More info regarding the Panerai disgrace...

[karmatp]

The notion that this becomes "collectible" is something only Paneristis would dream up.


Really, what about the famous "error dial" on the Rolex GMT's, this is not just a risti thing. That was complete BS also, I had a D serial with the stick font. Let's face it, anything rare or unusual gets hyped as collectible, especially from sellers.

Chris, I did not miss the point. I realised a long time ago that Luminors with ETA movements were way overpriced, now others are finally starting to think the same. I personally think all watches cost way to much these days for what they are, but hey, it's just a hobby.

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by psv

I'm not sure I agree with the derogatory term "internet hysteria". People do have the right to express their opinion in this case (no pun intended).

By the way, I used to own the 318. I bought it directly from the boutique. I moved it because I found it didn't keep the time very well and the power reserve appeared to be way less than stated. The notion that this becomes "collectible" is something only Paneristis would dream up. I can understand that a coin or stamp with a production fault becomes collectible or extra valuable, but those irregularities were not made man-made but rather manufacturing mistakes that somehow slipped through quality control. This is a corporate scam, Panerai behaving like a profit-center instead of a respectable watch-maker that cares out its customers and takes great pride in the products it produces.

Sure, hardcore believers will try to spin this into something positive; try to make lemonade out of these lemons; but as far as I am concerned - call it internet hysteria if you want - Panerai's brand and image has received a major black eye.

Agreed.

You know what's even worse? This behavior is set to drive increased revenue for Panerai. What are the reactions so far? I have seen quite a few, "I'll never buy anything that isn't in-house with display back ever again" comments. We all know that these are much more expensive models. The casual buyer will continue buying the chaff with blissful ignorance, while the multi-watch Risti will demand a solid product - and pay -even more- for it.

Guess what, if they had planned this it couldn't have a better outcome. They're driving people towards the higher end of their line. The Risti faithful have been clinging to the old ETA stuff. This might finally end the love affair.

[zeroshiki]

Originally Posted by psv

I'm not sure I agree with the derogatory term "internet hysteria". People do have the right to express their opinion in this case (no pun intended).

By the way, I used to own the 318. I bought it directly from the boutique. I moved it because I found it didn't keep the time very well and the power reserve appeared to be way less than stated. The notion that this becomes "collectible" is something only Paneristis would dream up. I can understand that a coin or stamp with a production fault becomes collectible or extra valuable, but those irregularities were not made man-made but rather manufacturing mistakes that somehow slipped through quality control. This is a corporate scam, Panerai behaving like a profit-center instead of a respectable watch-maker that cares out its customers and takes great pride in the products it produces.

Sure, hardcore believers will try to spin this into something positive; try to make lemonade out of these lemons; but as far as I am concerned - call it internet hysteria if you want - Panerai's brand and image has received a major black eye.

i agree with the poster above. major black eye. just after 339 caseback fiasco, where they said they created a new composite material, fusing aluminium and ceramic in some unobtainium technology process to create a brand new spanking tough material, in truth: aluminium case inside, coated by composite/ceramic. look how other 'composite' cased models are being delayed now.

and then the recently 318 movt fiasco, afaik, this watch was released back in 2008 no? what were panerai thinking, that they could get away with this? or are they just too arrogant to even care what's gonna happen if people find out what they put into the 318 case. i'm not sure panerai is even ashamed of themself after the 318 and 339. i wonder what's around the corner next.

those extremist die-hard panerai fans would say: go buy something else if you're not happy with panerai. well, yeah, that's exactly what i'm gonna do.. i'm pretty done with panerai anyways, it's not just because of these recent fiascos, it's from my own experience with panerai watches, it's my perceived value of panerai brand and their product, they don't reflect the value for the price they ask for, not anymore. especially in the QC and brand integrity category.

i still like panerai's design, the simplicity of the base dial luminors, none other models they have appeals to me, so i'm gonna keep a couple basic ones, and that's it. the last piece of panerai i'm gonna get is the 390, that is, if i ever get one from boutique. if not then i'm done and happy with what i have already anyways.

thanks to a friend who suggested to give it a look, i have shifted my attention to rolex, gave the sub c a try. it's a helluva watch, great value for the money. got the LV-C first, and then the LN. totally satisfied and very happy for what i paid for, proud to own both. it's that kind of satisfaction i never ever felt for any panerai watches i ever gotten. and definitely not gonna be my last rolex.

sure, i love how a panerai look on my wrist, but after every purchase, there were always some sort of reservations that detracts me from a level of total satisfaction. to name some reasons: poor QC, little (but unacceptable) defects, inconsistencies between same type/models. i don't even need a loupe to see all this.

i know, imperfections? it's normal. there's no such thing as a perfect panerai/watch. ok. that's true i learned, some little 'unless under the loupe' inconsistencies/defects are acceptable, especially if tens of thousands(or more) units of the same model are made each year(like sub C). but that's not the case with panerai. it's not like panerai make hundreds of thousands of watches per year, ie: 112, approx 2000 pcs per year. yet i've encountered unacceptable defects on 112s of the same production year.. M series, on 2 out of 3 bnib pieces, one has a deep scratch on the dial(and clearly painted over with black paint, showed this to the AD and they accepted the return), the other have considerably weak lume+not properly pressed minute hand on the cannon pin(i currently own this). this is just an example of one model. there are others models too which i won't even bring up.

having less production number per year, one should think panerai should have better QC. yet they don't. now with the recent 339/318 fiasco, it shows that they never cared or have any self-respect as a good watchmaker, they just want to sell watches(also proven by the funky 390 distribution system).

in summation, to each his/her own.., for those hardcore panerai fans, enjoy collecting more pieces from panerai. more power to you.

[Swede00]

Has Panerai commented on this issue? And I also think it is a disgrace.

Why the hell should anyone pay so much money for so bad craftsmanship?

[TattooedGQ]

Yup...it looks like poop....I'm glad I never got into the Panerai's or else that would cheeze me off too.

[psv]

Originally Posted by karmatp

The notion that this becomes "collectible" is something only Paneristis would dream up.


Really, what about the famous "error dial" on the Rolex GMT's, this is not just a risti thing. That was complete BS also, I had a D serial with the stick font. Let's face it, anything rare or unusual gets hyped as collectible, especially from sellers.

We are not talking about an error on a dial here, or general rarity of a model. We all know the laws of supply and demand, and what in general terms makes a collectible. This unfinished $75 movement in a special boutique edition watch sold for $4,500 is not an "error" of manufacturing. It is a big to customers and/or collectors. It is a "Jeez, I bet you we could put a turd into a Panerai case and sell it for top dollars, and no one would even care or notice" conversation among Panerai Corporate Executives.

Now, I'm not going to be as drastic to say that I hate Panerai for it. They have a very important historic position as a tools watch company, one of the original creators of military/dive watches, and some of the new pieces they are producing are very compelling, e.g. the upcoming 372, but still, I find this - especially as a former 318 owner - to be a major faux-pas.

[liptonnr]

Great article and great points of view! Thanks for everyone's input. I don't know what to think! I just buy a watch because I like it; I fpn't care about resale value. However, if I knew that a $50-$100 movement was in a $5k watch I would not buy it! If I was not told or it was misrepresented I would not be happy!

[snog]

Originally Posted by psv

I'm not sure I agree with the derogatory term "internet hysteria". People do have the right to express their opinion in this case (no pun intended).

By the way, I used to own the 318. I bought it directly from the boutique. I moved it because I found it didn't keep the time very well and the power reserve appeared to be way less than stated. The notion that this becomes "collectible" is something only Paneristis would dream up. I can understand that a coin or stamp with a production fault becomes collectible or extra valuable, but those irregularities were not made man-made but rather manufacturing mistakes that somehow slipped through quality control. This is a corporate scam, Panerai behaving like a profit-center instead of a respectable watch-maker that cares out its customers and takes great pride in the products it produces.

Sure, hardcore believers will try to spin this into something positive; try to make lemonade out of these lemons; but as far as I am concerned - call it internet hysteria if you want - Panerai's brand and image has received a major black eye.

one of the mods to the better grade ETA's is a longer PR so that ties in with these being the very base ETA's in the 318.

[jacksonian]

Can everyone in this thread who's disgusted with Panerai just post which Pams you own and how much you're selling them for now? I'm thinking I should be able to get some good deals if you guys have any nice pieces. I mean the price I'll pay has dropped significantly since this scandal broke, but I'll help you get out of Panerai all together so you can move on to a more respectable company.

[watchdaddy1]

Interesting thread. I for 1 know what I'm paying for from PANERAI -but I love the brand,& it's history, design, & overall appearence. I'm a little miffed about the subject, especially since I just purchased another piece last week from a boutique in Vegas-a 380 Rad (logo), makes me wanna run to the AD & have it inspected for this type of negligence, The 380 has a solid caseback & now I'm a little thankful, the finishing is just an added touch-but it's the little things that I enjoy on a purchase, & I would expect for the price I pay they would continue to go the extra mile like finishing,perlage, & so on. I will continue to purchase my hearts desires, (PANERAI) but w/ a little trepadition

[watchdaddy1]

Originally Posted by psv

We are not talking about an error on a dial here, or general rarity of a model. We all know the laws of supply and demand, and what in general terms makes a collectible. This unfinished $75 movement in a special boutique edition watch sold for $4,500 is not an "error" of manufacturing. It is a big to customers and/or collectors. It is a "Jeez, I bet you we could put a turd into a Panerai case and sell it for top dollars, and no one would even care or notice" conversation among Panerai Corporate Executives.

Now, I'm not going to be as drastic to say that I hate Panerai for it. They have a very important historic position as a tools watch company, one of the original creators of military/dive watches, and some of the new pieces they are producing are very compelling, e.g. the upcoming 372, but still, I find this - especially as a former 318 owner - to be a major faux-pas.

I'm a Risti but this sounds like something that could happen...There r some die hard Paneristi's out their...

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by psv

It is a "Jeez, I bet you we could put a turd into a Panerai case and sell it for top dollars, and no one would even care or notice" conversation among Panerai Corporate Executives.

Hence my "Duke Brothers" reference from my post earlier...


Caption - "I bet you a dollar they would notice and they did! Pay up Mortimer."

[toph]

Originally Posted by karmatp

Chris, I did not miss the point. I realised a long time ago that Luminors with ETA movements were way overpriced, now others are finally starting to think the same. I personally think all watches cost way to much these days for what they are, but hey, it's just a hobby.

Again, my point is not what you think it is.
At least they used to and still do finish, engrave, regulate, modify, enhance and cosc the other basic ETA movements.. It shows care , thought and professionalism and it is aestetically pleasing to teh average buyer. It might still be overpriced intrinsically but it can be justified to an extent after the time , effort and thought gone into improving the mov't. This one in the 318, shows contempt for the buyers, laziness, and IMHO obscuring/hiding the truth by saying exclusive.. not used in any other watch OXPXVII blah blah ..come on Trevor you have to laugh at that B/S

[psv]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Hence my "Duke Brothers" reference from my post earlier...


Caption - "I bet you a dollar they would notice and they did! Pay up Mortimer."

[HarryGoodman]

Originally Posted by jacksonian

Can everyone in this thread who's disgusted with Panerai just post which Pams you own and how much you're selling them for now? I'm thinking I should be able to get some good deals if you guys have any nice pieces. I mean the price I'll pay has dropped significantly since this scandal broke, but I'll help you get out of Panerai all together so you can move on to a more respectable company.

Yep there should be bargains to be found just from some of the most disgusted members this forum has seen in years. Come on disgusted members throw those old PAMs out and get rid of them fast, there are eager buyers here to help ease your pain.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by toph

Again, my point is not what you think it is.
At least they used to and still do finish, engrave, regulate, modify, enhance and cosc the other basic ETA movements.. It shows care , thought and professionalism and it is aestetically pleasing to teh average buyer. It might still be overpriced intrinsically but it can be justified to an extent after the time , effort and thought gone into improving the mov't. This one in the 318, shows contempt for the buyers, laziness, and IMHO obscuring/hiding the truth by saying exclusive.. not used in any other watch OXPXVII blah blah ..come on Trevor you have to laugh at that B/S

that's so glass half-empty, chris. life's too short to be so negative....another, more positive, way to look at it is that panerai wanted 318 owners to feel special, exclusive and different from all the other paneristi with this unique movement. it's a gift from richemont, and great WIS conversation fodder for the lucky owners of this one-of-a-kind timepiece.

if that was the goal, then, it's a grand slam success!!

[Cru Jones]

FWIW......i just sent this e-mail to the powers that be.....not that i really believe they read their e-mails, but, it made me feel better.


To: products@panerai.com
Cc: officinepanerai@panerai.com


Dear Sir or Madam,

I am an avid follower of Panerai, its history, its design ethos, its community, its burgeoning in-house manufacture, and I am a proud owner of a 164 purchased new in April of this year.

My growing affection for the brand found me visiting the boutique in Paris to expand my collection by adding a Radiomir, in particular the 338 or 346.

However, I have put this endeavour on hold due to the recent revelation concerning the 318 and its movement, which has been the subject of great conversation among collectors both on and off the Internet. I am of the opinion that the unfinished movement represents, at best, a horrific lapse in quality control, and, at worst, a cynical rip-off by Panerai of its avid collectors. The movement shows a complete lack of pride in the brand and complete disrespect for the consumer, and it has affected my impression of all other products offered by Panerai. Indeed, I find it difficult to enjoy my current 164 knowing what the brand apparently stands for.

I simply cannot, in good conscience, purchase another Panerai without the situation being rectified by Richemont. I hope that this situation will be addressed and this "black eye" removed from the Panerai world.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Best regards,

[Swede00]

Great Cru! Would be interesting to see the response.

[masterkiller]

Originally Posted by Swede00

Great Cru! Would be interesting to see the response.

+100

/masterkiller

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Swede00

Great Cru! Would be interesting to see the response.

Originally Posted by masterkiller

+100

/masterkiller

thanks....if i get a response (not that i'm holding my breath), i'll let y'all know for sure. also, for good measure, i forwarded the e-mail to the paris boutique (paris@panerai.com).



mostly, it was an e-mail for my well-being, so i could move on....i mean, who would want to stay mad at this for a long time??

[psv]

Cru, a nice attempt with the mail but there is absolutely zero chance that Panerai/Richemont will answer an email like that.

[esm]

That's it. I'm going to hunt down a 318. I think I could be onto something as huge as those COMEX, Flat 4 bezel insert, Error dial..etc WIS/internet hype phenomenon

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by psv

Cru, a nice attempt with the mail but there is absolutely zero chance that Panerai/Richemont will answer an email like that.

yeah, i know.

that's why i decided to forward it to my contact at the boutique here in paris....was just there on thursday.

anyway, like i said, it was more for me than anything else, and, writing the e-mail kept me (briefly) from looking at the 318's movement.

[watchdaddy1]

I'm not all that upset-concerned yes, lets "hope" they respond to our interest.Thanks Cru

[HarryGoodman]

Originally Posted by psv

Cru, a nice attempt with the mail but there is absolutely zero chance that Panerai/Richemont will answer an email like that.

Now if he had cc'ed every watch magazine email addy he could get his hands then it might be another story, maybe or the panerai execs could just sit back drinking brandy and smoking cigars and laughing about how it took 3 years after the watch was issued for the masses to notice the non-engraved movement.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by HarryGoodman

Now if he had cc'ed every watch magazine email addy he could get his hands then it might be another story, maybe or the panerai execs could just sit back drinking brandy and smoking cigars and laughing about how it took 3 years after the watch was issued for the masses to notice the non-engraved movement.

brutally funny

[Nucengineer]

Here's an analogy and how I see this. I go and buy a Porsch boxster which you can not see the engine (mid engine design and all). This is a true-ism. When you open the front and rear hoods you can not see the engine. To work on it, must be on a lift or drop the engine. Now suppose I have an engine problem and the engine has to be dropped and low and behold I am staring at a turbo charged Volkswagon engine. Do you think the porsch owner would be pissed and amazed at the arrogance of trying to pull something off like that? That's how I see this. A fifty thousand dollar car with a twenty thousand dollar car engine in it. The only difference is the magnitude of the swindle. To me this is a swindle on Panerai owners. My 2cents.

[sherwin]

Originally Posted by Swede00

Great Cru! Would be interesting to see the response.

would love to see the response (if any!), but i wont hold my breath for it.

[ocwatching]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

FWIW......i just sent this e-mail to the powers that be.....not that i really believe they read their e-mails, but, it made me feel better.


To: products@panerai.com
Cc: officinepanerai@panerai.com


Dear Sir or Madam,

I am an avid follower of Panerai, its history, its design ethos, its community, its burgeoning in-house manufacture, and I am a proud owner of a 164 purchased new in April of this year.

My growing affection for the brand found me visiting the boutique in Paris to expand my collection by adding a Radiomir, in particular the 338 or 346.

However, I have put this endeavour on hold due to the recent revelation concerning the 318 and its movement, which has been the subject of great conversation among collectors both on and off the Internet. I am of the opinion that the unfinished movement represents, at best, a horrific lapse in quality control, and, at worst, a cynical rip-off by Panerai of its avid collectors. The movement shows a complete lack of pride in the brand and complete disrespect for the consumer, and it has affected my impression of all other products offered by Panerai. Indeed, I find it difficult to enjoy my current 164 knowing what the brand apparently stands for.

I simply cannot, in good conscience, purchase another Panerai without the situation being rectified by Richemont. I hope that this situation will be addressed and this "black eye" removed from the Panerai world.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Best regards,

Nice one Cru..would love to see what type of answers you get but I am with Patrick, they will not respond.

[aboen]

Originally Posted by ocwatching

nice one cru..would love to see what type of answers you get but i am with patrick, they will not respond.

+1