YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Moderate to high level production for "classic" design trinity:
1) Patek
2) AP
3) Journe
4) Lange (Honorable mention)
5) VC (Honorable mention)

Top tier classical design trinity (if money is no object and finishing is king):
1) Dufour
2) Gruebel
3) Variety of independents (Roger Smith, Kari, Gronefeld etc.)

Top trinity of "special" material, "special design"
1) MB&F
2) Debethune
3) Urwerk

Debatable hype:
1) Richard Mille
2) Hublot
3) Ming

I think this is the best of the lot..

I’d be inclined to put Trinity Cat1 as Patek and then Trinity Cat2 as journe, ALS, Vacheron and AP as secondary within that but defo in that top group.

They are all awesome but AP is basically RO and offshores and nothing much else, journe is rather recently recognised (though loved in the shadows for years) and tiny in comparison. ALS excellent though I remember a mate working in Patek salon talking me out of one as they “lacked soul” .. I don’t think that but I can see it.. defo deserves to be in there.

Should we also a consider that given production numbers.. Dufour, roger smith, forsey etc are basically novelty brands, if the internet didn’t exist you’d never have heard never mind seen a pic of them.

Shouts for Moser, RM, czapek etc.. I’m not sure they’re serious for trinity material

Everyone remembers when panerai was hot (still lovely aesthetic), when breitling ruled the skies and Frank muller was flash.

Fashions evolve, style is eternal. How many of these brands mentioned were in the mix in 20 years ago, 10 years ago… and, if you were backing a few horses, who’d you bet on in 10 and 20 year’s time??


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[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

Hear hear


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[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Good points, though imho we need to give recognition to today's true independents. The old establishment is welcome to enjoy its long history decided upon by ??? long ago and celebrate each company's continued accomplishments.

I look forward to the Modern Holy Trinity of horology.

BTW, if this was cars there was probably a Holy Trinity in the 1960s, yet exotic car production and performance manufacturing has changed since then. New companies not in business way back when are now taking the forefront. Ferrari is great, still innovating, yet....

Hope this better clarifies things. So again, yes let's celebrate the old guard, yet also give recognition to those taking horology into Modern times.

Perhaps instead of modern trinity one would say Indy trinity or perhaps you mean Modern in the artistic sense.. so a “Contemporary (and independent) Trinity” would be more suited.

We’re already getting more niche, which takes away from the broad royalty of it.

I like your thinking though


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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

That is a good question.
.
.



Agreed, yet since we hear it so often, we now have to 'maintain' it's modern status. This is why it desperately needs updating. If not, we're mired in old habits no longer applicable... or worse still going backwards(!).





I love ya!!! I don't care what others say about you behind your back, but man I sooo love ya

They say many things.

[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by unknown

Tbh,
One brand is not yet mentioned and it’s probably the only one that really deserves it.

Parmigiani!!

Please do look at them and read their history. Look at the manufactures that belong under the parmigiani/Sandoz foundation umbrella and you will understand they are a top tier players
They make cases , movements, dials…. For the entire industry.
And I mean THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY
Do some research


Most of the others mentioned I simply can’t agree and I’ll try to explain why.

Dufour and smith … top notch but with a production of less then 10-15 per year they are just not acceptable to be put in a holy trinity group.
They should at least be available to thousands of collectors just like the PP/VC/AP brands do

So for the same reason I exclude MB&F, Urwerk and archer similar top brands. 150 or so per year is imo still unacceptable
Again, nothing wrong with these brands, I even wish I had one or more but they are just to tiny

Greubel… also a no go for that reason and on top of it… their price.
Sorry bit if you can’t offer a great watch between 20 and 50 k you’re imo not worthy

Richard mille…. Unbelievable people still buy that joke. The are not a watch brand but a marketing brand. They pretend to be the best and most exclusive.
But for some models the use Vaucher movements ( and BTW Vaucher is aboard of parmigiani)
At 1/5 th of their listprice it would be acceptable.
Again, great marketing but that’s about it.

Czapek and Moser?
Great and will buy them but definitely not enough high end. Good finishing but on par with for example JLC. So imo not good enough to be called “superior “
And therefore not good enough to replace patek , Vacheron or Audemars
Besides they also use movements from Vaucher and Aghenor.


Really, put some time in reading about parmigiani , it’s not the most recognised brand today but if you would know who they work for and what level of finishing they can deliver…. I bet you’ll agree

Or please start with this
Buy this book and read it, you’ll learn about hand finishing and real haute horlogerie.
It’s a must have book

https://watchprint.com/fr/techniques...-de-gamme.html


There is a reason why I made a post a week ago about the parmigiani ionica and there is a reason why I said it blows away Patek, Vacheron and Audemars

That was a good post


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by chunk2020

Fashions evolve, style is eternal. How many of these brands mentioned were in the mix in 20 years ago, 10 years ago… and, if you were backing a few horses, who’d you bet on in 10 and 20 year’s time??

Excellent question!

Originally Posted by chunk2020

Perhaps instead of modern trinity one would say Indy trinity or perhaps you mean Modern in the artistic sense.. so a “Contemporary (and independent) Trinity” would be more suited.

We’re already getting more niche, which takes away from the broad royalty of it.

I like your thinking though

So we really need a few categories, perhaps?

Originally Posted by GB-man

They say many things.

[kimodaz]

Lange
FP Journe
Czapek

[Yobrooks]

GRONEFELD
MOSER
FPJ

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[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Fair points. I will say that being popular shouldn't be a consideration, otherwise Rolex would sit atop. The general public follows trends and marketing, not true watchmaking prowess.

I also think AP hasn't done enough over the past 20 years to keep it seated in a Trinity. From technical achievements, they have been outclassed by Lange. They are also much too reliant on the RO line.

I agree popularity (demand) is not the only consideration but it has to be at least one of the determinants, otherwise these Big 3 will not be able to continue as a going concern today.

Moving on to the AP and Lange argument, I remember reading an article that the horological trinity was a concept coined by Swiss journalists in the 60s/70s. Lange ceased operations after WW2 and is German, which probably explained why it was not included then. Along the same vein, when AP was included in the trinity, it does not have the RO line yet, or RO was not really popular in the 70s after it came into existence in 1972. They were there presumably on merit with high complications and innovative (open-work) watches.

Fast forward to 2022, we could of course make a case of Lange over AP due to advancements made by Lange over the past 2-3 decades. AP proponents could also argue that Lange does not have a sport line until 2019, and is Lange self-sustainable without Richemont's support.

The Trinity concept is a subjective one which is why we see many determinants in this thread alone. Nothing is stopping us from buying the brands we love though. Cheers.

[westoque]

Everyone has different criteria in what makes up THEIR own holy trinity but for me its brand (history), mastery of craft, and availability (not too independent that they make super small numbers)

Which makes it STILL:

1. Patek
2. AP
3. VC

If we’re talking just innovation then many could say Richard Mille is doing some great things as of late.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I agree popularity (demand) is not the only consideration but it has to be at least one of the determinants, otherwise these Big 3 will not be able to continue as a going concern today.

Gentlemen, i feel popularity should not take a role or be considered, because if it did then the Apple Watch wins hands down.

If the Swiss are not careful, the Chinese will train a very small fraction of their people for a decade or two to make the world's best timepieces with the most ornate and decorated hand-crafted movements. Grand Seiko is only a small hint into what's possible.

Anywho....

-------------
-------------

Everyone....


So let's step back a second.

When was the Old School Holy Trinity decided upon?

What criteria determined the Old School Holy Trinity?

Who decided which brands made up the Old School Holy Trinity?

[Bloomberg]

I can’t understand why it required to be independent to be part of the modern trinity.
I also share the point of view on a minimum volume required to be eligible to this category.
For me, it is more coherent to exclude MB&F than FPJ.
My answer:
Fpj
Lange
Parmigiani

[Berto1]

Lange & Sohne
FP Journe
Greubel Forsey

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Bloomberg

I can’t understand why it required to be independent to be part of the modern trinity.

I feel it gives a nod to the original intent of the Old School Holy Trinity. When that was created long ago all brands were independent I believe.

I also share the point of view on a minimum volume required to be eligible to this category.

Totally agree! I've dealt with this within the luxury sound system market, so in my experience agree the company should produce some chosen minimum number of °°actual production°° pieces.

Of course I HIGHLY admire what those 'ineligible' very low production 'companies' can do. Josh's creations are a great example for vacuum tube audio enthusiasts www.electronluv.com

[shafran]

I think the holy trinity was originally also based on longevity of the brand. Many of the independents have not been around that long in comparison.
I think today the top 5 major lines that have been around in one form or another:
Patek
Lange
VC
Breguet
AP

The independents are just as well made, some decorated more beautifully, some with much more original ideas.
My favorites are
FPJ and Parmigiani.

I love Moser and others, but don't know if they are part of the top tier watches made.
Also, for the small independents I happen to be impressed by Christophe Claret, yet noone has mentioned him.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I agree popularity (demand) is not the only consideration but it has to be at least one of the determinants, otherwise these Big 3 will not be able to continue as a going concern today.

Moving on to the AP and Lange argument, I remember reading an article that the horological trinity was a concept coined by Swiss journalists in the 60s/70s. Lange ceased operations after WW2 and is German, which probably explained why it was not included then. Along the same vein, when AP was included in the trinity, it does not have the RO line yet, or RO was not really popular in the 70s after it came into existence in 1972. They were there presumably on merit with high complications and innovative (open-work) watches.

Fast forward to 2022, we could of course make a case of Lange over AP due to advancements made by Lange over the past 2-3 decades. AP proponents could also argue that Lange does not have a sport line until 2019, and is Lange self-sustainable without Richemont's support.

The Trinity concept is a subjective one which is why we see many determinants in this thread alone. Nothing is stopping us from buying the brands we love though. Cheers.

Respectfully disagree regarding popularity. Obviously a company needs to be viable to continue to operate and innovate; having a working business model does not necessarily make a company "popular".

Regarding AP. I'm not denying their history. I'm not questioning their inclusion in the original Trinity. The question from OP asked to update the Trinity to include companies that have had more recent contributions to horology. In this regard, AP has been surpassed imho.

As you say, this is subjective. We clearly have different criteria, evidenced by you thinking having a robust sport watch line should be a determining factor. My criteria only looks at how a company has recently moved forward horology through innovation. I don't care about popularity. I don't care about sport watches. I don't care about optics.

[kunlun]

I'm not a fan of AP, but just to make polite conversation, are we really so certain that AP hasn't been innovating?

The Super Sonnerie line is several years old now and still better than Patek's new repeater (PP's is still not water resistant, AP's is to 20m, which is get caught in a heavy rain-proof at the least).

Plus, there is the super duper thin QP.

And a not thin true Grand Complication, rattrapante/QP/Repeater.

Not to mention APRP is responsible for everything cool Richard Mille has ever done (and AP owns 25% of RM). APRP also has done quiet work for other brands who need complication work.

AP isn't shy about being able to service all their watches throughout their history of production. You know who can't do that? Patek. AP likes to point out that there's a non-working complicated pocketwatch in the PP museum that PP can't fix. They asked AP to fix it and AP was like "Sure, but we want 'Serviced by AP' under the card identifying the watch in the museum." Patek refused, so there it sits like a hockey puck.

The argument that AP is only RO and ROO is and always has been bogus, given the wealth of complications AP offers. Rolex only has an Oyster case line and some Cellinis (literally, the brand has technically two lines and that's it).

APs don't keep good time, maybe the new movements will fix that, but they certainly deserve to be a top haute horology big brand with a long history and reputation.

[SoylentGreenChi]

Originally Posted by kunlun

I'm not a fan of AP, but just to make polite conversation, are we really so certain that AP hasn't been innovating?

The Super Sonnerie line is several years old now and still better than Patek's new repeater (PP's is still not water resistant, AP's is to 20m, which is get caught in a heavy rain-proof at the least).

Plus, there is the super duper thin QP.

And a not thin true Grand Complication, rattrapante/QP/Repeater.

Not to mention APRP is responsible for everything cool Richard Mille has ever done (and AP owns 25% of RM). APRP also has done quiet work for other brands who need complication work.

AP isn't shy about being able to service all their watches throughout their history of production. You know who can't do that? Patek. AP likes to point out that there's a non-working complicated pocketwatch in the PP museum that PP can't fix. They asked AP to fix it and AP was like "Sure, but we want 'Serviced by AP' under the card identifying the watch in the museum." Patek refused, so there it sits like a hockey puck.

The argument that AP is only RO and ROO is and always has been bogus, given the wealth of complications AP offers. Rolex only has an Oyster case line and some Cellinis (literally, the brand has technically two lines and that's it).

APs don't keep good time, maybe the new movements will fix that, but they certainly deserve to be a top haute horology big brand with a long history and reputation.

Really appreciate this post. It makes sense and offers a perspective I do not often hear on the forums. Thank you.

[S``]

1.) Seiko
2.) Casio
3.) Timex

[Andad]

Originally Posted by unknown

Tbh,
One brand is not yet mentioned and it’s probably the only one that really deserves it.

Parmigiani!!

Please do look at them and read their history. Look at the manufactures that belong under the parmigiani/Sandoz foundation umbrella and you will understand they are a top tier players
They make cases , movements, dials…. For the entire industry.
And I mean THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY
Do some research


Most of the others mentioned I simply can’t agree and I’ll try to explain why.

Dufour and smith … top notch but with a production of less then 10-15 per year they are just not acceptable to be put in a holy trinity group.
They should at least be available to thousands of collectors just like the PP/VC/AP brands do

So for the same reason I exclude MB&F, Urwerk and archer similar top brands. 150 or so per year is imo still unacceptable
Again, nothing wrong with these brands, I even wish I had one or more but they are just to tiny

Greubel… also a no go for that reason and on top of it… their price.
Sorry bit if you can’t offer a great watch between 20 and 50 k you’re imo not worthy

Richard mille…. Unbelievable people still buy that joke. The are not a watch brand but a marketing brand. They pretend to be the best and most exclusive.
But for some models the use Vaucher movements ( and BTW Vaucher is aboard of parmigiani)
At 1/5 th of their listprice it would be acceptable.
Again, great marketing but that’s about it.

Czapek and Moser?
Great and will buy them but definitely not enough high end. Good finishing but on par with for example JLC. So imo not good enough to be called “superior “
And therefore not good enough to replace patek , Vacheron or Audemars
Besides they also use movements from Vaucher and Aghenor.


Really, put some time in reading about parmigiani , it’s not the most recognised brand today but if you would know who they work for and what level of finishing they can deliver…. I bet you’ll agree

Or please start with this
Buy this book and read it, you’ll learn about hand finishing and real haute horlogerie.
It’s a must have book

https://watchprint.com/fr/techniques...-de-gamme.html


There is a reason why I made a post a week ago about the parmigiani ionica and there is a reason why I said it blows away Patek, Vacheron and Audemars

Great post.

If it’s ok with you I will elevate you to pledge membership.

Just let me know if that’s ok?

Your post was far better than the original question.

I almost gave up reading the original post after the first four “Modern Holy Trinity” references.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Andad

Great post.

If it’s ok with you I will elevate you to pledge membership.

Just let me know if that’s ok?

Your post was far better than the original question.

I almost gave up reading the original post after the first four “Modern Holy Trinity” references.

That is very kind and an honor. But I don't think its a good idea :-)
Could be mistaken but you have to pay to be such a member, right ?
well tbh I never did and Im here already a LONG time :-)
I read and write on a few watch related websites and blogs and never paid for any of them. Or I should pay for none or all of them, don't want to make a difference.

Now getting it here without paying for it wouldn't be fair to people who did pay for it.

But thanks again for your intention :-)

[RobHK]

I wanted to say FPJ, but the volumes they produce are so tiny I'm not sure you can qualify when yearly production is less than one limited watch release of Grand Seiko.

I would go for a new trinity of watches that are attainable at reasonable prices. If the PP, AP and VC are out my new trinity is:

Rolex
Grand Seiko
Lange & Sohne

[yoast]

AP
PP
Rolex

[Thanos]

Omega
Grand Seiko
Glashutte Original

[jed11]

Originally Posted by S``

1.) Seiko
2.) Casio
3.) Timex

[ap1]

Bremont
Panerai
Apple

Ah, just saw S beat me to it

[MostlyCloudy]

why isnt the breguet marine talked about more?

[odeon]

- Patek: No word to talk more about it...
- Breguet of Swatch Group: We all have to pay tribute to the history, and email.
- ALS of Richemont: Enormous scrutinized efforts behind the case, and commitment to improve the whole system.

Let us elaborate more...

Why FP Journe is out of list? Because it could not reach the culminating point yet. It has adorable pieces and detailed innovations. But there must be a time to leap more.

Why AP is out? Because the company could not tell more than Genta's unique design. There have been lots of issues about movement... in-house movement.

Why Vacheron is excluded? Because the parent company would prefer cultivating the another child: ALS Hence, Vacheron is straddling.

Why Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilainen, Rexhep Rexhepi, Greubel Forsey and so on are out? Because we used to talk about the Holy Trinity, not about the Gods of watchmaking. They are much more tailored.

Why Rolex is not included? Because we pursue the art, instead of cart carrying hundred thousand pieces.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by odeon

Why Philippe Dufour, Kari Voutilainen, Rexhep Rexhepi, Greubel Forsey and so on are out? Because we used to talk about the Holy Trinity, not about the Gods of watchmaking. They are much more tailored.

Why Rolex is not included? Because we pursue the art, instead of cart carrying hundred thousand pieces.

It seems like we may need a few, very few (?three?), categories. This is something up to you enthusiasts. The other question scratching my mind is... voting on TRF could produce different results than WPS / elsewhere.

It's time i start 'picking the brains' of a few longtime enthusiasts.

Perhaps hand the idea over to Steve and mods here. Am 100% cool with TRF taking charge of the whittling down and polls until the final three are chosen.

[djnick]

If anyone wants to read that book that @unknown posted about finishing and details book written by AP its out of print and hard to find not to mention expensive but someone has scanned it and put it up and no excuse not to read now!

http://www.tenjou.net/dump/High-end%...decoration.zip