Why the subpar finishing on a 5170?

[aj_tucker]

Hey all,

Looking into my first Patek and thinking a few options: 5205, 3940 and the 5170.

Anyway, in researching these models -- the finishing on the 5170 is irking the hell out of me. Exhibit A: the 5170 vs. 5370 from the illustrious collector Gary G, writing for Quill & Pad:

https://quillandpad.com/wp-content/u...movement_9.jpg

There is a clear difference in the quality, and Gary recognizes this himself.

I realize this is my first Patek, and at my level of collector, it's clear Patek doesn't care about my opinion or demands. But...at $80 MSRP for a watch to not have the highest level of finishing is almost intolerable. I prefer the 5170 case and dial to the 1818 chrono / dato bar none, but the attention to movement finishing and reliability of the Lange make it much more attractive.

Does this bother anyone else? Did it preclude you from buying a watch?

P.S., in case you're curious my thoughts on the other watches...Haven't tried the 5170 or 3940 in the metal - but my impressions are:

- the 3940 will fit best, but I won't wear it everyday and the complication will mostly be useless for me. The case is svelte and discrete and the 3rd series case backs are lovely. the day/night indicator is a bit of a turn off on an otherwise clean dial.
- 5205: has the most compelling case (and potentially the dial, too), great wearability, but same issues above on the complication. The way the movement triggering the day, month, date changes were...awful for a $50k timepiece.
- 5170: known issues for collectibility / resale value, but the R + silver dial is really stunning. The P is gorgeous, but I'd likely have to sell off more than I'm comfortable with to afford it. Plus, I think I prefer gold for my first Patek.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by aj_tucker

Hey all,

Looking into my first Patek and thinking a few options: 5205, 3940 and the 5170.

Anyway, in researching these models -- the finishing on the 5170 is irking the hell out of me. Exhibit A: the 5170 vs. 5370 from the illustrious collector Gary G, writing for Quill & Pad:

https://quillandpad.com/wp-content/u...movement_9.jpg

There is a clear difference in the quality, and Gary recognizes this himself.

I realize this is my first Patek, and at my level of collector, it's clear Patek doesn't care about my opinion or demands. But...at $80 MSRP for a watch to not have the highest level of finishing is almost intolerable. I prefer the 5170 case and dial to the 1818 chrono / dato bar none, but the attention to movement finishing and reliability of the Lange make it much more attractive.

Does this bother anyone else? Did it preclude you from buying a watch?

P.S., in case you're curious my thoughts on the other watches...Haven't tried the 5170 or 3940 in the metal - but my impressions are:

- the 3940 will fit best, but I won't wear it everyday and the complication will mostly be useless for me. The case is svelte and discrete and the 3rd series case backs are lovely. the day/night indicator is a bit of a turn off on an otherwise clean dial.
- 5205: has the most compelling case (and potentially the dial, too), great wearability, but same issues above on the complication. The way the movement triggering the day, month, date changes were...awful for a $50k timepiece.
- 5170: known issues for collectibility / resale value, but the R + silver dial is really stunning. The P is gorgeous, but I'd likely have to sell off more than I'm comfortable with to afford it. Plus, I think I prefer gold for my first Patek.

Congratulations on getting your first Patek (potentially).

I'm not sure you should be using the 5370P as the bench mark, it is a fabulous piece but it is made in the high grand complications department by the very best watch makers Patek has and like only a few other Patek's is double assembled (rattrapante's, tourbillons and minute repeaters). The second and final assembly takes 3 months alone so it isn't surprising to suggest the finishing exceeds the standard of the 5170 in every respect. I should add I also own a Dato and a Zeitwerk and the 5370P in my opinion exceeds the finishing of both Lange's as well - the Lange's look gorgeous due in part to the German silver and blued screws.
The 5170 is a gorgeous piece and is finished to a very high standard - it would not disappoint.

[Bearxj86]

Why not go for a 3970 or 5070?

[martinr]

Have you seen the 5170 in real life? I think you’ll find the finishing is fine. You can buy a new R version for between 55-65K. It’s not 5370 finishing but it’s not 200K either.

[PurpleDial]

Recently faced a similar decision - especially 3940 vs 5205 - and went with the 5205-010 in WG. The design just appealed more to my taste (youthful, digital date, great case design, PP innovation).

Preferred the calendar complication over a chrono as daily use case is office wear, where the date comes in handy. Didnt went with the 3940 as nothing moved on the dial and design was not youthful enough for me (being in my early 30s).

[aj_tucker]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Why not go for a 3970 or 5070?

I absolutely adore the 3970; it's perfect sized for my wrist and the quintessential Patek complication. However, the particular model I would want is ~110k, and that's literally double my budget (second series, 3940R). I'm hoping to keep it around $50k, which I might be able to make work for a 5170R.

The 5070 is just going to be too big for my 6.5'' wrist. A 40mm Daytona / 1680 white sub is about as big as I can get. 39mm is great; 36mm is perfect. My day-date fits the best honestly. That's what keeps me interested in the 3970, but my bank account says 'noooooooo'

I know you just purchased a gorgeous 3970P black dial, and if my stalking is correct, it's your second 3970. How are you enjoying it?

[Codik]

Can someone help me spot the difference in finishing? They both look gorgeous to me. What am I missing?

[aj_tucker]

I don't own the watches, myself - but the article (and pictures) do show that the 5370P has a higher level of finish. I appreciate Russel's comments, so that's nice to hear.

https://quillandpad.com/2017/12/07/b...ference-5170p/

I'm on 'the hunt' so I'll probably bombard this group with rants / questions as I find a way to part with a huge sum of money on a frivolous purchase

[aj_tucker]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Congratulations on getting your first Patek (potentially).

I should add I also own a Dato and a Zeitwerk and the 5370P in my opinion exceeds the finishing of both Lange's as well - the Lange's look gorgeous due in part to the German silver and blued screws.
The 5170 is a gorgeous piece and is finished to a very high standard - it would not disappoint.

How does the 5170 compare to the Lange, in our opinion? Not just the finishing, but robustness, flexibility from a dress standpoint, comfort on the wrist, etc. Thanks! You're a great follow on Insta!

[Vipes]

I wouldn’t consider the finishing of the 5170 “subpar”. It is a different level of finishing than the 5370 but still top notch. I had the 39mm Datograph and 5170P and both are pretty equal in terms of finishing, IMO.

[ap1]

5170 is great, no issues with finishing and tbh I love the backside more than the Lange chrono I also had

[subtona]

would be much happier with the 3940

traded my 5170 (white) for a 5940 (black)

i found the balance of the 5170 dial lacking
(the P version has proper balance imho but i am not into the diamonds)

the 5940 is impeccable from every angle and a heck of bargain (recently saw a white dial for sale at 35k no papers/box), though i concede it is not for everyone... it is one of my favorite daily wears.

[aj_tucker]

Originally Posted by subtona

would be much happier with the 3940

traded my 5170 (white) for a 5940 (black)

i found the balance of the 5170 dial lacking
(the P version has proper balance imho but i am not into the diamonds)

the 5940 is impeccable from every angle and a heck of bargain (recently saw a white dial for sale at 35k no papers/box), though i concede it is not for everyone... it is one of my favorite daily wears.

good feedback, thanks. agreed that the 5170R/G variants lack depth in the dial. Need to see it in the metal before going deeper. How did you find the bezel? seems like a scratch magnet, but that may bother me more than others.

Without firsthand knowledge, I think the 3940 is more my size vs. the 5940, but hopefully I'll get a chance to see it in person soon. Movement is interesting, heritage is a good story, etc. I'm definitely open to it! It screams Patek's elegance.

[Murcielagoboy2]

I’ve recently got my 5170 back from service and I’d forgotten just how spectacular the movement finish is.
I have a Lemania 5070 too and I can’t understand how people think the older movement is finished to a higher standard. I think the 5170 is way better.

That said I don’t expect it to be finished to the same level as 5370 or 5204 - those are watches on another planet as shown by the price.

[AK797]

That side by side is a little disheartening but then the price and comps tell that story.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by aj_tucker

good feedback, thanks. agreed that the 5170R/G variants lack depth in the dial. Need to see it in the metal before going deeper. How did you find the bezel? seems like a scratch magnet, but that may bother me more than others.

Without firsthand knowledge, I think the 3940 is more my size vs. the 5940, but hopefully I'll get a chance to see it in person soon. Movement is interesting, heritage is a good story, etc. I'm definitely open to it! It screams Patek's elegance.

regarding the size?
3940 is 36mm
5940 is 37mm super thin
5170 is 39mm

regarding bezel, it is a smooth polished bezel but it is not so wide as to call attention to itself. scratches on the bezel did not present a distraction for me.

[enjoythemusic]

3940.

Had a 3970er and very much appreciated the level of finishing.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I’ve recently got my 5170 back from service and I’d forgotten just how spectacular the movement finish is.
I have a Lemania 5070 too and I can’t understand how people think the older movement is finished to a higher standard. I think the 5170 is way better.

Agree 100%

[RoscoPico]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Congratulations on getting your first Patek (potentially).

I'm not sure you should be using the 5370P as the bench mark, it is a fabulous piece but it is made in the high grand complications department by the very best watch makers Patek has and like only a few other Patek's is double assembled (rattrapante's, tourbillons and minute repeaters). The second and final assembly takes 3 months alone so it isn't surprising to suggest the finishing exceeds the standard of the 5170 in every respect. I should add I also own a Dato and a Zeitwerk and the 5370P in my opinion exceeds the finishing of both Lange's as well - the Lange's look gorgeous due in part to the German silver and blued screws.
The 5170 is a gorgeous piece and is finished to a very high standard - it would not disappoint.

great feedback. and great watches !!!

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Congratulations on getting your first Patek (potentially).

I'm not sure you should be using the 5370P as the bench mark, it is a fabulous piece but it is made in the high grand complications department by the very best watch makers Patek has and like only a few other Patek's is double assembled (rattrapante's, tourbillons and minute repeaters). The second and final assembly takes 3 months alone so it isn't surprising to suggest the finishing exceeds the standard of the 5170 in every respect. I should add I also own a Dato and a Zeitwerk and the 5370P in my opinion exceeds the finishing of both Lange's as well - the Lange's look gorgeous due in part to the German silver and blued screws.
The 5170 is a gorgeous piece and is finished to a very high standard - it would not disappoint.

Should there really be excuses made for a 5170 at its price point?

[EdwardC]

I have no regret with my 5170r. It's the watch that I never expect to own. Under the loupe I cannot complain any of the finishing. Does it worth the price? You get 7 billions answers by asking everyone in the world. My answer, I will do it again if all variables remain the same.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by subtona

Should there really be excuses made for a 5170 at its price point?

The title of this thread is incorrect.
If you read the original article referenced by the OP there weren’t any excuses, the finishing was top notch on the 5170P - it just lacked something compared to the 5370P (double assembled) including 3 months final assembly in the high grand complications department. Look at the pictures in the article (GaryG takes stunning photos) and you will see just how good the 5170P looks.

[Codik]

Originally Posted by aj_tucker

I don't own the watches, myself - but the article (and pictures) do show that the 5370P has a higher level of finish. I appreciate Russel's comments, so that's nice to hear.



https://quillandpad.com/2017/12/07/b...ference-5170p/



I'm on 'the hunt' so I'll probably bombard this group with rants / questions as I find a way to part with a huge sum of money on a frivolous purchase

Thanks for providing the reference. I’ve read the article, and all he talks about is “oomph” and “glow”. I’m not an expert, so that does not help me.

To me it looks like the 5370P has a prettier and more complex movement, and the photo use is a composite of two photos using different settings and resolution, but I can’t spot the difference in the actual finishing.

What am I missing? Is there something in the photo that makes this obvious to an expert (or a non expert like me). Am not trying to be a smart ass, genuinely curious.

[cmcm3]

Look at it the other way, you’ve bought a 5370 and the finishing is “only” as good as a watch 3-4x cheaper... There needs to be some level of differentiation!!

I seriously doubt 99% of owners are fixated on this beyond the point of purchase and doubt even more that any of this is especially visible to the naked eye.

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by Codik

Thanks for providing the reference. I’ve read the article, and all he talks about is “oomph” and “glow”. I’m not an expert, so that does not help me.

To me it looks like the 5370P has a prettier and more complex movement, and the photo use is a composite of two photos using different settings and resolution, but I can’t spot the difference in the actual finishing.

What am I missing? Is there something in the photo that makes this obvious to an expert (or a non expert like me). Am not trying to be a smart ass, genuinely curious.

I am curious as well.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Russell996

The title of this thread is incorrect.
If you read the original article referenced by the OP there weren’t any excuses, the finishing was top notch on the 5170P - it just lacked something compared to the 5370P (double assembled) including 3 months final assembly in the high grand complications department. Look at the pictures in the article (GaryG takes stunning photos) and you will see just how good the 5170P looks.

[ledzep]

same base movement, the extra parts for the split second in 5370 & 5204 sure add to the complexity and give it more depth. don't think that parts used in both 5170 & 5370 are finished to a different level. i might be wrong.

still not the ultimate in patek finishing in a 5370. interior angles missing, which you already get for a 1858 chrono. with patek (manual chrono) you need to go all the way up to super expensive but outstanding CHR 27-525

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by ledzep

same base movement, the extra parts for the split second in 5370 & 5204 sure add to the complexity and give it more depth. don't think that parts used in both 5170 & 5370 are finished to a different level. i might be wrong.

You are so wrong! Different department within Patek and only the 5370P and higher complications are double assembled.

[aj_tucker]

@Russell996 - Your answer makes sense; if Patek has a special assembly for their highest complications, I suppose there would be a difference.

As mentioned, I have not seen it in the metal - I was merely expressing frustration that there are different levels of finishing at Patek and that an $80k watch doesn't hit the highest level of finishing. The truth is the watch is very much at my upper end of affordability without being reckless (although some might argue it is based on the cost alone and independent of my finances, and I wouldn't have much defense either way - ha!)

Either way, I'm sure I would not need be disappointed considering all of my other watches are rolexes with solid case backs.

I'm vacillating on many options (including a 5164a at grey prices) but will surely post here when it's landed. Not likely until the late fall or winter.

[martinr]

So if a movement is triple assembled it’s better than double assembled? At what point is the finishing good enough? Basically finishing is some guy hunched over a workbench with a buff stick or tool rubbing it back and forth on a tiny piece of metal, usually on the edge. And without a powerful loupe or a macro lens and a blown up photo it’s practically impossible to tell how “good” it is.