List of questions to ask before you buy vintage watches(esp for newbies)

[dddrees]

Any chance this thread could be a sticky?

[cruvon]

Hi guys, just added in updates with a clarification note in red about polished/never polished watches


************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************
LIST OF TERMS TO LEARN ABOUT
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

Hi guys, just thought would list some questions I found especially useful to learn about and ask when buying a vintage watch with inputs from you wonderful guys here, hopefully helps some newbie collectors like myself get the watch they looking for. Is esp for those seeking originality and collector grade pieces or those willing to compromise on some parts so that we can become informed buyers rather than end up finding we purchased an unoriginal watch in good faith "assuming" it was all original. Important in cases where not enough information was provided or because the seller had a "Ask and I'll tell" policy rather than an upfront one. Offcourse again, please ask the knowledgeable guys here and send them pictures before you buy a watch. Also sometimes, if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is ,so do conduct your own due diligence before buying.

Note that the best attributes in the list are more idealistic but should be almost always found in original NOS, close to NOS or mint watches with NOS/mint condition Box and papers, which is rare to find but not impossible and is only for the most discerning of buyers amongst us willing to pay a premium and a long wait. Offcourse there are compromises to be made if is anything short of NOS, such is life:), and is best a newbie knows what compromises we can live with when we purchase vintages short of an idealistic scenario and make an educated purchase, hence the list:)

Please help me fill in the missing bits.


General question to ask

Watch is original and has no/any replacements including service replacements? Include detailed pictures.

Individual part questions to learn about/ask

Case:
Is it Polished/never polished/unpolished/over polished/NOS (since these definitions can mean different things to different people)/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Rusty * Note: While never polished/NOS watches do exist, they are extremely rare to find and expect to pay a premium for them. A reasonable compromise is finding one which is very slightly polished which has excellent chamfers, edges,etc. The important question to learn about/ask is if the watch has been over polished. Also beware of claims that a watch for sale has never been polished when infact it has been, so ask for multiple opinions if you insist on buying a never polished or NOS watch at a premium.

Caseback:
Caseback photo/Some have a timestamp like quarter/year

Lugs:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ Both lugs same sized/ not overpolished

Bracelet:
Is it period correct/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Polished/Refurbished/Bracelet number and date codes

Hands:/
Are they original to the watch/replacement hands/service replacements/relumed/ tritium matches the plots on the dial/ tritium doesn't match the plots on the dial/Cracking tritium

Dial:
Is it original to the watch/ a replacement/service replacement/refinished/relumed/tritium matches the one on the hands/ tritium doesn't match the hands/ % perfect (eg 100% perfect dial)//Cracking tritium

Insert:
Is it original to the watch (Thick font)/ a replacement/service replacement(Thin font)/ Scratched/Chipped

Pearl Dot:
Original/Original replacement/matching to lume on hands and plots or not/service replacement

Movement: (doesn't impact collectability much unless a different movement is used)
Original/Service replacement/a different movement


Crown:
Original/Service replacement

Crystal:
Original/Original replacement/service replacement/Badly scratched

Degree and type of patina desired:
There is a 0-6 patina type, please see the different types of patina from link in sticky here http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

Box and Papers:
Original to the watch/Period correct but not original to the watch/none/Chronometer certificate (punched/double punched/written/typed)

Serial number:
Serial number of the watch matches the time period the seller is advertised. (Note that this can have a variance of 1-2 years because might not be exact)/Are serial/ ref readable without a loupe

Service:
A recent service/RSC service/no service

Returns & Buyer Protection:
Period of time the buyer has to return the watch if something is amiss/ Will the seller stand by the watch after that time to safeguard his reputation since in most cases the return period is usually about 3-7 days and in some cases none. But a buyer discovers a watch is unoriginal too late as we have seen many times when new guys buy vintages in good faith and post pictures here, so "Buy the Seller"/ No questions asked returns Policy/Buy back

Additional Buyer Info Threads

1) Orchi's List of TOP 10 Priorities for newbies when buying a vintage Rolex
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117073

2) Refer to Jeds pictorial writeup of the correct paperwork for some of the vintages in this thread (Page 4)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=4

3) Refer to Marcello Pisani's paperwork pictures/comments on the 1675's (Page 3)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=3

3) Orchi describing things to watch and know on 5512's and 5513's (Page 2)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190309&page=2

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

[cruvon]

A slight numbering correction and added "caseback engravings" to the Case section and "A macro blowup picture of the dial which usually reveals any dial imperfections" to the Dial section

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************
LIST OF TERMS TO LEARN ABOUT
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

Hi guys, just thought would list some questions I found especially useful to learn about and ask when buying a vintage watch with inputs from you wonderful guys here, hopefully helps some newbie collectors like myself get the watch they looking for. Is esp for those seeking originality and collector grade pieces or those willing to compromise on some parts so that we can become informed buyers rather than end up finding we purchased an unoriginal watch in good faith "assuming" it was all original. Important in cases where not enough information was provided or because the seller had a "Ask and I'll tell" policy rather than an upfront one. Offcourse again, please ask the knowledgeable guys here and send them pictures before you buy a watch. Also sometimes, if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is ,so do conduct your own due diligence before buying.

Note that the best attributes in the list are more idealistic but should be almost always found in original NOS, close to NOS or mint watches with NOS/mint condition Box and papers, which is rare to find but not impossible and is only for the most discerning of buyers amongst us willing to pay a premium and a long wait. Offcourse there are compromises to be made if is anything short of NOS, such is life:), and is best a newbie knows what compromises we can live with when we purchase vintages short of an idealistic scenario and make an educated purchase, hence the list:)

Please help me fill in the missing bits.


General question to ask

Watch is original and has no/any replacements including service replacements? Include detailed pictures.

Individual part questions to learn about/ask

Case:
Is it Polished/never polished/unpolished/over polished/NOS (since these definitions can mean different things to different people)/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Rusty * Note: While never polished/NOS watches do exist, they are extremely rare to find and expect to pay a premium for them. A reasonable compromise is finding one which is very slightly polished which has excellent chamfers, edges,etc. The important question to learn about/ask is if the watch has been over polished. Also beware of claims that a watch for sale has never been polished when infact it has been, so ask for multiple opinions if you insist on buying a never polished or NOS watch at a premium.

Caseback:
Caseback photo/Some have a timestamp like quarter and year/ any caseback engravings

Lugs:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ Both lugs same sized/ not overpolished

Bracelet:
Is it period correct/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Polished/Refurbished/Bracelet number and date codes

Hands:
Are they original to the watch/replacement hands/service replacements/relumed/ tritium matches the plots on the dial/ tritium doesn't match the plots on the dial/Cracking tritium

Dial:
Is it original to the watch/ a replacement/service replacement/refinished/relumed/tritium matches the one on the hands/ tritium doesn't match the hands/ % perfect (eg 100% perfect dial)/Cracking tritium/ A macro blowup picture of the dial which usually reveals any dial imperfections

Insert:
Is it original to the watch (Thick font)/ a replacement/service replacement(Thin font)/ Scratched/Chipped

Pearl Dot:
Original/Original replacement/matching to lume on hands and plots or not/service replacement

Movement: (doesn't impact collectability much unless a different movement is used)
Original/Service replacement/a different movement


Crown:
Original/Service replacement

Crystal:
Original/Original replacement/service replacement/Badly scratched

Degree and type of patina desired:
There is a 0-6 patina type, please see the different types of patina from link in sticky here http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

Box and Papers:
Original to the watch/Period correct but not original to the watch/none/Chronometer certificate (punched/double punched/written/typed)

Serial number:
Serial number of the watch matches the time period the seller has advertised. (Note that this can have a variance of 1-2 years because of varying serial tables and because Rolex themselves do not share this info)/Are serial and reference numbers readable without a loupe

Service:
A recent service/RSC service/no service

Returns & Buyer Protection:
Period of time the buyer has to return the watch if something is amiss/ Will the seller stand by the watch after that time to safeguard his reputation since in most cases the return period is usually about 3-7 days and in some cases none. But a buyer discovers a watch is unoriginal too late as we have seen many times when new guys buy vintages in good faith and post pictures here, so "Buy the Seller"/ No questions asked returns Policy/Buy back

Additional Buyer Info Threads

1) Orchi's List of TOP 10 Priorities for newbies when buying a vintage Rolex
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117073

2) Refer to Jeds pictorial writeup of the correct paperwork for some of the vintages in this thread (Page 4)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=4

3) Refer to Marcello Pisani's paperwork pictures/comments on the 1675's (Page 3)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=3

4) Orchi describing things to watch and know on 5512's and 5513's (Page 2)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190309&page=2

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************[/QUOTE]

[cruvon]

Hi, just added this as step 5 in Additional Buyer Info Threads and hoping that incident has a happy ending!

"A thread with great learning on how to detect fake red sub dials, is scary how close fakers have got to trying replicate the original but thankfully the experts here on TRF can still call those dials out http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=236486

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************
LIST OF TERMS TO LEARN ABOUT
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

Hi guys, just thought would list some questions I found especially useful to learn about and ask when buying a vintage watch with inputs from you wonderful guys here, hopefully helps some newbie collectors like myself get the watch they looking for. Is esp for those seeking originality and collector grade pieces or those willing to compromise on some parts so that we can become informed buyers rather than end up finding we purchased an unoriginal watch in good faith "assuming" it was all original. Important in cases where not enough information was provided or because the seller had a "Ask and I'll tell" policy rather than an upfront one. Offcourse again, please ask the knowledgeable guys here and send them pictures before you buy a watch. Also sometimes, if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is ,so do conduct your own due diligence before buying.

Note that the best attributes in the list are more idealistic but should be almost always found in original NOS, close to NOS or mint watches with NOS/mint condition Box and papers, which is rare to find but not impossible and is only for the most discerning of buyers amongst us willing to pay a premium and a long wait. Offcourse there are compromises to be made if is anything short of NOS, such is life:), and is best a newbie knows what compromises we can live with when we purchase vintages short of an idealistic scenario and make an educated purchase, hence the list:)

Please help me fill in the missing bits.


General question to ask

Watch is original and has no/any replacements including service replacements? Include detailed pictures.

Individual part questions to learn about/ask

Case:
Is it Polished/never polished/unpolished/over polished/NOS (since these definitions can mean different things to different people)/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Rusty * Note: While never polished/NOS watches do exist, they are extremely rare to find and expect to pay a premium for them. A reasonable compromise is finding one which is very slightly polished which has excellent chamfers, edges,etc. The important question to learn about/ask is if the watch has been over polished. Also beware of claims that a watch for sale has never been polished when infact it has been, so ask for multiple opinions if you insist on buying a never polished or NOS watch at a premium.

Caseback:
Caseback photo/Some have a timestamp like quarter and year/ any caseback engravings

Lugs:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ Both lugs same sized/ not overpolished

Bracelet:
Is it period correct/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Polished/Refurbished/Bracelet number and date codes

Hands:
Are they original to the watch/replacement hands/service replacements/relumed/ tritium matches the plots on the dial/ tritium doesn't match the plots on the dial/Cracking tritium

Dial:
Is it original to the watch/ a replacement/service replacement/refinished/relumed/tritium matches the one on the hands/ tritium doesn't match the hands/ % perfect (eg 100% perfect dial)/Cracking tritium/ A macro blowup picture of the dial which usually reveals any dial imperfections

Insert:
Is it original to the watch (Thick font)/ a replacement/service replacement(Thin font)/ Scratched/Chipped

Pearl Dot:
Original/Original replacement/matching to lume on hands and plots or not/service replacement

Movement: (doesn't impact collectability much unless a different movement is used)
Original/Service replacement/a different movement


Crown:
Original/Service replacement

Crystal:
Original/Original replacement/service replacement/Badly scratched

Degree and type of patina desired:
There is a 0-6 patina type, please see the different types of patina from link in sticky here http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

Box and Papers:
Original to the watch/Period correct but not original to the watch/none/Chronometer certificate (punched/double punched/written/typed)

Serial number:
Serial number of the watch matches the time period the seller has advertised. (Note that this can have a variance of 1-2 years because of varying serial tables and because Rolex themselves do not share this info)/Are serial and reference numbers readable without a loupe

Service:
A recent service/RSC service/no service

Returns & Buyer Protection:
Period of time the buyer has to return the watch if something is amiss/ Will the seller stand by the watch after that time to safeguard his reputation since in most cases the return period is usually about 3-7 days and in some cases none. But a buyer discovers a watch is unoriginal too late as we have seen many times when vintages are bought in good faith and post pictures here, so ensure that you "Buy the Seller"/ No questions asked returns Policy/Buy back" so that you have recourse.

Additional Buyer Info Threads

1) Orchi's List of TOP 10 Priorities for newbies when buying a vintage Rolex
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117073

2) Refer to Jeds pictorial writeup of the correct paperwork for some of the vintages in this thread (Page 4)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=4

3) Refer to Marcello Pisani's paperwork pictures/comments on the 1675's (Page 3)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=3

4) Orchi describing things to watch and know on 5512's and 5513's (Page 2)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190309&page=2

5) A thread with great learning on how to detect fake red sub dials, is scary how close fakers have got to trying replicate the original but thankfully the experts here on TRF can still call those dials out http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=236486

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

[cruvon]

Bump for anymore terms we need to add to this list?

[cruvon]

Hi, just added some Case related info to the Case section and added in a Crowngaurds section, enjoy!


************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************
LIST OF TERMS TO LEARN ABOUT
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

Hi guys, just thought would list some questions I found especially useful to learn about and ask when buying a vintage watch with inputs from you wonderful guys here, hopefully helps some newbie collectors like myself get the watch they looking for. Is esp for those seeking originality and collector grade pieces or those willing to compromise on some parts so that we can become informed buyers rather than end up finding we purchased an unoriginal watch in good faith "assuming" it was all original. Important in cases where not enough information was provided or because the seller had a "Ask and I'll tell" policy rather than an upfront one. Offcourse again, please ask the knowledgeable guys here and send them pictures before you buy a watch. Also sometimes, if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is ,so do conduct your own due diligence before buying.

Note that the best attributes in the list are more idealistic but should be almost always found in original NOS, close to NOS or mint watches with NOS/mint condition Box and papers, which is rare to find but not impossible and is only for the most discerning of buyers amongst us willing to pay a premium and a long wait. Offcourse there are compromises to be made if is anything short of NOS, such is life:), and is best a newbie knows what compromises we can live with when we purchase vintages short of an idealistic scenario and make an educated purchase, hence the list:)

Please help me fill in the missing bits.


General question to ask

Watch is original and has no/any replacements including service replacements? Include detailed pictures.

Individual part questions to learn about/ask

Case:
Is it Polished/never polished/unpolished/over polished/NOS (since these definitions can mean different things to different people)/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Rusty * Note: While never polished/NOS watches do exist, they are extremely rare to find and expect to pay a premium for them. A reasonable compromise is finding one which is very slightly polished which has excellent chamfers, edges,etc. The important question to learn about/ask is if the watch has been over polished. Also beware of claims that a watch for sale has never been polished when infact it has been, so ask for multiple opinions if you insist on buying a never polished or NOS watch at a premium.


Note:A valuable question to ask about previously polished watches is "Does it have a "thick" case/lugs that's not refinished and are the lugs even?. Regarding laser refinishing, http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=208240, I wouldn't expect any sellers on a vintage enthusiast site like here to sell watches with this done without declaring it(am assuming an experienced seller should know the difference)!

Offcourse if the definition of refinished is a professional polishing to put in a bevelled edge/sides/chamfers and that's what's done on a watch, esp like the highly desireable Bexley edge on a fat case that's a different story and is acceptable if mentioned. But if that leads to a case going unappetisingly thin because it was done on a previously highly polished case, than the case shouldn't be called mint or excellent, it's just another ruined case. __________________

Caseback:
Caseback photo/Some have a timestamp like quarter and year/ any caseback engravings

Lugs:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ All lugs same size and thickness/ not overpolished

Bracelet:
Is it period correct/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Polished/Refurbished/Bracelet number and date codes

Hands:
Are they original to the watch/replacement hands/service replacements/relumed/ tritium matches the plots on the dial/ tritium doesn't match the plots on the dial/Cracking tritium

Dial:
Is it original to the watch/ a replacement/service replacement/refinished/relumed/tritium matches the one on the hands/ tritium doesn't match the hands/ % perfect (eg 100% perfect dial)/Cracking tritium/ A macro blowup picture of the dial which usually reveals any dial imperfections

Insert:
Is it original to the watch (Thick font)/ a replacement/service replacement(Thin font)/ Scratched/Chipped

Pearl Dot:
Original/Original replacement/matching to lume on hands and plots or not/service replacement

Movement: (doesn't impact collectability much unless a different movement is used)
Original/Service replacement/a different movement


Crown:
Original/Service replacement

Crownguards:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ Both cowngaurds same size and thickness/ not overpolished


Crystal:
Original/Original replacement/service replacement/Badly scratched

Degree and type of patina desired:
There is a 0-6 patina type, please see the different types of patina from link in sticky here http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

Box and Papers:
Original to the watch/Period correct but not original to the watch/none/Chronometer certificate (punched/double punched/written/typed)

Serial number:
Serial number of the watch matches the time period the seller has advertised. (Note that this can have a variance of 1-2 years because of varying serial tables and because Rolex themselves do not share this info)/Are serial and reference numbers readable without a loupe

Service:
A recent service/RSC service/no service

Returns & Buyer Protection:
Period of time the buyer has to return the watch if something is amiss/ Will the seller stand by the watch after that time to safeguard his reputation since in most cases the return period is usually about 3-7 days and in some cases none. But a buyer discovers a watch is unoriginal too late as we have seen many times when vintages are bought in good faith and post pictures here, so ensure that you "Buy the Seller"/ No questions asked returns Policy/Buy back" so that you have recourse.

Additional Buyer Info Threads

1) Orchi's List of TOP 10 Priorities for newbies when buying a vintage Rolex
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117073

2) Refer to Jeds pictorial writeup of the correct paperwork for some of the vintages in this thread (Page 4)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=4

3) Refer to Marcello Pisani's paperwork pictures/comments on the 1675's (Page 3)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=3

4) Orchi describing things to watch and know on 5512's and 5513's (Page 2)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190309&page=2

5) A thread with great learning on how to detect fake red sub dials, is scary how close fakers have got to trying replicate the original but thankfully the experts here on TRF can still call those dials out http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=236486

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************[/QUOTE]

[caryyee]

Excellent thread this, it needs to be pinned once more or less complete! Well done, thank you cruvon, I'm soon going to foray into vintage, it's good to know what questions to ask!

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by caryyee

Excellent thread this, it needs to be pinned once more or less complete! Well done, thank you cruvon, I'm soon going to foray into vintage, it's good to know what questions to ask!

Thanks mate, looking forward to see your first vintage:)

[cruvon]

Hi, just added a very informative writeup by John (springer) here, about vintage watch Boxes and Papers to help with judging the authenticity/originality of complete sets, thanks John.

PS: This "Questions to ask before you buy vintages" thread is referenced in the "List of Vintage watch dealers" above for easy access.

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************
LIST OF TERMS TO LEARN ABOUT
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************

Hi guys, just thought would list some questions I found especially useful to learn about and ask when buying a vintage watch with inputs from you wonderful guys here, hopefully helps some newbie collectors like myself get the watch they looking for. Is esp for those seeking originality and collector grade pieces or those willing to compromise on some parts so that we can become informed buyers rather than end up finding we purchased an unoriginal watch in good faith "assuming" it was all original. Important in cases where not enough information was provided or because the seller had a "Ask and I'll tell" policy rather than an upfront one. Offcourse again, please ask the knowledgeable guys here and send them pictures before you buy a watch. Also sometimes, if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is ,so do conduct your own due diligence before buying.

Note that the best attributes in the list are more idealistic but should be almost always found in original NOS, close to NOS or mint watches with NOS/mint condition Box and papers, which is rare to find but not impossible and is only for the most discerning of buyers amongst us willing to pay a premium and a long wait. Offcourse there are compromises to be made if is anything short of NOS, such is life:), and is best a newbie knows what compromises we can live with when we purchase vintages short of an idealistic scenario and make an educated purchase, hence the list:)

Please help me fill in the missing bits.


General question to ask

Watch is original and has no/any replacements including service replacements? Include detailed pictures.

Individual part questions to learn about/ask

Case:
Is it Polished/never polished/unpolished/over polished/NOS (since these definitions can mean different things to different people)/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Rusty * Note: While never polished/NOS watches do exist, they are extremely rare to find and expect to pay a premium for them. A reasonable compromise is finding one which is very slightly polished which has excellent chamfers, edges,etc. The important question to learn about/ask is if the watch has been over polished. Also beware of claims that a watch for sale has never been polished when infact it has been, so ask for multiple opinions if you insist on buying a never polished or NOS watch at a premium.


Note:A valuable question to ask about previously polished watches is "Does it have a "thick" case/lugs that's not refinished and are the lugs even?. Regarding laser refinishing, http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=208240, I wouldn't expect any sellers on a vintage enthusiast site like here to sell watches with this done without declaring it(am assuming an experienced seller should know the difference)!

Offcourse if the definition of refinished is a professional polishing to put in a bevelled edge/sides/chamfers and that's what's done on a watch, esp like the highly desireable Bexley edge on a fat case that's a different story and is acceptable if mentioned. But if that leads to a case going unappetisingly thin because it was done on a previously highly polished case, than the case shouldn't be called mint or excellent, it's just another ruined case. __________________

Caseback:
Caseback photo/Some have a timestamp like quarter and year/ any caseback engravings

Lugs:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ All lugs same size and thickness/ not overpolished

Bracelet:
Is it period correct/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Polished/Refurbished/Bracelet number and date codes

Hands:
Are they original to the watch/replacement hands/service replacements/relumed/ tritium matches the plots on the dial/ tritium doesn't match the plots on the dial/Cracking tritium

Dial:
Is it original to the watch/ a replacement/service replacement/refinished/relumed/tritium matches the one on the hands/ tritium doesn't match the hands/ % perfect (eg 100% perfect dial)/Cracking tritium/ A macro blowup picture of the dial which usually reveals any dial imperfections

Insert:
Is it original to the watch (Thick font)/ a replacement/service replacement(Thin font)/ Scratched/Chipped

Pearl Dot:
Original/Original replacement/matching to lume on hands and plots or not/service replacement

Movement: (doesn't impact collectability much unless a different movement is used)
Original/Service replacement/a different movement


Crown:
Original/Service replacement

Crownguards:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ Both cowngaurds same size and thickness/ not overpolished


Crystal:
Original/Original replacement/service replacement/Badly scratched

Degree and type of patina desired:
There is a 0-6 patina type, please see the different types of patina from link in sticky here http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

Box and Papers:
Original to the watch/Period correct but not original to the watch/none/Chronometer certificate (punched/double punched/written/typed)
Also see this thread by John(springer) here, http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=260214

Serial number:
Serial number of the watch matches the time period the seller has advertised. (Note that this can have a variance of 1-2 years because of varying serial tables and because Rolex themselves do not share this info)/Are serial and reference numbers readable without a loupe

Service:
A recent service/RSC service/no service

Returns & Buyer Protection:
Period of time the buyer has to return the watch if something is amiss/ Will the seller stand by the watch after that time to safeguard his reputation since in most cases the return period is usually about 3-7 days and in some cases none. But a buyer discovers a watch is unoriginal too late as we have seen many times when vintages are bought in good faith and post pictures here, so ensure that you "Buy the Seller"/ No questions asked returns Policy/Buy back" so that you have recourse.

Additional Buyer Info Threads

1) Orchi's List of TOP 10 Priorities for newbies when buying a vintage Rolex
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117073

2) Refer to Jeds pictorial writeup of the correct paperwork for some of the vintages in this thread (Page 4)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=4

3) Refer to Marcello Pisani's paperwork pictures/comments on the 1675's (Page 3)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=3

4) Orchi describing things to watch and know on 5512's and 5513's (Page 2)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190309&page=2

5) A thread with great learning on how to detect fake red sub dials, is scary how close fakers have got to trying replicate the original but thankfully the experts here on TRF can still call those dials out http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=236486

6) A very informative writeup by John(springer) here, about vintage watch Boxes and Papers to help in judging the authenticity/originality of complete sets http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=260214

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************[/QUOTE]

[springer]

Originally Posted by greekbum

I am not sure about refference correct as I do not know? Lets assume I am an original owner of a 1970 red submariner and every 10 years I send it back to Rolex for service. I am not a watch guru just a guy that bought a sub in 1970 and sent it back to them for service and decide to sell it to you as my original 1 owner sub.You purchase it and latter after a tear down examination discover the case back is a service 1 the crown and insert and even dial and hands are too.You come back to me and say hey the watch you sold me wasn't original and I say your crazy I bought it new and only rolex has ever touched it. You tell me about the dial and hands etc and I say what are you talking about....take it to rolex and ask them if its original or not here is all the receipts. Who is right and who is wrong ?This is why the BUYER must Do Due Diligence prior to looking to buy and buying.Those that dont spend time in this area are always at risk of the unknown (either unintentional or intentional). I too have made mistakes rushing etc in the past. I learn something new every day now

Gotta agree with Greekbum's comments in his two posts. The buyer needs to do some homework too! I had a guy buying a GMT from me a while back and I could tell he was asking me questions that he didn't have a clue about. He asked me about the color of my date wheel, the stlyle of font found on the number three from the date wheel and he also asked me if the Rolex font on the dial had a "long E.". Finally I asked him why he was asking me these questions and he said he had read somewhere on a forum about variations in date wheels and dial fonts. I asked him what mine should be and he didn't have a clue. We chuckled at his response and I told him what was correct and that mine did have the correct dial and date wheel. I suggested that in the future, he might want to know the answers to his questions before they are asked. It is a basic premise that some lawyers forget sometimes - but that is another story.

[cruvon]

Just moving this post to the end of the thread enjoy!

This "Questions to ask before you buy vintages" thread is referenced in the "List of Vintage watch dealers" above for easy access.
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LIST OF TERMS TO LEARN ABOUT
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Hi guys, just thought would list some questions I found especially useful to learn about and ask when buying a vintage watch with inputs from you wonderful guys here, hopefully helps some newbie collectors like myself get the watch they looking for. Is esp for those seeking originality and collector grade pieces or those willing to compromise on some parts so that we can become informed buyers rather than end up finding we purchased an unoriginal watch in good faith "assuming" it was all original. Important in cases where not enough information was provided or because the seller had a "Ask and I'll tell" policy rather than an upfront one. Offcourse again, please ask the knowledgeable guys here and send them pictures before you buy a watch. Also sometimes, if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is ,so do conduct your own due diligence before buying.

Note that the best attributes in the list are more idealistic but should be almost always found in original NOS, close to NOS or mint watches with NOS/mint condition Box and papers, which is rare to find but not impossible and is only for the most discerning of buyers amongst us willing to pay a premium and a long wait. Offcourse there are compromises to be made if is anything short of NOS, such is life:), and is best a newbie knows what compromises we can live with when we purchase vintages short of an idealistic scenario and make an educated purchase, hence the list:)

Please help me fill in the missing bits.


General question to ask

Watch is original and has no/any replacements including service replacements? Include detailed pictures.

Individual part questions to learn about/ask

Case:
Is it Polished/never polished/unpolished/over polished/NOS (since these definitions can mean different things to different people)/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Rusty * Note: While never polished/NOS watches do exist, they are extremely rare to find and expect to pay a premium for them. A reasonable compromise is finding one which is very slightly polished which has excellent chamfers, edges,etc. The important question to learn about/ask is if the watch has been over polished. Also beware of claims that a watch for sale has never been polished when infact it has been, so ask for multiple opinions if you insist on buying a never polished or NOS watch at a premium.


Note:A valuable question to ask about previously polished watches is "Does it have a "thick" case/lugs that's not refinished and are the lugs even?. Regarding laser refinishing, http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=208240, I wouldn't expect any sellers on a vintage enthusiast site like here to sell watches with this done without declaring it(am assuming an experienced seller should know the difference)!

Offcourse if the definition of refinished is a professional polishing to put in a bevelled edge/sides/chamfers and that's what's done on a watch, esp like the highly desireable Bexley edge on a fat case that's a different story and is acceptable if mentioned. But if that leads to a case going unappetisingly thin because it was done on a previously highly polished case, than the case shouldn't be called mint or excellent, it's just another ruined case. __________________

Caseback:
Caseback photo/Some have a timestamp like quarter and year/ any caseback engravings

Lugs:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ All lugs same size and thickness/ not overpolished

Bracelet:
Is it period correct/Original to the watch/Service replacement/Polished/Refurbished/Bracelet number and date codes

Hands:
Are they original to the watch/replacement hands/service replacements/relumed/ tritium matches the plots on the dial/ tritium doesn't match the plots on the dial/Cracking tritium

Dial:
Is it original to the watch/ a replacement/service replacement/refinished/relumed/tritium matches the one on the hands/ tritium doesn't match the hands/ % perfect (eg 100% perfect dial)/Cracking tritium/ A macro blowup picture of the dial which usually reveals any dial imperfections

Insert:
Is it original to the watch (Thick font)/ a replacement/service replacement(Thin font)/ Scratched/Chipped

Pearl Dot:
Original/Original replacement/matching to lume on hands and plots or not/service replacement

Movement: (doesn't impact collectability much unless a different movement is used)
Original/Service replacement/a different movement


Crown:
Original/Service replacement

Crownguards:
Thin/Thick/Polished/Never polished/ Both cowngaurds same size and thickness/ not overpolished


Crystal:
Original/Original replacement/service replacement/Badly scratched

Degree and type of patina desired:
There is a 0-6 patina type, please see the different types of patina from link in sticky here http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=145962

Box and Papers:
Original to the watch/Period correct but not original to the watch/none/Chronometer certificate (punched/double punched/written/typed)
Also see this thread by John(springer) here, http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=260214

Serial number:
Serial number of the watch matches the time period the seller has advertised. (Note that this can have a variance of 1-2 years because of varying serial tables and because Rolex themselves do not share this info)/Are serial and reference numbers readable without a loupe

Service:
A recent service/RSC service/no service

Returns & Buyer Protection:
Period of time the buyer has to return the watch if something is amiss/ Will the seller stand by the watch after that time to safeguard his reputation since in most cases the return period is usually about 3-7 days and in some cases none. But a buyer discovers a watch is unoriginal too late as we have seen many times when vintages are bought in good faith and post pictures here, so ensure that you "Buy the Seller"/ No questions asked returns Policy/Buy back" so that you have recourse.

Additional Buyer Info Threads

1) Orchi's List of TOP 10 Priorities for newbies when buying a vintage Rolex
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117073

2) Refer to Jeds pictorial writeup of the correct paperwork for some of the vintages in this thread (Page 4)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=4

3) Refer to Marcello Pisani's paperwork pictures/comments on the 1675's (Page 3)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190394&page=3

4) Orchi describing things to watch and know on 5512's and 5513's (Page 2)
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=190309&page=2

5) A thread with great learning on how to detect fake red sub dials, is scary how close fakers have got to trying replicate the original but thankfully the experts here on TRF can still call those dials out http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=236486

6) A very informative writeup by John(springer) here, about vintage watch Boxes and Papers to help in judging the authenticity/originality of complete sets http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=260214

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[cruvon]

Bumping this thread for any new forumers here!

[T5AUS]

If you dither too long you could miss out......an example with me was when I purchased my 1962 PCG gilt 5512. This rare bird was offered to me by it's original very active and vibrant 78 year old owner who had been given it as a wedding present by his wife back in the early 60's. She had passed away quite a few years prior and so he decided to now cash it in while he still had the time to enjoy the money since his kids were not interested in it as a watch, and were planing on selling it anyway.
He already had a couple of offers from specialist watch dealers and so had a price he wanted based on those offers. He had no idea what model it was or what the serial number was and had no papers or box, he just new it as his Sub which was given to him he thought around 1964, and which he had used for years when scuba diving.
Since I lived out of town and he didn't want visitors to his home we arranged to meet up at a cafe in a large shopping centre eqi distance between us that we both new. Of course, the whole story sounded a bit sus to say the least but when I finally did meet him I felt good about him, although a talker, he had depth and sincerity that appealed. We ordered coffee's and he finally dragged out an old calico bag from which he removed his rather rough and tired looking sub.
This happened about four years ago now and in those days I was quite new to vintage watch collecting but I had always wanted an early Sub so this seemed like a possibility. At the time, I never new what a gilt dial was, even less what PCG's were, to me it was just a rather sad looking old Rolex sub and to make things worse, I had no way of taking off the back or removing the bracelet to check movement and serial numbers. I guess I could have suggested taking it to a local jewellers for help but the best you can find in one of these suburban shopping centres is someone who changes quartz watch batteries and has probably never seen a genuine Rolex of this vintage let alone have the tools to open one. Even if we had managed to remove these, I still wouldn't have been any the wiser since I had no reference books to check numbers against.
So, what would you have done, knowing that the guy was going back into town that day to sell to a dealer if I didn't take it for his asking price. Well, of course, he had me by the b*lls, despite it's condition, it just looked too good to pass up on, so, I mortgaged the house as one does and the rest is history.
My point to this post is, don't get too bogged down in tech stuff, go with your gut feeling, in the end it makes life far more interesting. Of course, buying it from the original owner did make it a lot easier, I doubt if I would have been as keen had it been a third party selling it, I at least would have wanted to have seen numbers and the movement for sure. Of course, it worked out well in the end being older and a 5512 to boot and having PCG's as well as a gilt dial, so I felt a little less guilty about the huge lump of money I had to give him that day

PHOTO'S BELOW ARE..... top two as first seen on cafe table and bottom two after service and with a mate. My only regret when I had it serviced was changing the original crown for the triple lock crown, just too big IMO but not too big a deal to replace one day perhaps. The bezel of course could be better, but is original so not a problem for me, others would replace it I know. But it's the dial, that bloody amassing dial that makes it, show me a better one
SO, STOP DITHERING, YES BE A LITTLE CAUTIOUS, BUT DONT GET TOO BOGGED DOWN IN TRIVIA, GOOD LUCK

[springer]

The most important thing about asking a question is - know the answer to the question you ask! I couldn't tell you how many times I've been asked questions by guys who don't know the answer to the question they are asking me about. They spend a day here, or elsewhere once a month reading about vintage but don't comprehend or remember what they are reading. When they finally pull the trigger on a purchase, they start asking questions about dials, hands, date wheels, bracelets etc. and do not really know what is correct but instead rely on the seller to tell him what is correct. This is not a good practice when buying vintage because many sellers do not know what is correct.

Be careful out there.

[daveo5]

The most important thing, is you buy the seller, then the watch.


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[Bertroex]

Hi all,

Many thanks for the resources, the questions and the points raised. I came into possession of a 1966 GMT (originally for seemingly NY with a JB jubilee) and I am learning on a daily basis.

At this moment I experience a mix of excitement and .... feeling enthusiatically uninformed but, the journey is as important as the goal!

Take care,


Bert

[tekno]

Originally Posted by springer

The most important thing about asking a question is - know the answer to the question you ask! I couldn't tell you how many times I've been asked questions by guys who don't know the answer to the question they are asking me about. They spend a day here, or elsewhere once a month reading about vintage but don't comprehend or remember what they are reading. When they finally pull the trigger on a purchase, they start asking questions about dials, hands, date wheels, bracelets etc. and do not really know what is correct but instead rely on the seller to tell him what is correct. This is not a good practice when buying vintage because many sellers do not know what is correct.



Be careful out there.

I saw Jesse Websters site, his descriptions went way above many. As an example.

“Hands recently relumed to color match the dial, no glow”
“Case, fresh polished / chamfers added, or polished in the past”
“Dial, this thing here or there”

I know some guys may think Certain sellers sold out over time. I had some high profile guys tell me about the watches they were selling “no not that one, maybe not that, keep looking”

finding people you can trust
knowing what your at
Be clear with expectations


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[indianmachine]

Great idea to put together!

for all lume - Has anything been relumed or color corrected? Does lume glow under UV? How quickly does that fade? Is that period correct?

[Perku-t]

very dense info in this sticky, thany you very much for compiling this datats