Seller claims "NOS"

[VonSomething]

Just bought this 16570 that the seller advertised as NOS. The pictures in the listing weren't super sharp or high resolution so had to take a gamble (covered by return policy, so no real risk).

Watch shows up and it's very clear the clasp has been rebrushed/polished. The bracelet however is tight with no play.

I've shown it to a couple of guys that gave me their opinion and I as well am quite convinced it's refurbished.

Would appreciate some extra eyes and opinions on it.

[sportsfan0704]

Definitely not NOS. That term has been diminished largely by people using it to describe older watches in mint condition. the watch is in excellent condition though. If you paid pre-owned explorer 2 pricing I'd say keep it, if you paid NOS pricing I'd want a refund

[VonSomething]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

Definitely not NOS. That term has been diminished largely by people using it to describe older watches in mint condition. the watch is in excellent condition though. If you paid pre-owned explorer 2 pricing I'd say keep it, if you paid NOS pricing I'd want a refund

That is the problem, I paid NOS pricing.

I agree, the condition is excellent for a pre-owned at a fair price.

[Dan S]

Cratering around lug holes shows machine polishing.

[Juhuatai]

Not NOS by a mile.

[G3Z]

Lovely example- but definitely not NOS.

[Filipão]

Please help us to avoid that seller by disclosing his name and location.

Maybe after you get the refund... if he's as dishonest as I suspect.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by G3Z

Lovely example- but definitely not NOS.

Perhaps lovely, but we don't know because the most important part, the dial, isn't shown. OP, can we see the whole watch?

And stated as above, this watch is miles from NOS. I've seen/had polished watches that didn't have cratered lug holes like that.

[brandrea]

It’s a nice looking watch. What sort of premium did you pay for NOS?

[XavierM]

Have you checked the condition of the engravings ?
Quite hard to keep this area new when the watch is worn
How does the bezel look like ? (Same, hard to wear an Expl II without scratching this part)
Are your pictures true to what you see with a loupe ? (Phone cameras sometimes have a tendency to over correct reality)
What surprises me is that, if polished, the watch look extremely well done on several aspects and poorly done on the sides (lug hole cratering, chamfers)

[VonSomething]

Originally Posted by XavierM

Have you checked the condition of the engravings ?
Quite hard to keep this area new when the watch is worn
How does the bezel look like ? (Same, hard to wear an Expl II without scratching this part)
Are your pictures true to what you see with a loupe ? (Phone cameras sometimes have a tendency to over correct reality)
What surprises me is that, if polished, the watch look extremely well done on several aspects and poorly done on the sides (lug hole cratering, chamfers)

I have not checked the engravings on the case, I have found enough signs that I don't think it's necessary. Besides, if someone has gone through the trouble of completely refinishing the case, they would have cleaned up that area as well.

I've taken a few pictures of the bezel, as well as some more pictures. There are a few marks on the bezel, but could in theory be handling marks. I've seen people refinish these bezels completely back to new conditions, so I don't think no marks at all would be evidence of a new bezel.

The dealer is not anyone active on this forum (European dealer on Chrono24). He's just a fish in the ocean though, 90% of all sellers that list something vintage as "unworn" are clearly lying about the condition, easily caught just from the pictures in the listings.

Here are additional pictures.

[joli160]

Polished and done by somebody who forgot to plug the holes before touching the wheel.
Far from NOS

[Incroyable12]

These days you can have trashed cases and bracelets laser welded and nobody would be the wiser if a dealer claimed it was NOS.

I believe it's absolutely impossible to tell with quality laser welding.

[Dan S]

That seller is a blatant liar. A NOS watch can certainly have some marks from handling (like the scuff on the bezel), but it should not be badly dinged up and poorly polished on a buffing wheel.

You take good photos, BTW.

[FWS]

I’m really sorry you’re having to deal with this. Must be very disappointing.

[mountainjogger]

I would be very dissapointed if I paid a NOS premium.

Hope you get this sorted.

[ronricks]

If I had a dollar for every time someone tried to sell a watch as ‘NOS’ that has tattered stickers with dirt and grime under them along with scratches etc I’d be rich. A true NOS piece doesn’t have tattered stickers with dirt and grime under them. It’s been worn a lot. Simply having stickers on a watch does not = NOS.

[Tools]

No reseller can sell NOS, that is a term for Original Dealer Stock that has been unsold.

Resellers can claim anything, and they use descriptions with abandon for nothing more than increasing their profit.

[dannyp]

That would also have to be realllllllllly “O” as well. Drilled lugs went away a while ago. What’s on the warranty paperwork? As Tools said, true NOS would not only be from original retailers but works have blank paperwork, too.

[indianmachine]

In this day and age when the seller seems to claim anything and the premium for NOS is so high, don't really understand the appeal of buying NOS you can't even wear it.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Tools

No reseller can sell NOS, that is a term for Original Dealer Stock that has been unsold.

Resellers can claim anything, and they use descriptions with abandon for nothing more than increasing their profit.

Good point, strictly speaking, this is true. However, I wouldn't be unhappy if a seller used the term to refer to a watch they purchased in NOS condition from a dealer and never removed from the box.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Good point, strictly speaking, this is true. However, I wouldn't be unhappy if a seller used the term to refer to a watch they purchased in NOS condition from a dealer and never removed from the box.

Tools pretty much nailed it, but for me, NOS means "new old stock" or even "new-in-the-box." I would assume Tools meant original dealer stock that remains unsold would be referring to discontinued items.

Back when I was restoring vintage Mustang, original Autolite, Motorcraft or Ford parts brought a premium if they were new-in-the-box and unused.

[tekno]

Like the guys said NOS Means in the box & unworn… in the original packaging etc.

I remember when I first started buying watches in 2004/5 ish there were NOS Rolex in the box that were a couple years old.

Once it’s removed from the package, it’s “like new”.

Get your $ back!

[77T]

So hard to tell. Depending upon its history, e.g., being passed along between dealers as NOS, it could pick up some issues.

As far as dealer stock NOS - if the papers are blank then it’s possible it passed from an AD to a resale dealer. But back then the Expl. II wasn’t gaining value exponentially like a Daytona was.

I don’t agree it was “machine polished” since the plastic is still on the midcase sides. Although the ends are peeled back 1 cm at the lugs, nobody could get that done with the plastic on.

If you paid $1K more than true NOS, and you plan on wearing it, then chalk it up to experience. But much more than that deserves a request for a partial adjustment back to you.

If the dealer is at all insulting, then exercise the return option, get the refund, and by all means share who it was. My guess today would be a dealer whose business name begins with a “B” HQ’d in CA, or an “S” HQ’d in GA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by brandrea

It’s a nice looking watch. What sort of premium did you pay for NOS?

Originally Posted by 77T

So hard to tell. Depending upon its history, e.g., being passed along between dealers as NOS, it could pick up some issues.

As far as dealer stock NOS - if the papers are blank then it’s possible it passed from an AD to a resale dealer. But back then the Expl. II wasn’t gaining value exponentially like a Daytona was.

I don’t agree it was “machine polished” since the plastic is still on the midcase sides. Although the ends are peeled back 1 cm at the lugs, nobody could get that done with the plastic on.

If you paid $1K more than true NOS, and you plan on wearing it, then chalk it up to experience. But much more than that deserves a request for a partial adjustment back to you.

If the dealer is at all insulting, then exercise the return option, get the refund, and by all means share who it was. My guess today would be a dealer whose business name begins with a “B” HQ’d in CA, or an “S” HQ’d in GA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Bumping my question and dove tailing into Paul’s comments …

Perhaps the real question here is did you get good value for what you’ve paid relative to what you’ve received.

[yowlie]

NIB and NOS are different. Almost every NOS claim is false. NOS is not a condition; it is a sales status. If a Rolex is still in a dealer's case, like an old 16570 or 16618 that never sold, it is NOS.

[springer]

Originally Posted by yowlie

NIB and NOS are different. Almost every NOS claim is false. NOS is not a condition; it is a sales status. If a Rolex is still in a dealer's case, like an old 16570 or 16618 that never sold, it is NOS.

So, if I walk into that dealer and buy the NOS 16570, assuming NOS means new old stock, are you are telling me it is not NOS anymore once I purchase it? If you are, I will have to disagree with your comment since NOS is NOS, no matter who has the item in their possession and they keep it in the original NOS condition. NOS is a collector term, a descriptor, used by not only some dealers but collectors too. Why would any collector pay retail or premium NOS prices for a watch from a dealer and then, once he leaves the store, the watch is no longer NOS? NOS watches have a collector value, just like any item that someone chooses to collect. Anyone can find and collect a preowned, used item for their collection but finding and owning a collector piece that is NOS and decades old is what collectors prize.

The definition for NOS can vary, depending on who is using it and their interpretation. For me, NOS has always meant new old stock. Also, as yowlie wrote, NIB, new in the box, is not the same as NOS.

If anyone cares to read more about NOS, try a google search which isn't much help. Wikipedia does have a page for NOS and it can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock

[2loaded]

Ouch... Utilize the return policy ASAP

[yowlie]

Good points. I guess I would agree. One might say in your example the watch was acquired NOS and would always be NOS, if unused, since it was bought new after the production period. It sat on the shelf a long time as "stock," so that's why you should see a purchase date after the end of production . . . .

Originally Posted by springer

So, if I walk into that dealer and buy the NOS 16570, assuming NOS means new old stock, are you are telling me it is not NOS anymore once I purchase it? If you are, I will have to disagree with your comment since NOS is NOS, no matter who has the item in their possession and they keep it in the original NOS condition. NOS is a collector term, a descriptor, used by not only some dealers but collectors too. Why would any collector pay retail or premium NOS prices for a watch from a dealer and then, once he leaves the store, the watch is no longer NOS? NOS watches have a collector value, just like any item that someone chooses to collect. Anyone can find and collect a preowned, used item for their collection but finding and owning a collector piece that is NOS and decades old is what collectors prize.

The definition for NOS can vary, depending on who is using it and their interpretation. For me, NOS has always meant new old stock. Also, as yowlie wrote, NIB, new in the box, is not the same as NOS.

If anyone cares to read more about NOS, try a google search which isn't much help. Wikipedia does have a page for NOS and it can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock

[offrdmania]

If it were NOS and those stickers have been on there this whole time, there would be so much stickum left over on the watch and they would not peel off with ease