G.Bramlett, CW21
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Denver, Colorado
Watch: Rolex Datejust
Posts: 30
Ha! i have to laugh at my own newbie bumbling. I wrote a response to this thread based on the first page of the thread (not knowing there was a second page) and then lost it somehow, then wrote a response to the second page! so i don't know which of my posts will see the light of day.

*sigh* Still mastering this fancy-pants "computer" thingamajig....
R.G.Bramlett, CW21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 November 2018, 10:32 PM   #50
cop414
TRF Moderator & 2024 Patron
 
cop414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Real Name: Tim
Location: Pennsylvania
Watch: 14060M
Posts: 71,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.G.Bramlett, CW21 View Post
Ha! i have to laugh at my own newbie bumbling. I wrote a response to this thread based on the first page of the thread (not knowing there was a second page) and then lost it somehow, then wrote a response to the second page! so i don't know which of my posts will see the light of day.

*sigh* Still mastering this fancy-pants "computer" thingamajig....
__________________

Rolex Submariner 14060M
Omega Seamaster 2254.50
DOXA Professional 1200T

Card carrying member of TRF's Global Association of Retro-Grouch-Curmudgeons
TRF's "After Dark" Bar & NightClub Patron
P Club Member #17
2 FA ENABLED
cop414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 November 2018, 05:28 PM   #51
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
Here's the update. Local RSC verified the findings of the watch being well under spec. Confirmed that Lititz did the service but they're not sure where it went sideways. I suppose something could have happened during shipping but who knows. They are going to have it re-serviced at Lititz again and my local RSC is going to run it on their timer when it comes back before they pass it off to me to confirm that it's all good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.G.Bramlett, CW21 View Post
I can't help but notice, 116710'er, that you don't say anything about how the watch is actually performing on your wrist, or how long the watch's rundown time is. I'd say that's rather more important than anything the timing machine may be telling you. The 3035's don't always have blazingly high amplitude even when freshly overhauled, but still have great performance on the wrist and the expected 50 hours of power reserve.
I didn't do a rundown test nor a on-the-wrist timing test. To be honest, after the timegrapher reading, I didn't think that was relevant because it was clear that something wasn't right. How that manifested wasn't really a concern as I wanted it serviced correctly first. Once I get it back and confirm that it's running properly, I will definitely do both tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.G.Bramlett, CW21 View Post
it's easy to see where your watch was serviced--simply have a glance at the document labeled "retail summary" and it will have the address of the service center, be it Dallas or Lititz.
I only received a printed paid invoice. Rolex literally gives you no information beyond the bare bone basics.


Since we have some real techs here, let me ask you guys a question. So I had this watch evaluated by independent watch service center (before sending it to RSC) who said the third wheel and seconds hand pinion needed to be replaced. If these parts were near EOL or already failing to some degree, would this cause the low amplitude problem?
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 November 2018, 02:47 PM   #52
R.G.Bramlett, CW21
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Denver, Colorado
Watch: Rolex Datejust
Posts: 30
Well, i've lost the plot here, i guess.

the 14060 should have a 3030 movement in it. pretty sure about that.

assuming it does...the 3030 doesn't have a seconds hand pinion like the older rolex movements do--it has a seconds wheel upon which the seconds hand is mounted. and anyway, how would a watchmaker eyeballing the movement during a cursory examination conclude that the seconds hand pinion and third wheel need to be replaced? unless there was some very obvious (and rare, i might add) damage to the outside of the wheel. Most of the time if i'm replacing a train wheel it's because of damage to the pivot, which of course wouldn't be obvious unless you did a lot of disassembly during your "evaluation." and a sweep seconds pinion is rarely replaced, unless it has some rust on it. again, that would not be visible unless this guy did some serious disassembly.

long story short, i'm not sure what to think about what the other watchmaker guy told you.
R.G.Bramlett, CW21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 November 2018, 03:58 PM   #53
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Yes bad wheels can cause low amplitude.

It's fine ethically to communicate what the issue could be. A bad wheel can cause amplitude to fall after a full wind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 116710er View Post
Here's the update. Local RSC verified the findings of the watch being well under spec. Confirmed that Lititz did the service but they're not sure where it went sideways. I suppose something could have happened during shipping but who knows. They are going to have it re-serviced at Lititz again and my local RSC is going to run it on their timer when it comes back before they pass it off to me to confirm that it's all good.


I didn't do a rundown test nor a on-the-wrist timing test. To be honest, after the timegrapher reading, I didn't think that was relevant because it was clear that something wasn't right. How that manifested wasn't really a concern as I wanted it serviced correctly first. Once I get it back and confirm that it's running properly, I will definitely do both tests.

I only received a printed paid invoice. Rolex literally gives you no information beyond the bare bone basics.


Since we have some real techs here, let me ask you guys a question. So I had this watch evaluated by independent watch service center (before sending it to RSC) who said the third wheel and seconds hand pinion needed to be replaced. If these parts were near EOL or already failing to some degree, would this cause the low amplitude problem?
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 November 2018, 05:05 PM   #54
SearChart
TechXpert
 
SearChart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 23,444
So why would they let a school service your watch?

My watchmaking school was provided movements from ETA and Richmont to work on so that is what I got, we never touched a customer's watch.
Only when doing the first internship in Amsterdam is when I started working on customers watches.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GB-man View Post
Rolex uses rare elves to polish the platinum. They have a union deal and make like $90 per hour and get time and half on weekends.
SearChart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 November 2018, 05:52 PM   #55
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
Bas- The Lititz location also has a service center in addition to the school. Apparently, the way they do the service there is assembly line style. So multiple people work on the watches. That's what the RSC rep told me anyways. Dunno what really goes on there.


Micheal- Thanks. I'm wondering if they didn't catch that the third wheel was in need of replacement.


R.G.B.- I think they did do a full breakdown. They had the watch for a couple weeks do a service cost evaluation. The cost ended up being a little higher than RSC (due to the parts required) so I decided to take it to RSC instead as their service includes the cost of small parts and you get a RSC service warranty card. I figured for a little less money, why not get an "official" RSC service? I wasn't expecting RSC to do such a craptastic job.

I looked up the independent shop's invoice and here's what parts they said it needed: Mainspring, Automatic Axle, 3rd Wheel and Sweep Second Pinion.

My suspicion is RSC didn't replace parts that were needed to be replaced. I think the independent shop was a lot more meticulous in their evaluation than RSC was. RSC probably just replaced the mainspring and gaskets, cleaned and lubed it and sent it back thinking the end user would be none the wiser which is probably why they don't give a itemized list of parts that are replaced. I sent it to RSC thinking their watchmakers would be rather liberal with parts replacements but apparently, that's not the case.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 November 2018, 08:46 PM   #56
037
2024 Pledge Member
 
037's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 6,171
I believe all RSCs in the US are assembly line style. Those who are working on the movement aren't the same who polish the case or run tests or whatever. And, I don't believe students at Lititz ever touch customer watches.

It's very possible that someone overlooked replacing some of the parts. Any RSC could have done the same.

It's interesting that the independent called for a new mainspring though. I assume that included a new barrel?
037 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 November 2018, 06:25 AM   #57
nboyer
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Real Name: Norm
Location: Virginia, USA
Watch: 2005 DateJust
Posts: 103
Could someone enlighten me as to how to tell if a seconds pinion would need to be replaced? What wear would you look for? I can understand the third wheel if it got bent somehow. But, again, what are the typical signs of wear would you look for? Cheers. -Norm
nboyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 November 2018, 08:19 AM   #58
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Seconds wheel and pinion are one and the same on 3035.

Normal stuff, check pivot, pinion, teeth, flatness, signs of wear that will affect operation. Jewel vs pivot, jewel wins.
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 November 2018, 05:18 PM   #59
116710er
"TRF" Member
 
116710er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: 'murica
Watch: yer six.
Posts: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by 037 View Post
I believe all RSCs in the US are assembly line style. Those who are working on the movement aren't the same who polish the case or run tests or whatever. And, I don't believe students at Lititz ever touch customer watches.
Ah, I actually expected that level of assembly line but the RSC rep made it sound as if the movement service itself was done by multiple people. Like one person disassembles, another one does the cleaning, then another one does the parts evaluation, then someone else assembles, etc. Maybe I extrapolated a bit too much. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 037 View Post
It's very possible that someone overlooked replacing some of the parts. Any RSC could have done the same.
Well this is where I mistakenly thought that an RSC would be a bit more meticulous and a bit more liberal with replacing small parts. I mean why not? They probably have bins full of various parts...it's not like they need to order it and it's at their manufacturing cost which assume is pretty low vs. what a parts account holder gets it for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 037 View Post
It's interesting that the independent called for a new mainspring though. I assume that included a new barrel?
The watch had a unknown last date of service and it had been sitting for year before I received it so I'm not sure what was happening inside. Barrel wasn't mentioned in the quote, just a mainspring.
116710er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25 November 2018, 06:57 AM   #60
nboyer
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Real Name: Norm
Location: Virginia, USA
Watch: 2005 DateJust
Posts: 103
Thanks Mike. -Norm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS View Post
Seconds wheel and pinion are one and the same on 3035.

Normal stuff, check pivot, pinion, teeth, flatness, signs of wear that will affect operation. Jewel vs pivot, jewel wins.
nboyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Takuya Watches

Bobs Watches

Asset Appeal

My Watch LLC

OCWatches

DavidSW Watches

Coronet


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.