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Old 11 June 2021, 11:35 PM   #571
NYG1121
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Begs the question. What is a 100k watch? Is any watch a 100k watch? I think sometimes we get too bogged down into values when the whole thing is sort of crazy to begin with.
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Old 11 June 2021, 11:43 PM   #572
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Yes.

The 5711/1A is not a $110k watch. Sorry.

And I have two, and I love them. But I still wouldn't pay $110k for them.
You are saying the 5711/1A is no 110k watch. At the same time you are not selling which means you prefer to own your two 5711/1A over netting 110k for each (or maybe 80-90k if you sell to a dealer). Hence, it obviously is a 110k watch for you. Same old inconsistent story. Case closed, or did I miss something?
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Old 12 June 2021, 12:37 AM   #573
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You are saying the 5711/1A is no 110k watch. At the same time you are not selling which means you prefer to own your two 5711/1A over netting 110k for each (or maybe 80-90k if you sell to a dealer). Hence, it obviously is a 110k watch for you. Same old inconsistent story. Case closed, or did I miss something?
Well if he paid $25-30k then that is what he deemed it was worth to him. Regardless of what it could currently fetch, he couldn't replace it for the $25k he valued it at. I guess it all depends on whether you look at timepieces as fungible goods for exchange, or something to wear and enjoy.

My 38mm CS is selling for double to triple what I paid for it and is no longer in production. I wouldn't sell it though because I love the piece and wear it all the time. It was worth what I paid for it back then, but I wouldn't purchase at anywhere near the current asking prices.
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Old 12 June 2021, 01:00 AM   #574
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Begs the question. What is a 100k watch? Is any watch a 100k watch? I think sometimes we get too bogged down into values when the whole thing is sort of crazy to begin with.

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Old 12 June 2021, 01:42 AM   #575
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I totally agree with you, but my issue IS the demand side. The CB is a killer watch. I guess my issue is how hundreds of people, objectively, can want that more than a CO, at a higher price. When the CB is 25K, and the CO is 90K at retail, I can totally see why the CB would be much more popular. But once the CB goes above it, there is no rational explanation I can think of for the markets behavior other than Instagram FOMO stuff.

If people want to drop 110K for a CB, good on them. I think it's totally bonkers, but it appears that is where we are at.
Are you aware that the FPJ Elegante Titalyt 48mm going for $99,000? How’s that compare to the CB and most importantly the CO?
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Old 12 June 2021, 03:17 AM   #576
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I say this as a complete lover of the CB.....it is crazy to me that someone would consider paying over 6 figures for a CB when you can get a CO, a FAR superior watch (imo), for less. Ok, eye of the beholder and all of that, but over 100K for that watch is bonkers. It's good, but not that good. Instagram really is taking over...

Can you actually get a CO for CB? Maybe only in the last week if the CB spike is real and CO has not budged? Which is unlikely. I’d happily swap my CB into a CO if I’m wrong though.

And I never understand when people say something is not worth X if multiple people are willing to pay that amount. That is literally the definition of market value. Just because you yourself wouldn’t pay X doesn’t mean it’s not worth X...


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Old 12 June 2021, 03:39 AM   #577
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Well if he paid $25-30k then that is what he deemed it was worth to him. Regardless of what it could currently fetch, he couldn't replace it for the $25k he valued it at. I guess it all depends on whether you look at timepieces as fungible goods for exchange, or something to wear and enjoy.

My 38mm CS is selling for double to triple what I paid for it and is no longer in production. I wouldn't sell it though because I love the piece and wear it all the time. It was worth what I paid for it back then, but I wouldn't purchase at anywhere near the current asking prices.
I think what ts3 is saying is that if you aren't willing to sell the CB or 5711 or 15202 or whichever watch you own at the current, let's call it $80K (what you would actually net) then the watch has more utility to you than the $80K which is similar to being willing to pay $80K for the watch. A lot of people will argue that it's not the same but for supply/demand economists it is.
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Old 12 June 2021, 03:53 AM   #578
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Can you actually get a CO for CB? Maybe only in the last week if the CB spike is real and CO has not budged? Which is unlikely. I’d happily swap my CB into a CO if I’m wrong though.

And I never understand when people say something is not worth X if multiple people are willing to pay that amount. That is literally the definition of market value. Just because you yourself wouldn’t pay X doesn’t mean it’s not worth X...


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Agreed with this. Haven't seen the price on the CO in awhile (since they don't come on sale too often) but I am sure they're more expensive on the secondary market than the CB is. That said, I would also happily trade in my CB for the CO. Especially since the CB was at retail :)
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Old 12 June 2021, 04:03 AM   #579
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Can you actually get a CO for CB? Maybe only in the last week if the CB spike is real and CO has not budged? Which is unlikely. I’d happily swap my CB into a CO if I’m wrong though.

And I never understand when people say something is not worth X if multiple people are willing to pay that amount. That is literally the definition of market value. Just because you yourself wouldn’t pay X doesn’t mean it’s not worth X...


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Interesting scenario. In recent months I’ve asked myself the question if I’d be willing to trade my CB for a CO, with the likelihood that I could never get my hands on another CB. My answer continues to be “no.” As much as I really like the CO, I just love to wear my CB.

If you’ve been collecting watches for a while, one of those rare things that you learn to pay attention to is when you feel a certain unmistakable enjoyment every time you wear a certain watch. For me, the CB is that watch. I’ve experienced enough infatuations with other watches that I bought (or almost bought), only to fade away. I’m pretty certain that if I ever sold or traded my CB I would most likely never be able to get another one.

It’s fun to see the crazy market prices, but a part of me wishes this distraction would all go away so I can just enjoy my watch.
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Old 12 June 2021, 05:09 AM   #580
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Can you actually get a CO for CB? Maybe only in the last week if the CB spike is real and CO has not budged? Which is unlikely. I’d happily swap my CB into a CO if I’m wrong though.

And I never understand when people say something is not worth X if multiple people are willing to pay that amount. That is literally the definition of market value. Just because you yourself wouldn’t pay X doesn’t mean it’s not worth X...


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I haven't seen any COs for sale on the secondary recently, but I am sure they will be close to if not more than a CB.
You can still get a CO at retail from a boutique, but not a CB, so getting on the list for a CO and selling the CB would be an option.

That being said, unless I am in dire need of money, I will not sell my CB for the same reasons BigAppleBill mentioned above.
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Old 12 June 2021, 05:44 AM   #581
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I think what ts3 is saying is that if you aren't willing to sell the CB or 5711 or 15202 or whichever watch you own at the current, let's call it $80K (what you would actually net) then the watch has more utility to you than the $80K which is similar to being willing to pay $80K for the watch. A lot of people will argue that it's not the same but for supply/demand economists it is.
Exactly.

I have sympathy for all kinds of irrational behavior and I am sitting in a similar boat as GreenLantern in neither buying nor selling at current market prices. But I am not arguing that these watches are no 80k or 100k watches. At this point they are and everybody has to deal with it. Like it, hate it, or be indifferent.
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Old 12 June 2021, 08:39 AM   #582
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All Journes are scarce, but because of the demand for CB I don’t see prices coming down. How many CBs exist— 2k? Extremely small ##. I enjoy mine too much to let it go even at these prices. Would be extremely difficult to replace down the line.
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Old 12 June 2021, 01:00 PM   #583
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By Journe standards 2000 pieces is a huge number. Doesn’t matter for price with
demand as is but rare by Journe standards it is not even remotely.
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Old 12 June 2021, 01:13 PM   #584
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Sure...relative to other Journe models, 2000 is not a low number. But if we are talking compared to other brands, and with respect to demand, it is LOW.
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Old 12 June 2021, 02:11 PM   #585
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Doubtful there have been 2000 CBs produced. It was launched in December 2009, so really that's a 2010 start date. How many were produced in a year on average? Maybe 125? So that's 125 x 11 years = 1375. Let's even round up to 1500 total. That is still not many watches produced for such a time span.

Just to help bring that into perspective, currently on Chrono24 there are 409 listings for Patek 5711s.
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Old 12 June 2021, 11:17 PM   #586
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It has just occurred to me that the most active threads on the forums now are “is this watch worth zillions?”. Watch forums used to be used for people to ask questions on how well a movement is finished, any issue for a particular watch, etc.

Nowadays, it feels more like a penny stocks investment forum than a venue to share appreciation of the art and craft. Admittedly, I am also guilty of adding to the fuel here.

We should get back to posting pictures of our watches and discuss about the watches and not the worth of the watches. May be we need an Investment sub forum. ��
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Old 13 June 2021, 01:19 AM   #587
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It has just occurred to me that the most active threads on the forums now are “is this watch worth zillions?”. Watch forums used to be used for people to ask questions on how well a movement is finished, any issue for a particular watch, etc.

Nowadays, it feels more like a penny stocks investment forum than a venue to share appreciation of the art and craft. Admittedly, I am also guilty of adding to the fuel here.

We should get back to posting pictures of our watches and discuss about the watches and not the worth of the watches. May be we need an Investment sub forum. ��
I agree with your sentiment. I generally avoid these types of discussions, and there are other forums that do not allow talk of this nature that are an oasis of horological conversation. But this topic is intriguing and this is definitely the place for it, hence the title of the thread. That, and we’re 20 pages in.😂
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Old 13 June 2021, 01:21 AM   #588
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I agree with your sentiment. I generally avoid these types of discussions, and there are other forums that do not allow talk of this nature that are an oasis of horological conversation. But this topic is intriguing and this is definitely the place for it, hence the title of the thread. That, and we’re 20 pages in.

This is my last post on this topic
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Old 13 June 2021, 01:23 AM   #589
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This is my last post on this topic
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Old 13 June 2021, 03:59 AM   #590
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I don’t mind any value discussions because as a collector in this current crazy world where everything is going above retail we need to know what’s going on in the real market and what’s better place to have a light chat over..

Nonetheless I totally agree with adding some photos and make this discussion more about appreciating and remind ourself why the CB demand so much attention from all serious collectors around the world.. personally I own two (2) CB one from 2012 (darker blue strap) and another from 2019 (bright blue strap). The later one shown in these photos is unworn. The first one I bought with discount and the second one I bought at retail.

Now here’s the photos to remind us the exceptional beauty of the legendary CB..

IMG_9582.jpg

IMG_9584.jpg

Cheers!


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Old 13 June 2021, 10:21 AM   #591
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Despite all the talk of the CB not being much value, I think given the crazy current market and all the pumping done by WatchBox, the auction houses and Journe themselves, the prices make sense (which is insane to say). Honestly, if I were to pick one watch that should be worth 100k between the 15202, 5711 and CB, it would be the CB.
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Old 13 June 2021, 12:45 PM   #592
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If I were to pick up one watch that should be worth $100k between the 15202, the 5711, and the CB, it would be neither, because neither is a $100k watch to me.

I'd rather spend $100k on an FPJ QP or an FPJ CO. Or any number of Lange's (most of which are still reasonably priced on the secondary market right now, too).
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Old 13 June 2021, 12:45 PM   #593
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It has just occurred to me that the most active threads on the forums now are “is this watch worth zillions?”. Watch forums used to be used for people to ask questions on how well a movement is finished, any issue for a particular watch, etc.

Nowadays, it feels more like a penny stocks investment forum than a venue to share appreciation of the art and craft. Admittedly, I am also guilty of adding to the fuel here.

We should get back to posting pictures of our watches and discuss about the watches and not the worth of the watches. May be we need an Investment sub forum. ��


I miss those days.
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Old 13 June 2021, 04:29 PM   #594
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Love your originality
(not a fan of Mille and NEVER will be, sorry)
But the MB&F and definitely the Corum are 2 pieces you won't see often ....
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Old 13 June 2021, 05:05 PM   #595
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If I were to pick up one watch that should be worth $100k between the 15202, the 5711, and the CB, it would be neither, because neither is a $100k watch to me.

I'd rather spend $100k on an FPJ QP or an FPJ CO. Or any number of Lange's (most of which are still reasonably priced on the secondary market right now, too).

If someone said you’ve won their raffle and can choose between an FPJ CB or an 1815 chronograph, which would you choose?


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Old 13 June 2021, 06:40 PM   #596
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I don’t mind any value discussions because as a collector in this current crazy world

Nonetheless I totally agree with adding some photos and make this discussion more about appreciating and remind ourself why the CB demand so much attention from all serious collectors around the world.. personally I own two (2) CB one from 2012 (darker blue strap) and another from 2019 (bright blue strap).
Jennifer, great point.

What I find intriguing is that we have not found the ceiling yet on this piece. Us, Enthusiasts, get a feeling that everyone is aware of Journe. It is growing fast and the word is getting around quickly. That is true. More and more collectors are getting exposed to FPJ watches not to mention those collectors that are naturally outgrowing Patek, Rolex, AP etc as a natural progression. This is the part why I like this thread, it is not about just the cost/resale but the desire of the piece and what is making it desirable. Also, it was here that I was shock to realize that there might be less than 2000 made all these years (at this point)- much less perhaps. Heck, when I bought my AP Code1159 Purple (I knew, I know, be gentle with the jokes: I love the piece), the seller said they are “just”making 2000 of each color a year! I kept thinking, wow, that is so little. …And then you realize this about the CB.

It is hard not to fall into the hype especially when the CB is really just a fantastic piece, money aside. We all know the details: crazy metal Tantalum, beautiful movement in gold, and a chameleon that goes with ANY outfit! Plus, it keeps amazing time and so legible at 39mm.

Now the price, $24,900 is a steal knowing how hard it is to make. Real genuine value. At $110K, if I had a throwaway money, I’d probably pay it as I know I would not get it at any boutique, and if so, 12 year wait list. PPlleeease! Give me a break. Are there other watches that are amazing at that value or less? Of course. I have a 20 watch log list. But, it will not be the CB!

@Jennifer, curious. Why 2 CBs? Are they different somehow - slight difference in dial color? I hear that the hour hands could be creamier or whiter depending on the year but don’t really know.
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Old 13 June 2021, 06:54 PM   #597
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Also, it was here that I was shock to realize that there might be less than 2000 made all these years (at this point)- much less perhaps.
I got mine about two years ago and mine is in the low thousands so I would imagine there is significantly less than 2000 currently.
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Old 13 June 2021, 07:26 PM   #598
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Jennifer, great point.

What I find intriguing is that we have not found the ceiling yet on this piece. Us, Enthusiasts, get a feeling that everyone is aware of Journe. It is growing fast and the word is getting around quickly. That is true. More and more collectors are getting exposed to FPJ watches not to mention those collectors that are naturally outgrowing Patek, Rolex, AP etc as a natural progression. This is the part why I like this thread, it is not about just the cost/resale but the desire of the piece and what is making it desirable. Also, it was here that I was shock to realize that there might be less than 2000 made all these years (at this point)- much less perhaps. Heck, when I bought my AP Code1159 Purple (I knew, I know, be gentle with the jokes: I love the piece), the seller said they are “just”making 2000 of each color a year! I kept thinking, wow, that is so little. …And then you realize this about the CB.

It is hard not to fall into the hype especially when the CB is really just a fantastic piece, money aside. We all know the details: crazy metal Tantalum, beautiful movement in gold, and a chameleon that goes with ANY outfit! Plus, it keeps amazing time and so legible at 39mm.

Now the price, $24,900 is a steal knowing how hard it is to make. Real genuine value. At $110K, if I had a throwaway money, I’d probably pay it as I know I would not get it at any boutique, and if so, 12 year wait list. PPlleeease! Give me a break. Are there other watches that are amazing at that value or less? Of course. I have a 20 watch log list. But, it will not be the CB!

@Jennifer, curious. Why 2 CBs? Are they different somehow - slight difference in dial color? I hear that the hour hands could be creamier or whiter depending on the year but don’t really know.
At 24,900$, FPJ is still making a huge profit on the watch :D, don't be fooled :D.
As another member said, I would never spend 100k on a 5711, 15202 or CB EVER. A friend of mine owns a CB and finds it very delicate / not adequate for his lifestyle. He does own a Breitling, Rolex and some other watches for daily purposes but the CB, in a small collection, can't really be used as a "sporty" watch or an actual dress watch.
IMHO this watch has no identity, or an identity crisis.
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Old 13 June 2021, 08:34 PM   #599
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If someone said you’ve won their raffle and can choose between an FPJ CB or an 1815 chronograph, which would you choose?
If I was to treat it like I treat all my watches (i.e., I'm not in it to make a quick buck, and I'm not a flipper), then I would stay true to my word: the 1815 Chrono.

If I was a flipper, obviously I'd go with the CB, it goes for 2x the 1815 Chrono, and it's a raffle, so it's not like I'm betraying an AD relationship.
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Old 13 June 2021, 09:34 PM   #600
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If I was to treat it like I treat all my watches (i.e., I'm not in it to make a quick buck, and I'm not a flipper), then I would stay true to my word: the 1815 Chrono.

If I was a flipper, obviously I'd go with the CB, it goes for 2x the 1815 Chrono, and it's a raffle, so it's not like I'm betraying an AD relationship.
You are making lanteanflux's point for him; even though it's an obvious choice from an horological sense, it's not an easy one from an economic POV. One retails for twice the other, and one sells in the grey market for twice the other and it's not the same one.
One of the problems is that there are many buyers who place zero value on complications, in fact it can be a negative from the perspective of delicacy and service cost and, from a rarity perspective, three hand watches from Patek and Journe are it, particularly in non-precious metal.
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