Patek owners - Experience with independent brands e.g. Greubel

[ars1g09]

Hi all - recently paid a visit to Greubel Forsey's first ever boutique that just opened in Tokyo. I have always been interested in their GMT line, so they offered me the next one to come in for their new GMT model releasing this year - pic attached below.

My current collection consists of mostly Patek, a mix of Nautliuses, Aquanauts & Annual/Perpetual calendars (with a couple of Rolexes and APs)

With that in mind, wondering if someone has been through a similar journey as me and progressed eventually to independent brands such as Greubel or others - what was your experience? Did you find it to be too 'novel'? Did you end up loving the independents as much? Or even more? Was the half a million dollar price tag worth it?

Any thoughts/stories/experiences are much appreciated.

[GGGMT]

Can’t really tell time on it but it’s stunning!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dauster]

I recently tried a few on and I liked some of them but given the hefty price tag I don’t think I would buy them and rather invest in my Patek relationship and buy a MR down the line.

I did try on this round greubel (last pic) and really loved it but price was $225k - not exactly a casual pick up after a quick lunch ;)

Here are some pics



Personal favorite last and below


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vasco]

Going through independents is a very nice experience. It's a very diversified field but if you go in the more expensive and more high-end side, it will definitely be a feast for the eyes. It will shape your eyes on finishing levels, GF is one of the best. My experience dates from 10 years ago but, though hefty and big pieces, they are real little marvels you spend a lot of time observing their intricacies, it's polished, angled, sandblasted everywhere and at the highest standards... Their Quadruple Tourbillons, especially in "openworked" versions are outstanding. The drawback is that looking at other brands you might like today may end out "tarnishing" your experience a little. The time each watchmaker spends on a watch is in another league from say a Patek, etc...

But the wearability requires a bigger wrist (even if I remember they provided 1 or 2 smaller models but going for a "simpler" one with GF is maybe loosing something) and back then the value retention was bad.

In such field, Voutilainen offers a similar level of excellence, though less detailed, like Dufour. Roger Smith of course.

You can also have a look at Gronefeld, Lang & Heyne, some MB&F pieces (wide range of levels), A Laurent Ferrier Tourbillon, more classical, will do the job as well, De Bethune (depending on the model though).

[watchucallit]

I went through a similar journey over the years. I started with some of the usual brands Patek and AP and Lange.. I still enjoy and acquire some of their pieces. However I also purchased a Dornbluth some years ago and then got quite interested in Gronefeld and GF. I now own 3 Gronefelds and 2 GFs. Have considered MBandF Lang and Heyne. At one point I did own a Journey and two Richard Mille but sold them. The GFs are big but they balance well on my small wrist. I would say more comfortable than some of my Langes.

Also I almost pulled the plug on one of the GMT World Timers but with the debate about if daylight savings time would be altered.. decided not to.

[ars1g09]

Thanks all for your response!

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I went through a similar journey over the years. I started with some of the usual brands Patek and AP and Lange.. I still enjoy and acquire some of their pieces. However I also purchased a Dornbluth some years ago and then got quite interested in Gronefeld and GF. I now own 3 Gronefelds and 2 GFs. Have considered MBandF Lang and Heyne. At one point I did own a Journey and two Richard Mille but sold them. The GFs are big but they balance well on my small wrist. I would say more comfortable than some of my Langes.

Also I almost pulled the plug on one of the GMT World Timers but with the debate about if daylight savings time would be altered.. decided not to.

Originally Posted by Vasco

Going through independents is a very nice experience. It's a very diversified field but if you go in the more expensive and more high-end side, it will definitely be a feast for the eyes. It will shape your eyes on finishing levels, GF is one of the best. My experience dates from 10 years ago but, though hefty and big pieces, they are real little marvels you spend a lot of time observing their intricacies, it's polished, angled, sandblasted everywhere and at the highest standards... Their Quadruple Tourbillons, especially in "openworked" versions are outstanding. The drawback is that looking at other brands you might like today may end out "tarnishing" your experience a little. The time each watchmaker spends on a watch is in another league from say a Patek, etc...

But the wearability requires a bigger wrist (even if I remember they provided 1 or 2 smaller models but going for a "simpler" one with GF is maybe loosing something) and back then the value retention was bad.

In such field, Voutilainen offers a similar level of excellence, though less detailed, like Dufour. Roger Smith of course.

You can also have a look at Gronefeld, Lang & Heyne, some MB&F pieces (wide range of levels), A Laurent Ferrier Tourbillon, more classical, will do the job as well, De Bethune (depending on the model though).

The experiences seem encouraging, thank you for sharing! Can you guys tell me more about:
1. the buying experience - did you buy directly/secondary? if directly are discounts commonplace
2. value retention - i find that I cannot find comps of recent sales on the recent GMT models (none are on sale on chrono24 and none have really been on sale on auction houses) - the older ones I know seem to lose quite a bit of value, are the more recent ones still losing value?

thanks in advance!

[Oryx]

I have been through this journey and as part of this process I have immersed myself in trying to really understand how each company really operates. The notion that each brand designs their own movements, makes their own components and make their watches in a very traditional and manual way is not the reality of it at all. A lot of brand use specialist movement designers such as Andreas Strehler and a lot of components are made via CNC by outside suppliers. Finishing also varies drastically from brand to brand with some makers still use traditional techniques and others using machines.

In the case of Laurent Ferrier for example use movements supplied by La Fabrique du Temps (owned by LVMH) and use a lot of automated processes. Even the likes or Dufour - who uses a base JLC calibre uses CNC machines etc. Gronefeld use movements designed by Strehler with compounents made by external suppliers and so focus on construction and finishing. The list goes on - even RW Smith uses CNC machines. In the case of GF they founders have created a great brand operating at the highest end of the market and catering to the very rich however they are currently going through major strategic transition with Stephen Forsey stepping down and handing the reigns to Antonio Calce after they company purchased the stake back from Richemont (funded by some Chinese investors). Hence the recent move down market into more accessible watches with smaller and more practical cases. Unfortunately this is also dilutive to the brands DNA and many collectors feel that the need to chase profits could dilute the brand. I think this is something to monitor and ultimately could have an impact on residuals over time.

For me the brands that have a real manufacturing capability supplying other brands with specialist components and parts such as Romain Gauthier, FP Journe and Voutilainen are the brands that will most likely to be around for the long term and the ones that I would recommend that you consider.

[Ichiran]

Forget about value retention if you buy independents. These watches are illiquid, has no market reference for values and only a very small pool of connoisseurs/collectors know about them. Regard them at zero value and buy from that perspective. I'm in the midst of collecting these watches and I still buy the occasional Patek/AP though I love them all.

[Vasco]

Great trio, Romain Gauthier makes an incredible finishing work and I love those versions of the Résonance....

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Forget about value retention if you buy independents. These watches are illiquid, has no market reference for values and only a very small pool of connoisseurs/collectors know about them. Regard them at zero value and buy from that perspective. I'm in the midst of collecting these watches and I still buy the occasional Patek/AP though I love them all.

That info is 20 years old… every watch you listed is highly liquid with deep market…

[rolexpatek363]

Not Greubel Forsey, but FP Journe, and yes I have totally lost interest in Rolex and to a slightly lesser extent PP.

[Medem]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Forget about value retention… Regard them at zero value and buy from that perspective.

This.
Excellent trio.

[DavidSB]

I'm starting to explore some independents but I'm concerned about service. Any experience re: warranty and post warranty services, how long and cost? Thanks in advance.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Great trio, Romain Gauthier makes an incredible finishing work and I love those versions of the Résonance....

Thanks! The 1967's finishing is up there with some of the best. That's my favorite watch

[WatchEater666]

Well, I wouldn't really worry about value retention, just buy used/bottom of the depreciation curve. You'll probably still lose a bit of money but it's no big deal to enjoy great art.

The GF stuff is amazing, especially the older watches but I think Romain Gauthier, MB&F, Voutilainen, Armin Strom, etc... all give you way more value for the dollar.

The newer GF ones definitely short change a bit on the finishing. I posted a thread on WPS and someone highlighted some examples of this.

Unfortunate since I really was close to impulse buying one of the new S series watches lol

[RRJ]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Well, I wouldn't really worry about value retention, just buy used/bottom of the depreciation curve. You'll probably still lose a bit of money but it's no big deal to enjoy great art.

The GF stuff is amazing, especially the older watches but I think Romain Gauthier, MB&F, Voutilainen, Armin Strom, etc... all give you way more value for the dollar.

The newer GF ones definitely short change a bit on the finishing. I posted a thread on WPS and someone highlighted some examples of this.

Unfortunate since I really was close to impulse buying one of the new S series watches lol

Can someone actually point out where exactly they supposedly cut corners in terms of finishing?

I handled numerous watches of the Convexe collection - there are more sharp interior angles than I can count - with the double balancier those interior angles are visible in the front, with the S2 they are mainly visible on the back if you don't count the interior anlges on the wheels. The mainplate of the S2 is hand grained, so is the entirety of the back. The rehaut is mirror polished, all the screws are blackpolished.

I know I'm somewhat of a GF fanboy but I really don't see where they cut back on finishing. The architecture has changed a bit from the old models, the finishing hasn't imo.

But I'm in the same boat as you are when it comes to value - the S2 is way too expensive as of right now, but I'll def be a buyer when they drop down a bit further.

[Oryx]

RG PB and FPJ is a super trio

In terms of GF - I am not sure that some of the finishing is only by hand including the mirror polishing.

I have also seen some of the pics on WPS showing the decline in finishing.

For me the overall direction of the company is not positive with Antonio and now his successor being marketing guys. The two founders have fallen out and Stephen Forsey has now been side lined. Not sure what the Chinese investors have in mind for the brand but I’m sure they do want it to be more commercial and profitable rather than being a brand focused on perfection. Only time will tell but I think there will be a lot of opportunities to snap up GF’s in the secondary market at substantial discounts to the new price.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Forget about value retention if you buy independents. These watches are illiquid, has no market reference for values and only a very small pool of connoisseurs/collectors know about them. Regard them at zero value and buy from that perspective. I'm in the midst of collecting these watches and I still buy the occasional Patek/AP though I love them all.

Well said.

I would add the GF brand while amazing craftsmanship, doesn’t appear to have committed to a model that has lineage.

2 reasons I find this important are
1) the model is less likely to be outshined by the next big thing or a completely revised version
2) it creates a timelessness that in turn provides some stability to value.

The submariner, speedmaster and the FPJ resonance & rexhep CC for that matter all are great examples and demonstrate that even an independent can achieve this.


GF are are clearly amazing watches with top tier finishing, design wise they remind of the bands queens song bohemian rhapsody… they are all over the place, what exactly is going on?