-Banned user Rode

[boatbasin]

"Online abusive relationship"? Sounds like she was a willing participant. They should do some research on her accounts to see if this was done before.

[tyler1980]

good resolution... but im confused as the wire wasn't really "reversed" correct? Its going to be transferred back to you is my understanding as a separate transaction. Can a wire even be reversed? Thats my biggest fear if i ever sold anything... get paid, send the watch, and then the wire gets reversed. I don't think that is possible though

[uracowman]

I’m a little late to the party but I thought once a wire is sent, it’s irreversible?

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by uracowman

I’m a little late to the party but I thought once a wire is sent, it’s irreversible?

Not necessarily. This case proves its not always the case. The bar is set high though and you have to initiate process before funds are withdrawn or transferred at the receiving bank.

[mitchellp]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Not necessarily. This case proves its not always the case. The bar is set high though and you have to initiate process before funds are withdrawn or transferred at the receiving bank.

That’s exactly right. Within 48 hrs of the wire being sent, I contacted the local PD, and both sending/receiving banks. This was immediately flagged as fraud, and most receiving banks will automatically freeze funds during their review period. The local PD assigned an investigator. I was EXTREMELY fortunate for the local PD, and the fact that the funds were never disbursed. As noted from others, the key is to act fast. Hopefully this does not happen to anyone else.

[Rashid.bk]

Thank you for sharing this story. Happy you got it sorted it out favorably. I have been very fortunate that from the beginning the very first guys I bought from were DavidSW and Bodybump who were stellar during the whole process.

Originally Posted by tyler1980

good resolution... but im confused as the wire wasn't really "reversed" correct? Its going to be transferred back to you is my understanding as a separate transaction. Can a wire even be reversed? Thats my biggest fear if i ever sold anything... get paid, send the watch, and then the wire gets reversed. I don't think that is possible though

This would be interesting to know. I have heard of people paying(not sure exactly how, credit card maybe) and when the watch is shipped, they reverse the payment and the account is later to be discovered closed or something like that. Then you are sol on your watch.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by mitchellp

That’s exactly right. Within 48 hrs of the wire being sent, I contacted the local PD, and both sending/receiving banks. This was immediately flagged as fraud, and most receiving banks will automatically freeze funds during their review period. The local PD assigned an investigator. I was EXTREMELY fortunate for the local PD, and the fact that the funds were never disbursed. As noted from others, the key is to act fast. Hopefully this does not happen to anyone else.

so should the standard be... wait 48hours as a seller to ship then?

I would be concerned with being accused of fraud by a scammer and then having to sort it out. I guess that's what i would do as i would want to protect myself.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Not necessarily. This case proves its not always the case. The bar is set high though and you have to initiate process before funds are withdrawn or transferred at the receiving bank.

This case proves a wire transfer can be frozen for fraud, not that it can be reversed. A reverse would be performed by the buyer at will. This was frozen by the banks for fraud review at request of law enforcement, and a subsequent transfer made.

[T4ME]

Perhaps it should be mandatory for new members to read certain threads as part of the onboarding process. Soon as you create an account you get to read the rules of the forum as well as some required reading. Perhaps TRF should create a clearing house, sellers send the watch to a neutral party... buyer sends money to same neutral party, payment and watch are verified, small fee is perhaps charged and all shipping and reshipping is on the buyer and seller …… just a thought

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by T4ME

Perhaps it should be mandatory for new members to read certain threads as part of the onboarding process. Soon as you create an account you get to read the rules of the forum as well as some required reading. Perhaps TRF should create a clearing house, sellers send the watch to a neutral party... buyer sends money to same neutral party, payment and watch are verified, small fee is perhaps charged and all shipping and reshipping is on the buyer and seller …… just a thought

TRF offers a bulletin board for adults to find watches for sale. The forum isn't providing a service. Providing buyer training and intervening in sales is a service that imparts significant liability on the forum.

Better that people do proper due diligence before spending their money.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

This case proves a wire transfer can be frozen for fraud, not that it can be reversed. A reverse would be performed by the buyer at will. This was frozen by the banks for fraud review at request of law enforcement, and a subsequent transfer made.

I never said a reverse was possible in all instances if initiated quick enough. Obviously an investigation is required as is the assistance of the receiving bank. The point is a buyer can be made whole again if there is good reason ie scam. Wire transfers are NOT final.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

This case proves a wire transfer can be frozen for fraud, not that it can be reversed. A reverse would be performed by the buyer at will. This was frozen by the banks for fraud review at request of law enforcement, and a subsequent transfer made.

THIS is what i thought. not reversed.

Frozen. so the money cant go anywhere. Then i assume it gets confiscated some how and then it gets put back into the buyers account or the scammer is forced to transfer it back.

Not that the money goes, and then bounces back like a refund as part of the same transaction.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

I never said a reverse was possible in all instances if initiated quick enough. Obviously an investigation is required as is the assistance of the receiving bank. The point is a buyer can be made whole again if there is good reason ie scam. Wire transfers are NOT final.

It is final. The transaction is completed. Further recourse may be available, but the buyer alone cannot make that happen.

Words have meaning. And in this case the word reverse is not appropriate to the remedy, as it is not reversed. Rather, a second transaction is initiated as a result of the fraud case, presuming the case resolves in favor of the buyer and the funds are accessible.

[123Blueface]

Wow!
Glad it all worked out.
You were very fortunate on many fronts.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

TRF offers a bulletin board for adults to find watches for sale. The forum isn't providing a service. Providing buyer training and intervening in sales is a service that imparts significant liability on the forum.



Better that people do proper due diligence before spending their money.

Agreed.

Proof is that these suggestions pop up so often that it tells me newbies don’t bother to even read the stickies in the Classifieds.


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[mitchellp]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

This case proves a wire transfer can be frozen for fraud, not that it can be reversed. A reverse would be performed by the buyer at will. This was frozen by the banks for fraud review at request of law enforcement, and a subsequent transfer made.

This is not exactly correct...

In most cases, local PD does not initiate the freeze. Once a bank even gets a whiff of fraud, they freeze the funds. My calls to my bank and the receiving bank were enough to immediately freeze the funds, not local PD contact.

The lessons: buy the seller, and if you do make a mistake (as you all should know, humans are prone to do) act FAST.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by mitchellp

This is not exactly correct...

In most cases, local PD does not initiate the freeze. Once a bank even gets a whiff of fraud, they freeze the funds. My calls to my bank and the receiving bank were enough to immediately freeze the funds, not local PD contact.

+1

[T4ME]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

TRF offers a bulletin board for adults to find watches for sale. The forum isn't providing a service. Providing buyer training and intervening in sales is a service that imparts significant liability on the forum.

Better that people do proper due diligence before spending their money.

I concede on the intervening and liability point. I still purpose the mandatory reading.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by mitchellp

This is not exactly correct...

In most cases, local PD does not initiate the freeze. Once a bank even gets a whiff of fraud, they freeze the funds. My calls to my bank and the receiving bank were enough to immediately freeze the funds, not local PD contact.

The lessons: buy the seller, and if you do make a mistake (as you all should know, humans are prone to do) act FAST.

In virtually no case is the wire reversible without approval from the recipient once the funds are credited to the recipient. Otherwise, buyers could get their money back on any transaction with a phone call. The financial system would be unworkable. There has to be an investigation and both banks need to agree it's fraud (or in error), or a legal action needs to order the transfer.

You were fortunate that local PD provided the banks the information they needed to agree that fraud occurred, and that the scammer hadn't immediately disbursed the funds. Had it been just you asking for funds from the recipients account without law enforcement corroboration, or had the scammer acted fast and moved the funds, you would have no recourse to recover your funds.

[77T]

We could go around and around but the point is that fast work can get the funds wired to a fraudster back in one’s account.

The OP has done a great service explaining the whole scheme here and kibitzing about it with “if’s and but’s” is meaningless.


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[mitchellp]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

In virtually no case is the wire reversible without approval from the recipient once the funds are credited to the recipient. Otherwise, buyers could get their money back on any transaction with a phone call. The financial system would be unworkable. There has to be an investigation and both banks need to agree it's fraud (or in error), or a legal action needs to order the transfer.

You were fortunate that local PD provided the banks the information they needed to agree that fraud occurred, and that the scammer hadn't immediately disbursed the funds. Had it been just you asking for funds from the recipients account without law enforcement corroboration, or had the scammer acted fast and moved the funds, you would have no recourse to recover your funds.

Right, I apologize to all if I said or insinuated that this wire was “reversed.” The funds were sent back, regardless of the bank terminology.

You said that the investigator contacted the receiving back, thus, creating a freeze on the funds. That is incorrect.

In contacting both institutions, the receiving institution told me that they put a freeze on the funds at their bank (as I provided date, time, amount, etc.) at the time of my call, due to their back and forth with my bank, and my insistent calling. This was before an investigator contacted them.

Again, the minute a financial institution (especially a smaller, perhaps more conservative bank) receives word of fraud, typical bank protocol is to pause and investigate. I was incredibly fortunate in every stretch of the imagination, especially in the fact that the funds were still in the bank.

[mitchellp]

Originally Posted by 77T

We could go around and around but the point is that fast work can get the funds wired to a fraudster back in one’s account.

The OP has done a great service explaining the whole scheme here and kibitzing about it with “if’s and but’s” is meaningless.


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Totally agree. Seriously, thank you all for your support, guidance, and wisdom.

[teabags001]

Sorry to hear.


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[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by mitchellp

Right, I apologize to all if I said or insinuated that this wire was “reversed.” The funds were sent back, regardless of the bank terminology.

You said that the investigator contacted the receiving back, thus, creating a freeze on the funds. That is incorrect.

In contacting both institutions, the receiving institution told me that they put a freeze on the funds at their bank (as I provided date, time, amount, etc.) at the time of my call, due to their back and forth with my bank, and my insistent calling. This was before an investigator contacted them.

Again, the minute a financial institution (especially a smaller, perhaps more conservative bank) receives word of fraud, typical bank protocol is to pause and investigate. I was incredibly fortunate in every stretch of the imagination, especially in the fact that the funds were still in the bank.

Banks don't freeze funds just on someone's say so. If they did, it would get abused and there would be a million claims a day. And a recipient's bank will protect the recipient's interests to avoid being liable for scurrilous claims against the recipient.

I thought I implied your case is unique because the local PD gave the banks the evidence they needed to act quickly. Without that, it would have just been your claims against his claims, which would have needed a court to resolve.

No one should entertain a wire transfer with the notion that they can just get it reversed if something goes wrong. Which, goes back to buy the seller.

[mitchellp]

[QUOTE=Abdullah71601;9209089] Banks don't freeze funds just on someone's say so. If they did, it would get abused and there would be a million claims a day. And a recipients bank will protect the recipients interests to avoid being liable for scurrilous claims against the recipient.

I do agree to an extent, however, this is likely an overly simplistic view of bank protocol.

I reported the incident to both banks within 48 hrs. Once the receiving bank heard from both me and my bank, a freeze was put on the funds. At the point of the freeze, no investigator was involved. Therefore, the freeze was in fact based on someone’s say so.

Given a conversation with a receiving bank rep, it’s likely they honored our request due to suspicious activity; perhaps multiple inflows and outflows offshore, wires from different people for large amounts, etc.. Who knows, but yes, funds were frozen prior to investigator/local PD correspondence.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by mitchellp

I do agree to an extent, however, this is likely an overly simplistic view of bank protocol.

I reported the incident to both banks within 48 hrs. Once the receiving bank heard from both me and my bank, a freeze was put on the funds. At the point of the freeze, no investigator was involved. Therefore, the freeze was in fact based on someone’s say so.

Given a conversation with a receiving bank rep, it’s likely they honored our request due to suspicious activity; perhaps multiple inflows and outflows offshore, wires from different people for large amounts, etc.. Who knows, but yes, funds were frozen prior to investigator/local PD correspondence.

I concede that you got a bank to act on your say so (I'd never bank there if that's all it took to freeze an account).

Implying that people here will get their money back with a few phone calls as long as they act fast is dangerous.