How important is box and papers?

[AirKingLover]

Hello, new to the forum but a long time Rolex enthusiast. I am curious what the members thoughts are on the "box and papers" question. Obviously it is ideal to have them on a vintage or collectable watch but how much does not having them diminish long term collector value? Thanks--AKL

[Tools]

If you are selling, they are worth a lot.... if you are buying, not so much.

[Hub6152]

I’d say it’s more important to have them with a modern Rolex, as the question of authenticity is always helped by having them (although “papers” in themselves don’t guarantee authenticity).

With vintage pieces it just adds an extra cost if you’re buying and extra value when selling. Condition is everything and the only time it’s really worth having them then is if buying from the original owner (or with known provenance). Personally I bought all my past vintage collection without papers.

[Filipão]

IMHO a full set of box booklets papers tag anchor will be 1k more

[btinl]

Depending on the watch itself, the box and papers can add a significant sum to the overall price of the watch (10%+).

[zapokee]

I'll pay a bit extra for B&P, but they don't affect my choice about whether to buy a watch. If the B&P are present, it's just a nice bonus.

[Bill11783]

I would only buy a watch with the box and papers. Very important to me. I tend to hold on to watches. Eventually every one will be considered vintage.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Bill11783

I would only buy a watch with the box and papers. Very important to me. I tend to hold on to watches. Eventually every one will be considered vintage.

Fair enough, but it’s the ones that are already vintage (40+ years old) where correct box & full papers become extremely rare.

[stmoore]

You can’t wear the box or papers. They do very little to legitimize the watch - too many fakes and ‘creations’ out there.

All that said, I have owned some watches in the past where it was cool to look at the original receipt and price of the watch... but this happens once.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by stmoore

I have owned some watches in the past where it was cool to look at the original receipt and price of the watch... but this happens once.

Agree. You spend half a day appreciating vintage box and papers when you get the watch, then put them in a closet for the rest of time. Not worth paying an extra grand for.

An exception: I wouldn't buy a very modern watch (like a Sub C or a Patek 5711) without box and papers. These days everyone knows you need to keep the B&P, so an expensive modern piece without them screams either fake or theft. Ain't nobody selling a legit 5711 without B&P.

[hutch300]

I have mixed feelings on it. I assume any box with a vintage watch was not original to the purchase. Papers are nice but I prefer the better value of no B&P and purchasing from a reputable source. If I need a box and papers to feel good about the purchase I already am not working with the right person IMO. For a modern watch though - you are protecting your investment more and like said above - theft can be a concern. I don't want the juju of a stolen watch or even wonder.

[1665fan]

25% added value or in that area

[VintageVagabound]

Originally Posted by Filipão

IMHO a full set of box booklets papers tag anchor will be 1k more

Check out a flat four Kermit. Nobody thought having the papers would be a big deal in 2004. Now having one with box and papers makes it worth 50% more?

I prefer to have papers (boxes I can buy anytime). The reality is that it adds value to the watch. If you never plan on selling the watch and don’t really care about the money (why are you buying a Rolex to begin with?) then it doesn’t matter.

[swish77]

B&P adds a lot of value, especially for high-end vintage pieces like 6263 Daytonas and 1665 DRSDs. How to quantify it is tough, but I'd say in the 30 percent range. (The reference above to an additional $1K in value is inaccurate, IMHO, even on modern Rolexes.)

All you need to do to get a better sense of added value of full sets is check out sales listings and high-end auction house sales of vintage Rolexes. The differences in prices between naked watches and full-set watches are big.

I never understood the argument "you can't wear boxes and papers." This is the collector world. It's not about that. I have a buddy who collects pre-Columbian art and statues. Most of it just sits on a shelf in a den. He can't "wear" those items either, but he loves collecting them. Same goes for many collectors of art, watches, cars, guitars, etc ... Sometimes this stuff is never even used, but people love having them.

[stmoore]

I actually wear all of my pre-Columbian art and statues. I’d never think of just having them in the den.

Originally Posted by swish77

B&P adds a lot of value, especially for high-end vintage pieces like 6263 Daytonas and 1665 DRSDs. How to quantify it is tough, but I'd say in the 30 percent range. (The reference above to an additional $1K in value is inaccurate, IMHO, even on modern Rolexes.)

All you need to do to get a better sense of added value of full sets is check out sales listings and high-end auction house sales of vintage Rolexes. The differences in prices between naked watches and full-set watches are big.

I never understood the argument "you can't wear boxes and papers." This is the collector world. It's not about that. I have a buddy who collects pre-Columbian art and statues. Most of it just sits on a shelf in a den. He can't "wear" those items either, but he loves collecting them. Same goes for many collectors of art, watches, cars, guitars, etc ... Sometimes this stuff is never even used, but people love having them.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Filipão

IMHO a full set of box booklets papers tag anchor will be 1k more

Surely you are joking...

Most vintage sets are sold at a premium price when compared to the purchase of only a vintage watch. When pricing vintage sets, such as vintage Submariners, GMTs, Explorers, Daytonas or even Datejusts, premiums can vary anywhere from 25% to 50%...maybe even more.

The most important aspect though, when purchasing a vintage watch is the condition of the watch. A "ratty watch" that is a complete set doesn't bring much excitement to the buying community therefore it will not bring much of a premium or will sell at a minimal premium when compared to finer examples.

[athom]

it costs a lot when you buy it but doesn't worth a lot...real collectors want THE piece, don't care about box or papers...

[swaini3]

Interesting. Many different opinions. I think they are important and worth a premium, if they are legit of course. It wouldn't stop me from buying a watch without them though.

[roh123]

Find the right watch first. Box and papers are far down my list. Quality is so much more important.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by athom

it costs a lot when you buy it but doesn't worth a lot...real collectors want THE piece, don't care about box or papers...

Yes, the watch itself is the most important thing, of course, but there are plenty of "real" collectors who want full sets on vintage Rolexes, and they obsessively hunt them all over the world. Full sets on vintage sports Rolexes are much rarer and therefore command a big premium.

[Goochy]

Originally Posted by stmoore

I actually wear all of my pre-Columbian art and statues. I’d never think of just having them in the den.

[Toronto Soup King]

I've never cared about them as a buyer, but then I don't buy or own "provenance" watches - just old watches to wear personally, I really like Rolex midcentury designs but am not a serious collector. Of a dozen watches I have one mismatched box, and service papers for only two (that I took to RSC myself.) So: It depends what tier of watch you're buying, I'd say.

[harry in montreal]

I rather have a clean dial and a nice Case.

The papers do give nice provenance. Did it have an oyster band originally? How about a 62510h?

The papers are very interesting but can be faked. But they are fun if you own a set.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

The papers are very interesting but can be faked. But they are fun if you own a set.

Sure, and watches and their parts can be faked too, and a lot more frequently.

Like anything in the vintage Rolex world, collectors need to be careful and know what they're looking at. There are ways to tell whether papers are authentic or not, the same way we can determine whether watches and all their parts are authentic. Neither is necessarily easy to do, but it can be done.

[stewester]

They're a nice to have if the watch itself is an excellent example, but I always think that for the premium they add I could have an even better watch, so I've rarely bought B&P examples.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by swish77

Sure, and watches and their parts can be faked too, and a lot more frequently.

Like anything in the vintage Rolex world, collectors need to be careful and know what they're looking at. There are ways to tell whether papers are authentic or not, the same way we can determine whether watches and all their parts are authentic. Neither is necessarily easy to do, but it can be done.

Open papers is an issue. They are not hard to come by. Like it or not but basically anyone motivated can put together a set fairly easily. There’s a reason why there’s a big market for these things.

I do however like provenance. A watch with a set is nice together with original receipt and other cool things that may belong with the watch and story.

Anyone lucky to have that should feel very happy!

[1watch]

Depends on the model, but agree with comments about buying a correct and honest piece as the primary focus. A vintage ref in great and original condition is more valuable than the same ref in good condition with box, paper, etc.

[Filipão]

On my previous opinion (+1k for box & papers)

Yes, sets' value will depend on the watches' vintage and rarity.

I have some without, but either had or have now (serviced by me) Rolex Service papers.

That's peace of mind for my heirs when I'm gone.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by roh123

Open papers is an issue.

Agreed. That's why I'd never pay a premium for a Rolex guarantee paper with a hand-written serial number, even though they can be completely original and authentic. If I'm going to pay more for a full set with a vintage Rolex, it must come with a punched paper, five holes for the U.S. market and six holes for other markets.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by swish77

Agreed. That's why I'd never pay a premium for a Rolex guarantee paper with a hand-written serial number, even though they can be completely original and authentic. If I'm going to pay more for a full set with a vintage Rolex, it must come with a punched paper, five holes for the U.S. market and six holes for other markets.

And yet we know people punching papers as well. Looking AOK.