Update to Sotheby's Reneged on a Winning Rolex Bid: Update

[fullofboats]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

I’m curious why Rich’s signature and title changed in 5 days, including the elimination of his phone number. Coincidence or funny business?


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I deleted the phone number.

I assume the different signature is due to mobile vs. office PC. He said he was traveling in the first email.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Jpccarguy

+1

I think that's your legal opinion right there, free of charge!

Sorry I’m not an attorney. The issues of who had a contract with whom is all I was opining.


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[Jpccarguy]

Regardless of who's right or wrong in this episode, the fact is that the OP was treated rather shabbily. Given Sotheby's reputation and history, it would be a small but important concession to forgive some future transaction fee or locate an equivalent watch, or similar gesture. Just my opinion.

[garyk]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

Invoice provided. Payment confirmed. Transaction completed.

I have no legal experience but I know when something stinks and this one stinks to high heaven as my dear old Alabama mom used to say!!!

[MrGoat]

How did Rich know you were the guy that was blasting them in the “Forums”? Did you allude to making a post or did he just supernaturally know it was you?

I ask because with this IT error I presume you’re not the only one who didn’t get the watch they thought they won. So him knowing it was you who posted (no specifics) on the forum and he knew and commented. That befuddles me.


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[JEdwardK]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

I’m curious why Rich’s signature and title changed in 5 days, including the elimination of his phone number. Coincidence or funny business?


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probably different signatures saved on mobile and desktop
i know i had to manually get all of my email signatures aligned when setting up a new phone

Originally Posted by fullofboats

I deleted the phone number.

I assume the different signature is due to mobile vs. office PC. He said he was traveling in the first email.

yes, agree

[JEdwardK]

to the OP
so the auction lot for this particular watch was supposed to be taken down as it was not available before the auction went live?

if so, there would be an easy trail of communication to prove this
from communications with the actual seller to in-house communication to take the listing down


if this case was to be filed in CA, you could file in limited jurisdiction (up to $25k in damages) with limited discovery and get all the answers you want and potentially get the case to trial
don't know how NY's courts are divided but it may be similar

[newonos]

My.02:
What does the contract say? When you signed up for the auction you likely agreed to its rules. Read that. It governs. If Sothebys (or seller) has right to withdraw after winning bid, you lose. But, depending on rules, maybe not. Any lawyer you hire would ask, 'what's the contract say?'. Also, contract may provide prevailing party attorneys fees in event of litigation. That can be tour friend. Or enemy. Depending on the righteousness of your cause.

[Michael T]

I would suggest the OP read the auction house electronic contract which he surely accepted before bidding. That would be the binding contract. I would review it for ordinary negligence language. As one of the previous posts indicated, they are a broker and do not hold title to the goods. The very first question in a commercial dispute, what does the contract say?

[kieselguhr]

You could hire a lawyer as a matter of principle. But it will cost you. Dearly. With low probability of a good outcome.

You could also bring this to the attention of the media. Both traditional news media and social media if you feel so inclined. It would cost them a lot of money to fix PR. Although not sure it would gain traction unless shared with watch media outlets. The watch world looooooves the drama llama these days

[77T]

Since at least 2019, Sotheby’s T&C’s used language that avoids lawsuits.

DISPUTES BETWEEN YOU AND US WILL BE RESOLVED BY BINDING, INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION
(caps are Sotheby’s in the time honored tradition that important provisions be conspicuous in contracts)

They also outline in a very long webpage that they aren’t responsible for errors on their digital platform.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/terms-conditions


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[Tools]

There is likely no case here.

Honest listing or advertising errors almost never hold the lister responsible for hurt feelings or some future nebulous "value lost" claims.

[smym18]

Can't believe some of the replies I'm reading here. Imagine thinking Sotheby's should pay you $25k? Really worth getting lawyers involved because you didn't end up getting a Rolex half off?

[214270Explorer]

Sotheby's made an honest mistake - they are human just like the rest of us.

Just move on already!

[emersm]

Originally Posted by 214270Explorer

Sotheby's made an honest mistake - they are human just like the rest of us.

This^

[hgg43c]

I've bought and sold through Sothebys in the past, and having had an instance where (in my case) the buyer of one of my consigned lots reneged on their purchase.
these things happen unfortunately - but you likely don't have a case.

[Nairn1980]

Time to move on

[asiparks]

sorry this happened, but like many other posters have said, you're not likely to get the outcome you want.
Similar will have happened before at Sotherby's and you can bet that their T&C take account of, and indemnify them against, such occurrences. You or an army of lawyers can write letters till your hands fall off, but far bigger scandals haven't really dented Sotherby's rep, so a $10K watch dispute isn't going to move their needle.
No doubt you were excited at getting the watch at 1/2 of your estimated "market"value- but they would simply argue that your bid, as it won, was the market value.

Sometimes things just don't go the way you want- shrug, take the refund and move on. Your anger and energy will just be wasted.

[TimeAZ]

Originally Posted by fullofboats

I feel no stress. This will be fun and is a matter of principle. I am stubborn, bored, and stupid.

I'm rooting for you. Please keep the updates coming. This is better than Netflix

[rolexjackson]

I would never do business with Southbys after hearing this, like someone said earlier pawnshop with white gloves! Hire an attorney they owe you a watch!


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[BillA]

I am sorry for your troubles.
If Sotheby’s does not have in their possession the watch to send you, then what can you gain from it?
Legal action? I am sure this is not the first time that Sotheby’s has reneged on a deal and they know their legal rights.
I agree with other posters, get your money back, perhaps some expenses, and move on.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by asiparks

sorry this happened, but like many other posters have said, you're not likely to get the outcome you want.
Similar will have happened before at sotherby's and you can bet that their t&c take account of, and indemnify them against, such occurrences. You or an army of lawyers can write letters till your hands fall off, but far bigger scandals haven't really dented sotherby's rep, so a $10k watch dispute isn't going to move their needle.
No doubt you were excited at getting the watch at 1/2 of your estimated "market"value- but they would simply argue that your bid, as it won, was the market value.

Sometimes things just don't go the way you want- shrug, take the refund and move on. Your anger and energy will just be wasted.

+1

[Boaters]

To me it is not so much the money it is the principle. I really think what they are saying is total bull sh"". Then tell you so kindly there legal team is basically ready. They screwed up and should at least try to do something to make you happy..

[Uggi]

I don't see the issue.
They made a mistake, they explained their mistake, they apologised and made sure you weren't out of pocket.
What's the problem?
You're asking for something which is unreasonable so you aren't going to get it.

[Max7857]

"All orders are subject to our acceptance, and we will not be obligated to fulfill any order unless and until we accept it."

This is from their retail terms of sale. From my point of view the OP is entitled some type of compensation. Sotheby did accept the order by evidence of the invoice and accepting payment.

The retail agreement also list reasons why an order might not be accepted such as out of stock, no longer available, etc. The decision to not accept an order is refrerenced as taking place PRIOR to confirmation.

Good luck to OP.

[md3113]

I don’t believe that the mistake here warrants 25k. I also don’t believe simply offering a refund makes this mistake, which is all on Sotheby’s, makes this right. I would have assumed that they would offer some type on compensation. Hardly the luxury/high end image that buyers and sellers pay for.

[AF_Rob]

Originally Posted by Max7857

"All orders are subject to our acceptance, and we will not be obligated to fulfill any order unless and until we accept it."

This is from their retail terms of sale. From my point of view the OP is entitled some type of compensation.

Good luck to OP.

That is the one piece of ground he seems to have. Like you, I hope it somehow works out.

He’s given options that will make him whole. Options I don’t see them taking, since they have gone radio silence on him.

If I was going through all of this, even if the watch would show up tomorrow, I would hate it every time I wore it. No watch is worth this amount of trouble.

I know the OP’s motivation is principal based at this point, which is why I wish him the best of luck.


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[Watcheroo]

Keep us posted, OP


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[Boopie]

Originally Posted by BillA

I am sorry for your troubles.
If Sotheby’s does not have in their possession the watch to send you, then what can you gain from it?
Legal action? I am sure this is not the first time that Sotheby’s has reneged on a deal and they know their legal rights.
I agree with other posters, get your money back, perhaps some expenses, and move on.

There is a lot of good advice to OP on this post. It sounds as if the auction occurred in New York State. It hasn’t been pointed out whether the contract calls for a choice of law of the state of New York (I.e. that’s the law the arbitrator or court will follow), and I have no idea what the law is there.

We also don’t seem to be privy to the contract with the original owner, so unless we know what actually happened, and what the law says, the outcome between OP and Sothebys will be hard to predict or guess. I imagine if a lawsuit is ultimately brought (or demand for arbitration made) the original owner will be brought in own way or another, and then the true story of “what happened” will come to light. I also imagine the contract provides for scenarios where the seller can properly pull an item pre-sale. I would also guess (or hope) that the law lays out what happens if a stolen item is sold at auction.

Was the watch erroneously given to Sotheby’s (seller somehow mistakenly gave Sotheby’s the wrong watch to sell)? Was the watch stolen and the “true” owner saw it online and told Sotheby’s and provided a police report, so Sotheby’s unwittingly sold a stolen watch? Was the watch supposed to come with a reserve that in actuality wasn’t met, and Sotheby’s IT team erroneously didn’t input the reserve into the system? True “seller’s remorse”? These are just some scenarios that come to my mind. I’m sure my fellow WIS here can think of others. I’ve never bought or sold anything at any auction house (just buy from eBay, never sold), know nothing of the contract with seller, and don’t know NY law. I also don’t work in that industry.

The broader question is what to do about it. Generally, settlement and compromise are good things. Abraham Lincoln, who was a lawyer before becoming President, himself urged people to settle and not litigate. While it is a nice watch, it’s not a rare vintage watch, or one owned by anyone famous etc. No doubt the watch specialists at Sotheby’s can source something similar. There are certainly many options, as some have suggested here, on how to make it right.

We all have our own threshold of when something is “worth” the fight, and when it’s not. Since the OP is asking for advice, I’m in the “try to work it out” camp, especially given that Sotheby’s expressed a willingness to source another equivalent watch, and is in a position to do so.

Keep us posted!

[Sunny Arizona]

Originally Posted by casadecamporolex

You will only burn dollars to get a feeling of vindication.
Billion dollar companies trample individuals; forget about the principle.
And a lawyer will see your desire to act and feed their own bank account using the energy.
Why do people always say, "Call a lawyer"?

Boom