Help for an AP novice?

[Swaye]

Hi all,

So, I am wait listed for a couple Rolex (and have been forever), so I've been thinking about moving into other areas. I really like the looks of a great deal of PAMs and AP, but wanted to pulse the expert here and get some basic direction.

So, I have learned the basics of the Royal Oak. But do not even have 5% of the knowledge on AP that I have on Rolex. For a relative novice, if you were to call out the 3-5 most basic meat and potatoes AP's, what are they? If someone asks me "What watches really personify Rolex sport watches," I would quickly answer Submariner (date or ND), Pepsi GMT and Daytona - those three show all the Rolex design DNA from the last 50 years, to me. The bread and butter.

So, what are the APs bread and butter references? I see ROO, and ROC, and Diver, and 15XXX and kind of glaze over - just like learning Rolex numbers and history and watches years ago. Just not familiar enough yet. So, if you were going to advise a new person on which few APs to look at, that really have the design DNA of AP, what are they? I need to start learning so instead of being confused I'd prefer to start with basic references and go from there.

I can tell you I do like Pandas, I love the Havana dial (likely not a "bread and butter" AP), and even though I have some larger Rolex, I think I would prefer 42MM. On that, do AP's wear large, small, or in the middle? If a 44MM AP wears like an Explorer II, then 44MM is back in play.

I appreciate any feedback for an AP novice. Thanks all.

edit: Forgot to mention, SS only. I do not think I can afford AP PM stuff.

[benlee]

Usually, one start with a Royal Oak
The 15500 series of SS Royal Oaks are the entry level APs although nowadays, like SS Rolex, they are hard to come by. Since you mentioned you like Panda dials, you might want to check out the 26331s ROC.

[AK797]

You like Divers so I'd go with that, was my first AP as well, great all round watch, 42mm, plus available to buy unlike most ROs now. Try on a SS Panda 44mm but that's maybe a better second piece once you get used to the more muscular nature of ROOs.

[karasus]

AP started making high end complication watches since 1875, these include the perpetual calendar, split second chronograph, tourbillon and minute repeater. That's the history, AP is known for hand finishing on movements, cases and for their recognizable design. Iconic modern watches include the Royal Oak, Royal Oak Offshore, AP Concept watches, Millenary, and certain limited edition racing pieces.

The Royal Oak is a prominent part of the Brand, it was designed by Gerald Genta one of the who introduced the concept of an integrated bracelet, industrial design and steel (an industrial material) to luxury watches. Genta also designed the IWC ingenieur, nautilus, omega constellation, a quartz early prototype of the date just, universal geneve polaris, Bvlgari octo and many other important watches amongest all brands. Genta is the father of modern watch design, his influence is seen in many of today's watches that feature integrated bracelets and industrial materials. The Royal Oak was Genta's first iconic design, and is considered by many collectors as the turning point in watch design for the 20th century.

That's a bit of the history and as a result, with AP you get iconic design and high horology options.


Coming from Rolex the follow AP watches and Rolex equivalents:

Vintage:
5402ST A series (og royal oak) = Paul Newman Daytona

5402ST B C / 25721ST D (og offshore) = Big Crown

5402ST E D = Small Crown

25721ST E (JLC movement) = Zenith Daytona (steel)

Modern:

15202 = Daytona C

15300ST blue = Batman (oyster BLNR disco)

15400 / 15500 / Royal oak chrono blue = Pepsi

15400 / 15500 / royal oak chrono other colors = Hulk

15450 / The Beast 25th anniversary blue = submariner date C

15450 others = submariner no date C

*note this is not a precise list just to get an idea of desirable pieces.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by karasus

AP started making high end complication watches since 1875, these include the perpetual calendar, split second chronograph, tourbillon and minute repeater. That's the history, AP is known for hand finishing on movements, cases and for their recognizable design. Iconic modern watches include the Royal Oak, Royal Oak Offshore, AP Concept watches, Millenary, and certain limited edition racing pieces.

The Royal Oak is a prominent part of the Brand, it was designed by Gerald Genta one of the who introduced the concept of an integrated bracelet, industrial design and steel (an industrial material) to luxury watches. Genta also designed the IWC ingenieur, nautilus, omega constellation, a quartz early prototype of the date just, universal geneve polaris, Bvlgari octo and many other important watches amongest all brands. Genta is the father of modern watch design, his influence is seen in many of today's watches that feature integrated bracelets and industrial materials. The Royal Oak was Genta's first iconic design, and is considered by many collectors as the turning point in watch design for the 20th century.

That's a bit of the history and as a result, with AP you get iconic design and high horology options.


Coming from Rolex the follow AP watches and Rolex equivalents:

Vintage:
5402ST A series (og royal oak) = Paul Newman Daytona

5402ST B C / 25721ST D (og offshore) = Big Crown

5402ST E D = Small Crown

25721ST E (JLC movement) = Zenith Daytona (steel)

Modern:

15202 = Daytona C

15300ST blue = Batman (oyster BLNR disco)

15400 / 15500 / Royal oak chrono blue = Pepsi

15400 / 15500 / royal oak chrono other colors = Hulk

15450 / The Beast 25th anniversary blue = submariner date C

15450 others = submariner no date C

*note this is not a precise list just to get an idea of desirable pieces.

Thanks to all who have responded but this breakdown and their Rolex comparable is SUPER helpful! Huge huge thanks for this!

[mnl]

Don’t have as much knowledge about the history as others do so I don’t have much to add there, besides saying that a classic one where people usually start is a Royal Oak. Something like a 15400/15500 or a 15450 if you have smaller wrists. The 15202 is one that a lot of people love since it’s very close to the original design, but personally not a huge fan since it doesn’t have a seconds hand and there’s no quick set date, so you have to go back and forth between ~9pm and 3am to change the date. (Also it’s really hard to get!)

But APs definitely wear large. In my opinion you should really try to see one in person and try it on before deciding if the size is right for you. From numbers alone I thought the 41mm 15400 would’ve been okay for me, but in reality it is really big so I ended up with a 37mm 15450 which fits me perfectly.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by mnl

Don’t have as much knowledge about the history as others do so I don’t have much to add there, besides saying that a classic one where people usually start is a Royal Oak. Something like a 15400/15500 or a 15450 if you have smaller wrists. The 15202 is one that a lot of people love since it’s very close to the original design, but personally not a huge fan since it doesn’t have a seconds hand and there’s no quick set date, so you have to go back and forth between ~9pm and 3am to change the date. (Also it’s really hard to get!)

But APs definitely wear large. In my opinion you should really try to see one in person and try it on before deciding if the size is right for you. From numbers alone I thought the 41mm 15400 would’ve been okay for me, but in reality it is really big so I ended up with a 37mm 15450 which fits me perfectly.

That is really good to know! I am just starting initial research now, and would never buy my first of anything without trying it on (hopefully) - there are no AP boutiques near me, so we shall see.

[RolexZen]

Originally Posted by mnl

The 15202 is one that a lot of people love since it’s very close to the original design, but personally not a huge fan since it doesn’t have a seconds hand and there’s no quick set date...

Nonetheless, it is the quintessential Royal Oak.

Originally Posted by mnl

... and there’s no quick set date, so you have to go back and forth between ~9pm and 3am to change the date.

Well, it’s 10:45pm to 12:10AM, so just a quick flick back and forth. But yes, not nearly as convenient as a true quickset date function.

Originally Posted by mnl

(Also it’s really hard to get!)

[mnl]

Originally Posted by RolexZen

Nonetheless, it is the quintessential Royal Oak.

Yep! That’s why I mentioned it, just personally prefer the other versions.

Well, it’s 10:45pm to 12:10AM, so just a quick flick back and forth. But yes, not nearly as convenient as a true quickset date function.

Ahh okay, I knew there’s a faster way but couldn’t remember the exact times to use. This is a bit better than what I thought it was!

[GB-man]

I recommend a 15500ST or 15710st for an entry to the brand 42mm or below. If your wrist is 7''+ I would seriously entertain 44 ti or Ce.

[HarryLime]

Everyone else pretty much nailed it, but just to add some extra info...

The original original original Royal Oak, the 5402 "jumbo" or "ultra thin" came out in 1972, was 39mm, and was basically AP's first foray into sports watches. At the time, the steel 5402 was priced similarly to Rolex's GOLD watches, so it was somewhat controversial. Also controversial was the choice to leave the screwheads (actually bolts) visible on a luxury watch. There were about 2000 5402 A-series watches produced (all are numbered), and then after those initial 2000, there were 1000 B-series, 1000 C-series, and 1000 D-series (all still reference 5402).

Back to current day, the 15202 is the modern tribute to the original 5402, right down to having the same 2121 movement. It's the same 39mm as the original and has no seconds hand. And it's fucking impossible to get at retail. Probably more difficult than the Pepsi.

[myusernamez]

Originally Posted by AK797

You like Divers so I'd go with that, was my first AP as well, great all round watch, 42mm, plus available to buy unlike most ROs now. Try on a SS Panda 44mm but that's maybe a better second piece once you get used to the more muscular nature of ROOs.

What's the wait for the 42MM Diver?

I had requested the 15710ST.OO.A085CA.01 but no availability said the AD.

Same for the 15710ST.OO.A010CA.01.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Everyone else pretty much nailed it, but just to add some extra info...

The original original original Royal Oak, the 5402 "jumbo" or "ultra thin" came out in 1972, was 39mm, and was basically AP's first foray into sports watches. At the time, the steel 5402 was priced similarly to Rolex's GOLD watches, so it was somewhat controversial. Also controversial was the choice to leave the screwheads (actually bolts) visible on a luxury watch. There were about 2000 5402 A-series watches produced (all are numbered), and then after those initial 2000, there were 1000 B-series, 1000 C-series, and 1000 D-series (all still reference 5402).

Back to current day, the 15202 is the modern tribute to the original 5402, right down to having the same 2121 movement. It's the same 39mm as the original and has no seconds hand. And it's fucking impossible to get at retail. Probably more difficult than the Pepsi.

Great info. Thank you! I really appreciate all the wonderful comments and knowledge everyone has shared. I try to be helpful to new Rolex collectors on the main board, and it is so nice to see that reciprocated here. Thanks!

[Swaye]

And just for fun, so far, in my search, I am really liking the 41MM ROC with Panda dial. A real stunner. If anyone has one I'd love to see wrist shots!

[Swaye]

Another question for you all.

I am headed to Doha, Qatar on business in July. They have a boutique in Doha. So, I can try stuff on, and potentially buy one out there. How many AP's are difficult to source right now? Is it like Rolex and Patek, where everything is on a long list, or are there some good references that you can just walk in and buy?

Not expecting anyone to have an answer for Doha specifically, just more AP market generally?

Or is it smarter to do try on's at a boutique wherever, and buy back stateside from a TS? Basically, are there waiting lists and well above MSRP pricing on lots of things, or are there better deals to be had on LNIB 2018's from a TS back home?

TIA

[RolexZen]

Originally Posted by Swaye

Another question for you all.

I am headed to Doha, Qatar on business in July. They have a boutique in Doha. So, I can try stuff on, and potentially buy one out there. How many AP's are difficult to source right now? Is it like Rolex and Patek, where everything is on a long list, or are there some good references that you can just walk in and buy?

Not expecting anyone to have an answer for Doha specifically, just more AP market generally?

Or is it smarter to do try on's at a boutique wherever, and buy back stateside from a TS? Basically, are there waiting lists and well above MSRP pricing on lots of things, or are there better deals to be had on LNIB 2018's from a TS back home?

TIA

I shopped for my first AP while on business travel to Singapore, where they have two boutiques and numerous ADs (there are none in Atlanta). At that time, those storefronts only had a few of the hot stainless steel models in stock, but they always had corresponding PM models for me to try on for sizing.

That was about 15 months ago. They probably have even fewer of the hot stainless steel models in stock now, but the boutiques would likely still have PM models for comparison.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by RolexZen

I shopped for my first AP while on business travel to Singapore, where they have two boutiques and numerous ADs (there are none in Atlanta). At that time, those storefronts only had a few of the hot stainless steel models in stock, but they always had corresponding PM models for me to try on for sizing.

That was about 15 months ago. They probably have even fewer of the hot stainless steel models in stock now, but the boutiques would likely still have PM models for comparison.

Great thank you!

[calh22a]

Originally Posted by Swaye

Another question for you all.

I am headed to Doha, Qatar on business in July. They have a boutique in Doha. So, I can try stuff on, and potentially buy one out there. How many AP's are difficult to source right now? Is it like Rolex and Patek, where everything is on a long list, or are there some good references that you can just walk in and buy?

Not expecting anyone to have an answer for Doha specifically, just more AP market generally?

Or is it smarter to do try on's at a boutique wherever, and buy back stateside from a TS? Basically, are there waiting lists and well above MSRP pricing on lots of things, or are there better deals to be had on LNIB 2018's from a TS back home?

TIA

I think you may have a hard time finding a 15500 SS sitting in the display. I called around the US AP boutiques a few months ago and was told no allocations left for any 15500 for the year.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by calh22a

I think you may have a hard time finding a 15500 SS sitting in the display. I called around the US AP boutiques a few months ago and was told no allocations left for any 15500 for the year.

Nearly impossible I'd think.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Nearly impossible I'd think.

So it isn't just Rolex....

[AK797]

Originally Posted by myusernamez

What's the wait for the 42MM Diver?

I had requested the 15710ST.OO.A085CA.01 but no availability said the AD.

Same for the 15710ST.OO.A010CA.01.

The black Diver should be a few months, depending on your locale, the whites could be much harder to find now, think these will mostly have been snapped up.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Swaye

So it isn't just Rolex....

Rolex and PP sports are the worst but AP ROs are fast catching up, as you'd expect of this viable alternative, while the ROOs are still fairly available for a short wait.

[Swaye]

Originally Posted by AK797

Rolex and PP sports are the worst but AP ROs are fast catching up, as you'd expect of this viable alternative, while the ROOs are still fairly available for a short wait.

I'm going to try stuff on in Doha next month, even if it is the PM versions, and just see how they feel on the wrist. You know how that goes, it will either fit like a glove and I will be smitten, or it won't be for me. I'll know in a month or so.